12 replies to this topic

[Master Pain]

Based on the following:
- current costs on the pts
- cbills that will be refunded from modules
- number of fully mastered mechs i currently have
- the amount in cbills i will be short to fully remaster these same mechs
- the amount of cbills i earn per match on average
- the number of matches i have played on average per year in the 3 years since the stats were reset

I estimate that it will take me 1 year to get back to where i am currently at with the number of mechs i have that are fully competitive.

I find this to be unacceptable. The system that we currently have has allowed me to have the cbills necessary to customize more mechs by sharing modules, because of this, I have purchased many more mech packs than i would have if i had filled each mech with their own modules.

Now i feel that i am being punished for spending money on this game.

All of this is just for the mechs i currently have fully mastered, it doesnt take into account any mechs that i have that are just elited. If i count these mechs, it will cost maybe 50% more.

[Admiral-Dan]

Nah, you are never get back to where you are now. Because now you can respec for free.

[DeeHawk]

I guess they will be dealing with the 'unacceptable' part, as this topic has risen quite a few times.

One suggestion is to reward players with some sort of bonus for already mastered mechs, or a 1year Cbill bonus.

However, they are implementing a new system that is supposed to change the way you buy and manage your mechs, and most of your points are related to learned mechanisms in the way you manage your mechs in the old system.
Skilling your mechs in the new system is not 1:1 with the old system. It's more like 3:1.
You only mastered 3 of each variant because you had, and you only bought packs of 3 because that was most cost effective.
After each buy, the deal is OVER and they don't owe you squat.

I do believe you will be compensated somehow, but whatever solution they come up with, I'm pretty sure you're not gonna be impressed,

[Big MO]

The solution is just so simple I can't understand why they don't see it. Forget the refunds, calculating historic experience, etc. If a mech is mastered in the old system, you get 91 (or whatever the max is) reusable skill points in the new system for that mech. If it is elited, you get some smaller number. This lets everyone figure out and get comfortable with the new system / process using their existing mechs. No one feels like they lost anything. The new system applies for mechs going forward.

[ForceUser]

Big MO, on 28 February 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

The solution is just so simple I can't understand why they don't see it. Forget the refunds, calculating historic experience, etc. If a mech is mastered in the old system, you get 91 (or whatever the max is) reusable skill points in the new system for that mech. If it is elited, you get some smaller number. This lets everyone figure out and get comfortable with the new system / process using their existing mechs. No one feels like they lost anything. The new system applies for mechs going forward.

Unfortunately it's not actually all that simple. Player A has 200 mechs but only owns a single module set. Player B has 100 mechs but owns 100 module sets. Why should player A suddenly get 200 mechs worth of radar derp equivalent skill points for free for zero work? What about player B that now suddenly finds himself with almost 2 bill in Cbills? What reason would he ever have of buying premium time, or hell even playing ever again if he can just buy all the mechs, having no progression left and go do something else?

The only true and fair solution is to give every player as close as humanly possible what they earned. To actually give people exactly what they earned with their time, not more, not less. After a match you earn XP and Cbills. You do not earn skill points, modules or masteries. You spend XP and cbills you earned on masteries and modules and they are refunding that as close as possible.

See that's the problem with every thread and argument like this. People equate mastering a mech in the old system to mastering a mech in the new system and it's just not true at all. It's comparing apples to Dropbears.

Basically your idea rewards people unequally for their time invested in the game. People who only mastered a mech and didn't play it further and spent as little money as possible in modules will gain an astronomically larger amount of progression over people who played less mechs more and spent the money on modules despite those same two people having spent the same amount of time and money on the game.

How is that fair?

Edited by ForceUser, 28 February 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[Skribs]

Plain and simple if people take a year to relevel Mechs, that is a year they are not biyimg Mech packs.

[Big MO]

I understand what you are saying. There is an inequity there that will need to be fixed. But from the perspective of the module poor, mech rich scenario, the refund system gives them something less than they have now. Because modules are portable, a single set (or 4 for faction play) is all that one needs to have fully skilled out mechs. Giving that person something less going forward makes them feel cheated.
You want your user base to feel as though they didn't lose anything as a first priority. If some group feels that others got more than they did, address that as a secondary problem. Do just the Cbill refund for modules if someone owns more than 4 of a type (or 1 if they only play QP).

[ForceUser]

Skribs, on 28 February 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Plain and simple if people take a year to relevel Mechs, that is a year they are not biyimg Mech packs.

That doesn't follow. Of my 172 mechs, 105 are mastered (some with 100ks worth of extra XP), 15 are elited and 25 are basic'd. I still basically have 67 mechs that are not mastered but I still buy mech packs. Why would the number of maxed out mechs in the new system change weather or not someone would buy mech packs, whatever form those packs may take?

Quote

There is an inequity there that will need to be fixed. But from the perspective of the module poor, mech rich scenario, the refund system gives them something less than they have now.

There is not any inequality, that's the point, there is only what people spent their XP, GXP and Cbills on, and they are getting, as far as humanly possible, a full refund on that expenditure. This is exactly the same for every single person with no exceptions and no special treatments. That's the definition of equal treatment.

It's quite common for people to see 'inequality' only as they think it pertains to themselves. It's about returning to each player what they are owed, nothing more and nothing less. The perception is often that what they think is owed them is far more than what actually is. This is kind of the core problem with a high sense of entitlement, especially as it pertains to large scale change. The new and old system are not analogous. The new system is more than the combination of the separate old systems.

The core issue is simply that old masteries /= new masteries and I think perhaps renaming it from masteries to something else would help make that point clear but comes with it's own set of issues. The only universally fair treatment for everyone is to return as much of their invested cbills, XP and GXP that they earned as possible. Masteries and modules weren't earned, they were bought with with what you earned. Sounds overly pedantic but in a case like this you have to be to avoid actual unfair treatment of any part of your player base. And I am squarely in the mech rich module poor segment of the player base.

[Dogstar]

>There is not any inequality, that's the point, there is only what people spent their XP, GXP and Cbills on, and they are getting, as far as humanly possible, a full refund on that expenditure. This is exactly the same for every single person with no exceptions and no special treatments. That's the definition of equal treatment.

Except in his case your 'equal treatment' means that one bunch of people are worse off than another bunch.

To be fair, as opposed to 'equal', each player should get an amount of c-bills based upon how many skills they have bought for their mech under the current system.

The current system has no c-bill cost to buy skills, the new system has a cost to buy skills, giving players money to 'buy back'* their skills is fair but not equal. Giving them money based on what they've bought before is equal but not fair.

*Yes I know it's not exactly 'buy back' and that old sills are not directly equivalent to new skills

[VanillaG]

Big MO, on 28 February 2017 - 06:21 AM, said:

The solution is just so simple I can't understand why they don't see it. Forget the refunds, calculating historic experience, etc. If a mech is mastered in the old system, you get 91 (or whatever the max is) reusable skill points in the new system for that mech. If it is elited, you get some smaller number. This lets everyone figure out and get comfortable with the new system / process using their existing mechs. No one feels like they lost anything. The new system applies for mechs going forward.

You should not get the entire tree unlocked but only the nodes that match the old system. I would be fine with a smaller number of nodes being unlocked for XP only, around 45, based on which nodes were unlocked in the old system. But there is no reason to unlock the entire tree for free.

Most mechs would have enough XP and GXP to unlock the nodes but not the CBills. Prioritize maxing out the mechs that you currently play and using the CBills that you generate to work your way through your collection. Unlike the old system your do not need to grind using the chassis if you already have the XP.

[Andi Nagasia]

ok ill just repost this here

Andi Nagasia, on 25 February 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

when some one did the Math, they found it would take 46Points to equal the old Skill Tree,
ok in the old system it took 57,250 experience to level from Basic to Master(assuming 3Rule + 10,000Exp)
at the time(Skill Tree PTS(1) each Skill Node had a cost of 100,000C-Bills & 1500experience,
-
46 x 100,000C-Bills & 1,500Exp = 4,600,000C-Bills & 69,000Exp.
so it costs a little more than a weapon Module but less than an average Mech Module,
but Exp cost are about 1,750 more, ok its more but not that much more(11,750 without 3Rule),
-
Now lets look at the Newest price reduction(PTS(2),
46 x 60,000C-Bills & 800Exp = 2,760,000C-Bills & 36,800Exp.
so it costs a little more than a weapon Module but less than half of an average Mech Module,
but Exp cost are about 20,450 Less than what we have now, without the 3Rule,
-
So yes this is like increasing the Cap and not pulling you back,
unless you never put modules on your mech, and if so thats not really PGIs fault,
this system guarantees even on a loss you are likely to unlock a node a match,

that said,
it'll take you 1 year to get all your Mechs Maxed,
but they will be Much stronger than they are now,

[Dogstar]

>it'll take you 1 year to get all your Mechs Maxed

Can't you see that that is a bad thing? That's 1 years lost profit for PGI!

[Master Pain]

Right now i have 85 maxed mechs. After the new skill tree, i will only have about 50 maxed mechs
I also have about 40 mechs that are just short the extra module slot. With the new skill tree, none of these will have any progress because i will have spent all of my cbills on the 50 mechs that i maxed out.

I will go from:
85 mechs at 100%
40 mechs at 66% (fully elite)
50 mechs <66%

To:
50 mechs at 100%
125 mechs at 0%

WTF!!! All this feels like to me is PGI saying " Thank you for the 600 dollars in mech packs and founders, now go f**k yourself!"

There has to be a way to inclued me and others like me that swap modules in this transition so that we aren't getting short changed.