25 replies to this topic

[Improperly Touched Center Torso]

I would like to know which is betterand when, and if it is worth toggling

Pls outline in detail for both

thx

[Fox With A Shotgun]

There is no such thing as better at all times for this.

It is important to know the benefits and drawbacks for both cases. Arm Lock on means that your arm weapons will always try to aim at whatever the torso is aiming at. If you have no arm weapons, then there is no benefit to having Arm Lock off unless you want to try and block shots by raising or lowering your arms. If you do have arm weapons, then it's important to know some things about arm actuators.

Arm actuators respond quickly. You can move them up and down pretty quickly, and if you have Lower Arm Actuators or Hand Actuators on your mech, you can move them from side to side equally as quickly. This lets you aim with much more precision against moving targets, because you do NOT have to wait for your whole mech to turn from waist up in order to aim. If you have things like PPCs or ACs on your arms, this will let you deal with light mechs and fast mediums very very nicely.

Arm weapons have a wider range of movement than torso weapons. Most mechs have only 20 degrees down pitch and 30 degrees up pitch at maximum, while with arm weapons you can reach -60 degrees and +60 degrees. A big difference when you're trying to shoot up a hill or at a UAV. Unlock your arms if you want to shoot things really high up or really far below your mech.

If you're trying to put all damage on a single point, and you're not too concerned about the target moving quickly and thus you whiffing most of your damage, then Arm Lock on would be a benefit here. This makes all your torso and arm weapons converge on the same point. If you're up against big, slow targets, or a mech that's shut down, then arm lock should be on when possible to get maximum damage. It goes without saying that if you have no torso weapons, it makes no sense to have Arm Lock on.

[Koniving]

Improperly Touched Center Torso, on 19 February 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

I would like to know which is betterand when, and if it is worth toggling

Pls outline in detail for both

thx

Welcome to MWO.

I've been playing since 2012, currently own 217 mechs, and when I started there was no arm lock.

I prefer my arms unlocked by default, but I use shift as a "Hold to lock arms" button when I need to get precision shots with my torso weapons or with combined arm and torso weapons. Sometimes while trying to hit a light with a heavy weapon.

Otherwise I leave my arms unlocked.

From another thread about aiming, I quote this tidbit... Under the links are videos using the Arm crosshair ( o ) as well as the torso crosshair ( + ). Watch the use of the ( o ) crosshair. Note that when it jumps to the ( + ) crosshair and doesn't move, that's when I hit the armlock button (you'll see it several times in the second and third video, as well as lots of use of unlocked arms in the first).

Koniving, on 18 February 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Techniques. You actually have two separate reticles, and can take control of them independently. This is rather advanced and honestly even many top tier players don't actually use this.

You will see examples of this here, here and here. This is simply 'using' the two crosshairs as they are without the arms being locked, which is the most basic form of this technique.
Note1: The mention of "premade" is from a time when up to 4 player groups could play in the standard queue. This changed some time ago.
Note2: The final kill in the third video is taking advantage of a pair of more advanced techniques called "predicting where your convergence is going to be" so you can shoot over there and hit the enemy over here... and the technique called "luck." Here it is with less luck and non-instant convergence. Edit: FORGOT LINK!

There are more advanced techniques. As stated you can take control of them independently. You can fire in two directions at once -- including the ability to fire LRMs in TWO DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS at TWO DIFFERENT TARGETS AT THE SAME TIME! Lets see Metamechs teach you how to do THAT! Ha! But it is more fun to discover awesome stuff like that than to simply 'know'.

Enjoy.

[justcallme A S H]

I always run with lock on.

I hotkey to toggle it off when dealing with lights etc. A lot of people I watch with it off, spray dmg all over the joint. More effective ti have it land in the same component, where possible.

[Rogue Jedi]

I always run with arm lock off, I find the speed and movement range boost of the arm weapons over torso weapons to be too important, I have tried with arm lock but found it hurts way more than helps.

I am not saying arm lock is pointless, just that it does not work well for me, many people ether keep arms locked and unlock them when needed or keep them unlocked except when they want them locked.

with regards to actuators,
all arms have upper arm actuators, they allow the arm to aim up/down, at least doubling ^{(usualy more)} the ammount you can aim up/down with arm weapons

lower arm actuators give side to side movement, not all Mechs have lower arm actuators (and if an Omnimech can fit them they are removable), have a lower arm actuator on one arm and it gives both arms a limited amount of side to side movement, have both and it gives you full lower arm movement, which is usualy 30-40 degrees extra side to side movement for arm weapons on top of torso movement range

Hand actuators, currently do nothing except add a visual hand/claw to the Mech, again not all Mechs have them and if an omnimech does they are removable.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 20 February 2017 - 03:34 AM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Rogue Jedi, on 20 February 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

Hand actuators, currently do nothing except add a visual hand/claw to the Mech, again not all Mechs have them and if an omnimech does they are removable.

Not true. Current iteration of hand actuators adds ~25% to the horizontal range of the arm crosshairs, per hand actuator.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 20 February 2017 - 03:50 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 20 February 2017 - 03:44 AM, said:

Not true. Current iteration of hand actuators adds ~25% to the horizontal range of the arm crosshairs, per hand actuator.

I am sorry but you are mistaken, I just loaded MWO, and went into testing grounds with a SCR-Prime(I), to see if it had changed, I tested both with and without hand actuators, the side to side arm movement range was identical with ot without

no hand actuator
with hand actuator

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Rogue Jedi, on 20 February 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

I am sorry but you are mistaken, I just loaded MWO, and went into testing grounds with a SCR-Prime(I), to see if it had changed, I tested both with and without hand actuators, the side to side arm movement range was identical with ot without

no hand actuator
with hand actuator

I stand corrected, then. I remember it used to make a huge difference when you could only have one arm with actuators because the other one either had an AC or PPC.

[aGentleWarrior]

99% with arms locked. That way most of my weapons hit the spot i want to hit.
Often my builds have weapons in a group which are in torso and arm, I don't like when some weapons fire in different directions simultanously...
However on some builds this is not the case, and then I sometimes toggle to unlock, but basically I use it only if I am not able to reach target vertically.

[Mr D One]

Rogue Jedi, on 20 February 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

I am sorry but you are mistaken, I just loaded MWO, and went into testing grounds with a SCR-Prime(I), to see if it had changed, I tested both with and without hand actuators, the side to side arm movement range was identical with ot without

no hand actuator
with hand actuator

Fox With A Shotgun, on 20 February 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

I stand corrected, then. I remember it used to make a huge difference when you could only have one arm with actuators because the other one either had an AC or PPC.

More of this respect in MWO please. Well done.

[ImperialKnight]

couldn't have put it better myself. what you start off as default is largely personal preference. but both modes have its uses and it would do any pilot good to master both.

personally i start locked as default and unlock when needed.

Fox With A Shotgun, on 19 February 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

There is no such thing as better at all times for this.

It is important to know the benefits and drawbacks for both cases. Arm Lock on means that your arm weapons will always try to aim at whatever the torso is aiming at. If you have no arm weapons, then there is no benefit to having Arm Lock off unless you want to try and block shots by raising or lowering your arms. If you do have arm weapons, then it's important to know some things about arm actuators.

Arm actuators respond quickly. You can move them up and down pretty quickly, and if you have Lower Arm Actuators or Hand Actuators on your mech, you can move them from side to side equally as quickly. This lets you aim with much more precision against moving targets, because you do NOT have to wait for your whole mech to turn from waist up in order to aim. If you have things like PPCs or ACs on your arms, this will let you deal with light mechs and fast mediums very very nicely.

Arm weapons have a wider range of movement than torso weapons. Most mechs have only 20 degrees down pitch and 30 degrees up pitch at maximum, while with arm weapons you can reach -60 degrees and +60 degrees. A big difference when you're trying to shoot up a hill or at a UAV. Unlock your arms if you want to shoot things really high up or really far below your mech.

If you're trying to put all damage on a single point, and you're not too concerned about the target moving quickly and thus you whiffing most of your damage, then Arm Lock on would be a benefit here. This makes all your torso and arm weapons converge on the same point. If you're up against big, slow targets, or a mech that's shut down, then arm lock should be on when possible to get maximum damage. It goes without saying that if you have no torso weapons, it makes no sense to have Arm Lock on.

[TercieI]

Depends on build, chassis and situation. I have it on a toggle and flip it at need. Probably 85% unlocked.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 20 February 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

I stand corrected, then. I remember it used to make a huge difference when you could only have one arm with actuators because the other one either had an AC or PPC.

It's having lower arm actuators on both sides that makes the huge difference.

[knight-of-ni]

It depends on weapon type and location of the mech I am piloting, but generally I switch between the arm lock modes on the fly, depending on the situation. I've got the armlock toggle programmed into my Nostromo and can easily turn armlock on or off in the middle of a fight.

Some examples:
Long range not requiring a lot of elevation, then I'll often have armlock on.
Close range with elevated targets, then I'll turn off armlock
I'll also turn it off if I am turning sharply but still want to poke the target as I turn.
Conversely, if the other (light) mech is turning away quickly, then I'll also turn off the armlock so I can hold the target longer
I generally try to avoid grouping arm + torso weapons, but when I do that will affect my decision to leave arm lock on or off too

[Amatsukaze]

Im sorry but I really don't see the benefit of having armlock turned on? I could see it maybe if you have weapons groups that combined arms & torso mounted weapons but I try real hard to NOT do exactly that because of this issue. If its torso mounted its in a diff group just so I don't have to think about it.

Koniving, on 19 February 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

when I need to get precision shots with my torso weapons or with combined arm and torso weapons.

This makes sense but wouldn't it just be easier to be cognizant that you do have 2 recticles & aim with the fixed cross? I subscribe to the KISS principle & having one less button to have to think about is a big plus in the heat of battle.

Im just trying to think of a good enough reason to create a key binding & trying to implement it into my gameplay.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Everything has been said. And said well. I only unlock the arms when I need to.

I do wish the motherfunkers who shoot all the way from the drop zone to contact would learn to unlock their arms (and brains) and fire upwards or anywhere except in the back of teammates.

Sorry, small rant there...

[Koniving]

Amatsukaze, on 20 February 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

This makes sense but wouldn't it just be easier to be cognizant that you do have 2 recticles & aim with the fixed cross? I subscribe to the KISS principle & having one less button to have to think about is a big plus in the heat of battle.

Im just trying to think of a good enough reason to create a key binding & trying to implement it into my gameplay.

Your average torso twists anywhere from 45 degrees/second to 100 degrees/second. Armlock cuts this maximum speed a little further by about 1/6th.
Your arms can travel 180 degrees/second, and it is only by trying to "catch up" to the arms that your torso can move at its maximum speed.

So already, you get knocked in a defensive disadvantage from the get go by keeping it simple.
Then, you have the issue that you have a very limited vertical range. Case in point..
Armlock on.

Armlock off.


In the case of Armlock off, you can target anything, anywhere, and hit it. In the case of it on... you may find yourself helpless against more...cunning enemies.

For some mechs, the difference between using arms and not using arms is the difference between whether it is considered to be incredibly good, or the sorriest rust bucket that you ever picked up out of the bargain bin. (Dragon being the most obvious example; it literally cannot be good at anything with armlock on...).

In the third video, the difference between me getting that kill and someone else getting it was -- quite frankly -- I had armlock off. I had no other way to hit him but I got that killing blow because I fired downward and crossed my laser in his path. Just that easily someone else could have had it. And in the first with the Dragon... notice I net kill after kill and most of the kills are off center, while mechs tried to circle-of-death me... and why didn't it work out for them? Using those arms.

And when you're using the Inner Sphere, an XL engine and your side torso is about to go... what can you do to stop the enemy from killing you? Face him head on and give him that side torso? ...Or could you NOT face him, thrust your arm in his direction and say "You're mine!" and kill him! Tank his shots into your good heavily armored side and kill him until he's dead! Kill him to death and Tea Bag his corpse before it even hits the ground!

The difference between living and dying, sometimes, is how fast you can hit the enemy and how soon you can hit him again. When I started there was about 4 seconds between when he fired and when he will fire again, giving you all the time in the world to twist and protect yourself. A Muromets armed with an AC/20, two damn machine guns and some medium lasers could stand toe to toe with an AC/20, twin SRM-6 and 4 medium lasers and the fight would last over 2 damn minutes with an assault mech losing an arm because he would metaphorically punch my AC/20 rounds using his damn fists... Now, head to head in a fight you've got about 8 seconds tops before one of you two is going home in a scrap heap loaded in a dump truck.
K.I.S.S. is a luxury afforded to those with the biggest guns and the best situations.

[Cato Phoenix]

I personally run with arms unlocked 100%.

[Skrapha]

When I need to torso twist quickly, i toggle the arm lock off, It allows me to torso twist far faster and with little mouse movement. When I have no arm weapons I leave this off all the time, since it allows for faster turning. (well, not actually faster, just more torso movement for smaller mouse movement ratio).

Your left and right view is better as well, since your point of view moves, followed by your mechs torso, allowing for faster spatial awareness, as well as the aforementioned torso twisting.

But i try to leave it off as much as possible when I have weapons that need convergence, such as arm and torso lasers / SRMs etc...

In the end, It simply depends on your style of play and the weapon loadout

[TooDumbToQuit]

Cato Phoenix, on 20 February 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

I personally run with arms unlocked 100%.

Coming into the game this is the way I understood it. If you want to be a good player and a good shot, learn to use your arms unlocked.

Since then I have read. I'd rather have all my weapons centered so I get the best shot (Alpha?) off quickly.

I admit that I got lazy and partly I was playing some "zombie" builds but mainly lazy and I do not see well and do not shoot well so I'm thinking any edge I can get will help. So yes, having my arms locked did have all my weapons centered without any extra "effort". And I think my shooting improved.

But recently I've had a number of games where I needed my arms to move and for me, it is a whole other way to aim so without practice it is difficult. So I'm going to go back to it to try to improve. I need to get my game up another level, right now I just feel like I'm simply grinding, or what we used to call, farming.

Edited by LikeUntoGod, 20 February 2017 - 01:46 PM.