37 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

Probably Not, on 18 February 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

I could probably come up with better map designs. That's really ******* lazy.

No, it is intentional design. Russ has said himself that he prefers to have mas with a central focus and that is how they are designed for the most part.

[MacClearly]

Like others have mentioned one of the best part of conquest is the chance of getting a few different fights around the map. If you actually think about it, that requires one or both teams to derp a bit. The best strat is usually for everyone to stay together except for a couple of quick mechs to cap. Then the bulk of the two forces head to theta for the usual fight that generally happens in the same place as it would on the map in skirmish or assault.... Sometimes however the stars align and you get really get light battles and fast flanks. It can be magical and engaging.

However I know it is not going to be magical when I see that DireWhale heading to cap gamma.... I know I am in for a rough match when this kind of dbagery is going on.

[Kasumi Sumika]

I like Conquest because it have more extra C-Bills bonus when your team capping.

[meteorol]

I dislike conquest because of the "but muh conquest is for capping" grognards who are throwing game after game after game.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

I see your point, you can either win it through cap at the start or kill outright and cap afterwards.

One gets you lots of money, one gets you barely anything for the win. I wonder what most people want to pick...

Kill kill kill is kinda promoted because Conquest fails to reward people aiming for the objective. The main thing you have to do is set the expectation to the team RIGHT at the start so everyone's on-board. Otherwise it's headless chicken time.

[Variant1]

Conquest the worst mode imo.
one team goes for caps the other team kills them.
in group its probably good but in pugs its terrible. Almost always one team goes caps and gets destroyed by other team because going for kills is much easier

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Probably Not, on 17 February 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

I actually don't understand why Conquest is disliked. It's fun. Some maps for it are pretty poorly laid out, but it's fun.

Someone explain to me why Conquest is disliked.

Because it is not 2014 anymore... so Conquest does not actually exist on any map but Polar in extraordinary circumstances. It is skirmish with control points that makes already pug players play worse cause they are not smart enough to know to Conquest as a mode was killed by PGI years ago. Now that it only takes 15 seconds to de-cap instead of a minute it is no longer viable to even attempt a cap win in anything but the furthermost outliers of all the matches played.

Conquest in FW is actually quite fun cause that turns into a strategic cap battle even after they raised the cap limit... but in Group or PUG queue it is totally pointless.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 19 February 2017 - 02:23 PM.

[Lykaon]

Phoolan Devi, on 18 February 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

This "strategy" tends to loose conquest, rather than wins it. Lights and fast mediums should generally never get into combat at conquest!

This strategy works nearly every time and here is why.

ALL the maps have a conquest point that is a contested point by both teams (Theta on River City and Tourmilane for example). If each side caps the closest two points to their deployment as is normal they will then move towards the contested point and that is where the main fight happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's predictable and easy to follow.

So if all the fast light and mediums are not fighting what are they doing? Running around capping points and fighting eachother right?

Here is the problem with this plan.

one: Light mech vs light mech fights are time consuming and rarely decisive. Frequently the winner is in tough shape after spending a good long time locked in combat. Sure the enemy is down a light but a stiff breeze will KO your mech.

Two: Capping isn't as important as dispatching the enemy IF you both hold two caps. Now I said that on larger maps you should use your fastest mech to attempt to grab the enemy's starting cap (the one furthest from your deployment) If this succeeds you will hold three caps the enemy will have two if they didn't also fly off like a bat outa hell and efficently cap points.

It is more likely that your opponents will do the typical thing. Everyone bumbles over to the closest cap point at best speed and wastes time standing around when a fast light could grab it and be gone (back with the rest of the team). Frequently the bumbling around lasts over a minute as players decide what to do next. Maybe a few bumble over to next closest cap. Maybe they ignore it completely but what ever they do it's not on plan and not organized.

So if your team moves directly to the likely point of contact TOGETHER they will likely face the enemy team as they trickle over after bumbling about. This gets you a numbers advantage.

The real purpose of taking the third point on large maps is BAIT. The lead your team gains early on will motivate the enemy light mechs to cap. Since they are running around capping they are not in the fight. This is yet another means of gaining the numbers advantage.

If they ignore the caps they lose on points if they do cap they engage your forces under strength.

Now with your plan you have fast mechs running around grabbing caps and encountering either no resistance (meaning your team mates are fighting under strength because the enemy fast mechs are in the main fight or you are only trading caps with no clear advantages) If you are engaged by the enemy light mechs you get stuck in a drawn out furball since fast light mechs rarely kill each other efficently and ...no one is capping because...fighting.

There isn't a diffinative advantage to your plan.

My strategy does by manipulating the situation to increase the odds of fighting against the enemy with a numbers advatage.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Probably Not, on 19 February 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

That simply does not line up at all with my personal experience. Cap wins are not only viable, they're the best option on most Conquest maps. Only maps I can think of where you'd ever be better off killing over capping is Canyon Network and Viridian Bog. A cap win is objectively the BEST way to win HPG Conquest and Tourmaline Conquest. IF your enemy drew the short straw on having fast lights and mediums on HPG, all you have to do is get them to contest Theta, draw as many of them as you can into the basement there, BOTTLE THEM UP and let your fast runners cap the other points.

Your entire strategy is reliant upon first the enemy team being f*cked by matchmakers... then on them being utterly incompetent to the point they let a smaller number of mechs then them hold them in a position they can choose to leave from 4 different points. Sorry dude... if that is your strat then I congrat you for being lucky enough that the matchmaker scoops up the worst players available to put on your enemies team, cause it requires not just a lack of skill but anti-skill for your "plan" to work.

[METAL SEPARATOR]

Conquest is the best mode in game.

[Ghogiel]

Conquest is probably the best comp game mode. playing modes like it with puggles isn't very refreshing

[meteorol]

Ghogiel, on 20 February 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

Conquest is probably the best comp game mode. playing modes like it with puggles isn't very refreshing

Never played comp, but just from watching casts it surely is the most entertaining to watch. It forces movement to a certain degree without leading to foreseeable brawlpushes like domination does... Skirmish... shudder. Can remind a few matches i spectated in earlier days of comp play that ended as a draw after 15 min because neither team was willing to commit to push.

With puggles though? It's hell. People focusing caps on goddamn mining collective. One lance on each cap, spreading over the whole goddamn map. inevitable blowout, lances getting picked by the murderball 4v12 one after another... BUT MUH CONQUEST IS FOR CAPPING they scream while getting rolled 0:12 in 3 minutes with 60 damage each.

[Ghogiel]

meteorol, on 20 February 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Never played comp, but just from watching casts it surely is the most entertaining to watch. It forces movement to a certain degree without leading to foreseeable brawlpushes like domination does... Skirmish... shudder. Can remind a few matches i spectated in earlier days of comp play that ended as a draw after 15 min because neither team was willing to commit to push.

With puggles though? It's hell. People focusing caps on goddamn mining collective. One lance on each cap, spreading over the whole goddamn map. inevitable blowout, lances getting picked by the murderball 4v12 one after another... BUT MUH CONQUEST IS FOR CAPPING they scream while getting rolled 0:12 in 3 minutes with 60 damage each.

PUG LIFE

[Deathlike]

Winning on Conquest guarantees you 37.5k C-bills. Of all modes, this provides the most value for your time.

The trick really is to kill more mechs as possibly as early as possible. Your cap situation is only as limited or as controllable to the number of people still alive on your team.

That shouldn't be a shocker though.

[Lykaon]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 19 February 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Because it is not 2014 anymore... so Conquest does not actually exist on any map but Polar in extraordinary circumstances. It is skirmish with control points that makes already pug players play worse cause they are not smart enough to know to Conquest as a mode was killed by PGI years ago. Now that it only takes 15 seconds to de-cap instead of a minute it is no longer viable to even attempt a cap win in anything but the furthermost outliers of all the matches played.

Conquest in FW is actually quite fun cause that turns into a strategic cap battle even after they raised the cap limit... but in Group or PUG queue it is totally pointless.

Here's the trick to it.

The conquest resource score ticking up to 750 is just another clock. One that can be manipulated by capping/uncapping.

It's important not to completely ignore the "resource" clock lest you end up winning the fight and having a span of 50 points remaining to chase down a pair of ECM light mechs and uncap everything. You can still lose even if you have the battle won.

In addition to being aware of the resource score being just another timer on the match it's also yummy bait. If you pull a lead off early on the resource count your opposition may (will) be tempted to dedicate resources to capping and that diverts resources from fighting you. Since they will be playing make up points to catch your lead by capping you have effectivley exstended the "resource" clock out to give more time to defeat the enemy. They may eventually pull a resource lead but since they were fighting under strength you probably spanked them hard and now the only mechs they have are the fast capping mechs that now need to contend with fighting the rest of your team.

The surviving cappers will also have the joyless task of fighting you on cap points if you have enough mechs to sit one (or more) on each cap point. This deminishes one of the advantages the faster mechs have,Speed is now a diminished factor because the fight is centered on a tiny point on the map (the cap point). They need to fight you off a cap to take it and need to do it there.

But mostly in puggy land it's about destroying mechs to win.

Edited by Lykaon, 20 February 2017 - 12:44 PM.

[Metus regem]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 18 February 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

From the viewpoint of a light pilot:

-drops into match. Is the only light, and is a slow light-

"lights, please cap."

"lights, please scout."

"only one of me, can't do both. which do you want me to do?"

-is ignored, team continues to wander off in the Four Winds Formation-

-caps first and second points because the other team already has theta, comes back to find the whole team dead-

"WTF STUPID LIGHTS WHY DIDN'T YOU SCOUT!?"

"...I'm capping, because this is conquest. Theta is taken, you know they're all there - and you STILL walked in, one mech at a time in a death conga line and failed."

"Noob lights! uninstall!"

Yeah. The life of a light pilot in conquest. I'll take skirmish any day, please.

Try it in a Locust... now when they all die, they want you to cap for the win.... they forget that you will have to fight too....

Last time that happend, I had capped three points, my team died, and I had to fight 8 mechs... do you know how hard it is to cap when they can put more than one to two mechs on a point....

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lykaon, on 20 February 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Here's the trick to it.

The conquest resource score ticking up to 750 is just another clock. One that can be manipulated by capping/uncapping.

It's important not to completely ignore the "resource" clock lest you end up winning the fight and having a span of 50 points remaining to chase down a pair of ECM light mechs and uncap everything. You can still lose even if you have the battle won.

In addition to being aware of the resource score being just another timer on the match it's also yummy bait. If you pull a lead off early on the resource count your opposition may (will) be tempted to dedicate resources to capping and that diverts resources from fighting you. Since they will be playing make up points to catch your lead by capping you have effectivley exstended the "resource" clock out to give more time to defeat the enemy. They may eventually pull a resource lead but since they were fighting under strength you probably spanked them hard and now the only mechs they have are the fast capping mechs that now need to contend with fighting the rest of your team.

The surviving cappers will also have the joyless task of fighting you on cap points if you have enough mechs to sit one (or more) on each cap point. This deminishes one of the advantages the faster mechs have,Speed is now a diminished factor because the fight is centered on a tiny point on the map (the cap point). They need to fight you off a cap to take it and need to do it there.

But mostly in puggy land it's about destroying mechs to win.

since both sides get 2 cap points and you fight over the 3rd... what you are talking about is only the extreme cases that constitute less than 1% of all matches played. the timer stops if you get shot and it only takes 15 seconds to decap a point... so what you describe is rarely if ever seen outside of polar which I already said was the only viable map for those extreme examples to happen.

[Lykaon]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 20 February 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

since both sides get 2 cap points and you fight over the 3rd... what you are talking about is only the extreme cases that constitute less than 1% of all matches played. the timer stops if you get shot and it only takes 15 seconds to decap a point... so what you describe is rarely if ever seen outside of polar which I already said was the only viable map for those extreme examples to happen.

so less than 1% (love arbitrary percentages) of conquest matches have resource collection as an objective? Or is it "less than 1%" of conquest games that players capture objectives?

Because in my experience 100% ( non arbitrary percentage) of conquests have cap points that IF they count up to 750 pnts you win.

The resource clock is ticking and it's a real factor for conquest. Ignore it at your own peril.

So if you ignore the cap points and the enemy isn't kind enough to let them kill you fast enough (because the resources are ticking) you lose.

You just can't count on more than 99% of conquests being just another skirmish.

The vast majority of conquests played in the solo queue go down like this...

Each team bumbles over to the two closest cap points to their deployment. There is not decisive formation or heading they just blunder over and sit on it (usually for longer than it takes to cap it).

Maybe some of the light mechs tear of to where ever they think they should go (with no direction or thought taken as to how it will effect a grander strategy)

Everyone else on both teams meanders over to the contested cap point (usually THETA) and trickle into the fight (since both sides are in equal disarray there is no advantage taken by either side from the lack of organization)

The couple of light mechs that were off capping run around capping and recapping and basicaly trading points around with no clear advantage gained. Or they end up in a furball with the enemy light mechs that were doing the same as they were until they accidently bumped onto each other.

Meanwhile back at "THETA" one team manages to kill the other and now they bumble about trying to take caps and hunt the last few light mechs that overall didn't contribute to the outcome in any meaningfull way.

Then there are the few conquests where the fight at "theta" took so long that the surviving light mechs run the "resource clock" out to win.

But mainly the victory is establish by killing the other team before the resources hit 750 for the other team.

The timer is the resource count I have never seen a conquest run out on match time EVER.