38 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Anyways, practically nobody would have left MWO for Reign of Thunder since the latter was just a boring game (I played it). It was like a clone of Mechassault, but without any of the fun. And just like MA it didn't have any customization, which is one of the main draws of the Mechwarrior series.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 19 February 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

No MW game ever had variable gravity or atmosphere. Well, I heard that MWLL might have had a map with different gravity, but that was only one map and it's not even an actual game (just a mod).

Not sure about atomsphere, but MW2 had "variable" gravity with that moon mission where your mech movement went to crack and MW2 Mercs had that shamefully bad+slow "underwater" map.

[Mystere]

meteorol, on 19 February 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

How is 1:1 parity a sign of pushing a game towards esports? PGI went with the 1:1 route long before Russ mentioned the word "esport" the first time. There are countless PVP multiplayer games that go for 1:1 balance without being an esport title.
I'm certainly glad they didn't go for balance by 10v12 or something like that, and i haven't played single comp match ever.

I don't see how the drive for 1:1 parity is caused by esports. IMO asymetrical balance would be hell, and i'm glad PGI didn't go for it.

1:1 makes eSports easy, which is something that has always been in Russ' mind. Also, do you know of any successful eSports game that is not 1:1.

Also, something like 10 vs. 12 can be compensated for by other means, assuming of course the people doing so know how to solve multidimensional problems.

But I've bee though this before. As such, if people want to know what those "dimensions" are, go look for them under my name. I'm too lazy right now to look them up for people.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

You are going to try to say that the format of team size is what differentiates this from legacy MechWarrior games. Please..

Yeah 1:1 parity, balance in a PvP game is so awful, we should do away with that.

Yes, 1:1 parity in an IP that is inherently asymmetric in its very nature is awful. PGI should have chosen a different era other than the Clan invasion.

Why even bother with an established IP if you're going to junk everything about it, with the exception of names and general looks?

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Its not he is just one of those people that think everything will magically work itself out if we have 10v12 with OP Clan mechs.

Yeah, yeah, that's what you all say -- unless of course solving N-dimensional problems is indeed magic, at least to those who do not comprehend such things.

Edited by Mystere, 19 February 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[Mystere]

Probably Not, on 19 February 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

Even if Reign of Thunder had gotten anywhere, would it have actually changed Russ and co.'s mind about wanting the Esports crowd? I don't think the problem was necessarily that there wasn't something to attract the Esports kiddies away from MWO, I think the problem was that PGI wanted that audience in the first place.

I really wonder what would have happened if PGI had advertized a 100% eSports game based on BT/MW instead of what they originally told the Founders.

[Appogee]

"From the team that brought you MechAssault...."

/shudder

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 February 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

I don't really see what specific things have been done to differentiate MWO from "Legacy MechWarrior games" in the name of eSport endeavors. Any examples?

Many of the maps have a "Thunderdome" arena feel: HPG and Mining Collective, especially, but almost all of them have an obvious "killing floor" amphitheater or raised platform at theta.

Play modes like "Domination" make very little sense outside a sport paradigm. Tell me losing because you've been "pushed out of the ring" isn't a little sumo/high-school wrestling/Karate Kid?

[meteorol]

Mystere, on 19 February 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

1:1 makes eSports easy, which is something that has always been in Russ' mind.

Do you have any reliable source for that... aside of your imagination?

Mystere, on 19 February 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Also, do you know of any successful eSports game that is not 1:1.

In recent esports? No... because... well... badly balanced PVP games usually aren't very succesful in esports?

You are really streching things here to fit your narrative here. A huge amount of PVP multiplayer games (i'd even say the vast majority) goes for 1:1 balance, still only a tiny amount of them can be considered successful esport titels.

Implying that 1:1 is even a indicator for PGI catering to the esports crowd is beyond ridiculous tbh. It's a similarity shared by a massive amount pvp games that are nowhere even close to the realms of esports.

[C E Dwyer]

So that was five years ago.

I thought Mitch Gittleman was involved with Mech Assault, clearly got the message and wasn't involved in this one

[MechaBattler]

FupDup, on 19 February 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

The only past MW game with recoil for the person shooting the weapon was MW3 I'm fairly certain. I know that MW4 definitely didn't have it.

MWO definitely has cockpit shake when you get shot, I dunno what you're talking about there.

No MW game ever had variable gravity or atmosphere. Well, I heard that MWLL might have had a map with different gravity, but that was only one map and it's not even an actual game (just a mod).

MWO's aiming is actually slightly more complex than previous games because we have dual crosshairs to deal with. All previous MW games combined arm and torso weapons into a single crosshair.

I thought HPG manifold was actually supposed to have less gravity. Did they change that?

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 19 February 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Yeah, yeah, that's what you all say -- unless of course solving N-dimensional problems is indeed magic, at least to those who do not comprehend such things.

4 Quarters of Calculus plus Linear analysis plus engineering applied math... I'm not fazed

Mystere, on 19 February 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

Yes, 1:1 parity in an IP that is inherently asymmetric in its very nature is awful. PGI should have chosen a different era other than the Clan invasion.

You realize that the multiplayer in past MW games were all even teams right?

[DaZur]

meteorol, on 19 February 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

Do you have any reliable source for that... aside of your imagination?




In recent esports? No... because... well... badly balanced PVP games usually aren't very succesful in esports?

You are really streching things here to fit your narrative here. A huge amount of PVP multiplayer games (i'd even say the vast majority) goes for 1:1 balance, still only a tiny amount of them can be considered successful esport titels.

Implying that 1:1 is even a indicator for PGI catering to the esports crowd is beyond ridiculous tbh. It's a similarity shared by a massive amount pvp games that are nowhere even close to the realms of esports.

Any competitive sport requires both parity and equity across both the competitor and the area.

The concerted effort by PGI to shoehorn MOW into that narrow definition through nerve and quirks is highly demonstrative of their desire for MWO to be an eXport.

[FalconerGray]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

I remember recoil in MW4 but not in any of the others. "Simplified" aiming? Aiming in this game is more complex than any previous title based on the single fact that you have a separate arm and torso aim point, yes you can lock them, but in previous games they were always locked together. In MW4 I think you could aim the arms separately as well.. but still... not seeing a "simplification" at all.

Agility is higher yes.

Future war simulator can be MW5 IMO. There's no way you get out of the arena feeling in a PvP only game with a limited map size. There is no single player campaign here like the old games, and there was never any intent to add that to this game.

MW3 recoil was a huge part of gameplay. Firing off a large projectile weapon would push your aim off centre, the same for being hit by such a weapon. And the crosshairs didn't return to centre - you had to fight to stay on target.

As for aiming being simplified, we've got a second crosshair yes, but with a single input you control everything at the same time. I perhaps should have mentioned this as simplified piloting, as it's more about the way that int he older games, driving the mech and aiming your weapons were two separate processes. However simplified aiming could still be relevant as in MWO, all of the weapons magically hit the exact same pixel, with no mechanics steer the gameplay away from that.

FupDup, on 19 February 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

The only past MW game with recoil for the person shooting the weapon was MW3 I'm fairly certain. I know that MW4 definitely didn't have it.

MWO definitely has cockpit shake when you get shot, I dunno what you're talking about there.

No MW game ever had variable gravity or atmosphere. Well, I heard that MWLL might have had a map with different gravity, but that was only one map and it's not even an actual game (just a mod).

MWO's aiming is actually slightly more complex than previous games because we have dual crosshairs to deal with. All previous MW games combined arm and torso weapons into a single crosshair.

Cockpit shake is just a graphical effect - it doesn't influence aiming or weapon trajectory.

The MW2 series had a wonderful variable gravity / atmosphere system. Mech control and behaviour became totally different on low gravity planets, asteroids, inside spaceships, etc. Mechs became faster and harder to control. A mis-timed jump jet burn would throw you so far off course or in some cases, out into space. And that previously mentioned underwater map, whilst not exactly being a shining beacon of brilliance, did indeed contain atmosphere effects (from memory, the mech 'floated' like on the low gravity maps, but was slower and more sluggish due to the 'water'.

See above re: aiming. It was more about piloting, but on that, the MWO aiming system itself has been simplified and dumbed down from closed beta to now....


---


My point in all of this, is that I'm looking at the current product compared to the old product and I'm trying to see the progress made over 20+ years of the series. What does MWO have over the older games?

It has better graphics. Smoother performance maybe? More stability? Better online capabilities. A more coherent control scheme (though this could also be viewed as a negative as it has come at the expense of simulation qualities).

Those are all changes that you would absolutely expect to come as a result of computer advancements over time. That isn't an improved game, or the series breaking new ground. It's just a more modern game.

You might argue for greater diversity in terms of weapon performance, or a more thorough and sensible mechlab / build system. Those are definitely improvements.

But there are so many other areas that MWO has fallen behind in, features that are totally missing from this game that were a major part of what made the previous games what they are.

We're comparing a new car to a 20 year old car. Yeah the new car might be safer, more reliable, have better fuel milage and maybe even a few cool new features like bluetooth and a touch screen stereo. But the 20 year old car was a real drivers car, with a better engine a gearbox, a design philosophy that wasn't compromised by the desire to appeal to as broad a crowd as possible and it also had those ridiculous but immense cool features of the past like an in-dash telephone.

Yeah the new car is technically "better", but as you drive it you're still thinking "I wish this one drove the same as my last".

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 February 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

If I'm not snarky the Buffy gif loses its power.

I don't really see what specific things have been done to differentiate MWO from "Legacy MechWarrior games" in the name of eSport endeavors. Any examples?

Actually this is easy.

They should have let the community MAKE it an e-sport, instead of trying to PUSH it as an esport...

PGI basically killed the game's e-sports potential because they pushed it so damned hard. We HAD good, interesting tournaments... back in Closed Beta... the old Run Hot or Die community run tourney was a BLAST... actual units that had actual skill. and the first two ended in upset's that no one expected! [literally no one expected Eridani Light Pony to take the tournament once, let alone twice!]

And that was BEFORE eve had spectator tools. No, no the game differentated itself because it was a lovely looking mech game that had potential back then.. but was slowly turned into the clan vs is balancing NIGHTMARE we have today.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

4 Quarters of Calculus plus Linear analysis plus engineering applied math... I'm not fazed

Only?

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

You realize that the multiplayer in past MW games were all even teams right?

And they were also all arenas. That does not mean though all future MW games should also only be the same. <shrugs>

I guess it's no wonder why people constantly complain that many highly successful games are just rehashes of old ones.

[AnTi90d]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

Not sure about atomsphere, but MW2 had "variable" gravity with that moon mission where your mech movement went to crack and MW2 Mercs had that shamefully bad+slow "underwater" map.

Also several Mechwarrior 4 servers ran online multiplayer maps that had low gravity. I specifically remember an asteroid or moon type level that it was really fun to JJ around in. We played Invasion style matches on them.

[Pariah Devalis]

xe N on, on 18 February 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

There is a new mech game basing on Heavy Gear developed by MekTek coming out:

http://store.steampo...com/app/416020/

Absolutely no offense intended to xe N, but every time I see someone name drop Heavy Gear Assault, I am torn between laughing myself into respiratory arrest, or cringing so hard my facial muscles herniate. The state HGA is in right now is far worse than MWO ever was, even in closed beta. Control layouts, the U.I., the feel of the gears.... Somehow each is worse than the last.

If anyone is pinning hopes on a new MWO replacement game being Heavy Gear Assault, I have oh such bad news for you......

[Dino Might]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 February 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

Absolutely no offense intended to xe N, but every time I see someone name drop Heavy Gear Assault, I am torn between laughing myself into respiratory arrest, or cringing so hard my facial muscles herniate. The state HGA is in right now is far worse than MWO ever was, even in closed beta. Control layouts, the U.I., the feel of the gears.... Somehow each is worse than the last.

If anyone is pinning hopes on a new MWO replacement game being Heavy Gear Assault, I have oh such bad news for you......

I'm a bit disappointed at the pace of development. One more arrow in the "never preorder anything" quiver. I think, way back when I did that, along with MW:T, I was a new a naive game buyer. Now I know better.

The only thing I preorder anymore are DCS modules, because I know the quality they put out, and preorder is only 1-2 months prior to release. Anything else can kiss my grits with their promises of awesome content. I'll buy it after it's been thoroughly beta tested.

[Coolant]

I happen to like MWO the way it is...just add a few more MW4 elements and it would be just right