12 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

TL;DR
1. Skill tree lack structure.
2. The only "logic" behind levelling - pick as many usefull nodes, while avoiding junk nodes.
3. There is no fun factor in levelling your mech as a consequence

Skill tree structure is a mess, plagued with useless nodes whereas important nodes are all over the place. It takes a lot of time to get into it, it's not intuitive, you'll always miss a node you'd like to purchase. Most important - it's not fun to play "find the node you want on the other end of a skill tree" instead of playing Mechwarrior.

To give you an idea of what's it all about, here's my first try to level a 5MPL Adder mech and how it feels:
"Wow, that's a huge firepower tree, let's see!"
"WTF? I have to take missile nodes to level lasors?"
"Where is this damn heatgen 8?"
"Sh*t, there's more usefull nodes in the balistic part, damn it"
...
15 minutes later, looking on the other skill trees:
"F* you, I'm not doing this again, Alt+F4"

My brother, who plays MWO only occasionally left after 5 minutes saying smth. like "life is too short for that". And despite the rant above, I still managed to get 90% of desired nodes on a second attempt, so there's no meaningfull choices either.

You guys from PGI monitor players's feedback and here it is. That's player experience from a new skill tree. Even Battletech junkies, like myself will have a hard time navigating the skill tree. Casual players like my brother won't even bother looking at it.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 02 March 2017 - 03:32 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

There shouldn't be any nodes that are super important or completely useless.

[AngrySpartan]

Kaeb Odellas, on 02 March 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

There shouldn't be any nodes that are super important or completely useless.

I'll say that differently: every node should have it's place. There are 25-40% of nodes that exists only because (just an assumption here) PGI want to limit the access to important ones and steel keep 91 nodes structure (that's a C-bill sink after all).

That's not main point of my initial post though. My main concern - skill tree is overly complicated.

I can put a parallel with a car I once owned and hated it - a BMW with all those fancy electronics on board. You were allowed to select brake strenth, stabilization system settings, display color, acceleration pedal sensitivity etc. That's what PTS skill tree looks like now. All I ever wanted in that car is to select drive mode (sport, comfort, etc.) and enjoy the ride.

The same with a skill tree - all I want is to make a choice if my mech will be durable, fast&mobile or carry firepower (you can add E-warfare and other support stuff PGI so desperately trying to bandaid). I don't want to spend an hour figuring out which one of 200+ nodes will give me that 1% difference.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 02 March 2017 - 02:46 AM.

[Kuaron]

I'm tempted to vote yes/yes because without an alternative suggestion, increasing the effective cost of valuable nodes by hiding them behind junk is a necessary balancing measure.

I made a (quite obvious, IMO) suggestion for a linear tree in another thread,
https://mwomercs.com...-trees-banaced/
but maybe there is more and maybe there is missing something.

Edit:
Ah, but if it's about becoming that simple,

AngrySpartan, on 02 March 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

The same with a skill tree - all I want is to make a choice if my mech will be durable, fast&mobile or carry firepower (you can add E-warfare and other support stuff PGI so desperately trying to bandaid). I don't want to spend an hour figuring out which one of 200+ nodes will give me that 1% difference.

that you only can choose a profile an nothing further, I'd favour the PTS detail depth, I guess.

Also, I guess after half an hour you know what is where and it stays the same for every Mech, it stops being complicated quite fast.

Edited by Kuaron, 02 March 2017 - 03:03 AM.

[AngrySpartan]

@Kuaron, I'm not exactly disagree, but let's see:
TL;DR:
1. Skill tree lacks structure
2. Skill tree lacks logic and choices as a consequence

Kuaron, on 02 March 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

Ah, but if it's about becoming that simple,
that you only can choose a profile an nothing further, I'd favour the PTS detail depth, I guess.
Also, I guess after half an hour you know what is where and it stays the same for every Mech, it stops being complicated quite fast.

It's not that simple, and Profiles is definetely not what I mean. It's more about the feeling that current skill tree has. Just ask a person who's playing other games that MWO to level a Firepower tree for a specific weapon, you'll get what I mean.
Skill tree now:
1. Has no structure at all no matter what PGI is trying to convience us. There is no structure in hiding important nodes, there is no organized way to purchase all skills that you want. Instead you have to navigate hexagonal abomination we have now.
2. Taking a single tree as an example, pick any. The only logic behind node selection is to get as many "valuable" nodes, while picking fewer "junk" nodes. There is no logic.

Kuaron, on 02 March 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

I'm tempted to vote yes/yes because without an alternative suggestion, increasing the effective cost of valuable nodes by hiding them behind junk is a necessary balancing measure.

Junk nodes by itself is not a bad thing as long as:
1. They still have value in a specific cases
2. They do not mess up with a structure
3. They does not make your eyes and brain bleed while trying to avoid them

Just look at the Witcher 3 skill tree. That's the way how to organize that many skills in a structure. 3 "trees" with approx. 50 "nodes" each, with clear distinction between certain "branches". Not all of skills were that good, but occasionally that "Arrow deflection" you've picked to gain access to higher tier skills was usefull.
How usefull "High explosive" nodes for the E-boats?

Edited by AngrySpartan, 02 March 2017 - 03:23 AM.

[Kuaron]

I don't disagree on the lack of structure.

In Witcher 3 you have skill in tiers, don't you? The approach is quite different in the first place.

[AngrySpartan]

Kuaron, on 02 March 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

I don't disagree on the lack of structure.
In Witcher 3 you have skill in tiers, don't you? The approach is quite different in the first place.

Tiers is a strong word to my taste. But yes, you have to spend X skill points in a single tree to open better skills - the same result PTS skill tree trying to achieve by throwing junk nodes all over.

BTW It's not that different as it seems. Witcher had the same 1-5 skill levels as we have on PTS. The difference is that they were stacked, not placed all over the screen (think of it like unlocking weapon module on a live server).

[Widowmaker1981]

Kaeb Odellas, on 02 March 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

There shouldn't be any nodes that are super important or completely useless.

That would involve PGI completely removing things like arm speed/range nodes. 98% of players will always think those are junk (because they are).. but you'll have that one person that thinks he wants it and complains he cant have it if its not there.

[AngrySpartan]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 March 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

That would involve PGI completely removing things like arm speed/range nodes. 98% of players will always think those are junk (because they are).. but you'll have that one person that thinks he wants it and complains he cant have it if its not there.

Junk nodes are welcomed as long as they aren't messing up with the tree AND situationally usefull. Having every 2nd-3rd node just to fill the gaps to me is a sign that something is wrong here.

[MookieDog]

Actually for those of us who play a Rifleman velocity speed is huge. If you just play laser vomit velocity speed doesnt mean any thing to you. However on hot maps, for those of us who just do not alpha 1-3 times and shut down, AC velocity is huge. It means that you have to actually aim and adjust for target speed. Its the exact opposite of LRMing mechs to death.

The same goes for range. If you play nothing but clan mechs whos weapons ranges are phenomenal then range skills most likely are not for you. If you play IS mechs then range is a staple of what you have to account for. When your ERLLs can not reach a mech shooting CERM or CLPL's you just might have some issues.

The skill tree does have structure and methodology.. as weapons become better they acquire different quirks.

Bottom line, PGI isnt going to let you mount an 4 CUAC5 and take nothing but cooldowns, jam reduction, and heat reduction. Many people have been crying for balance, and PGI is finally going a step in the right direction and yet there is more push back of: I WANT I WANT I WANT. Try giving PGI good feed back instead of.. remove all of the lines from the skill tree.

Edited by MookieDog, 02 March 2017 - 05:20 AM.

[Chound]

Kuaron, on 02 March 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

I don't disagree on the lack of structure.

In Witcher 3 you have skill in tiers, don't you? The approach is quite different in the first place.

I'd rather have a UI that looks siimilar to the old pilots skills you selected the ones you wanted and unlocked them if there are multi levels that can be indicated as well. Right now some sections of the tree is like buying a car. If ou want one feature you also have to get two or three other things also since it's part of the "package" To get advanced zoom, I had to get two sensor ranges as well. radar derp two sensor range and two target info gathering. Speed tweak is at the bottom of the tree you need to get a dozen nodes to pick that up. Part of the problem I had is moving the tree around so I can get to the nodes. It didn't drage right.

[Chound]

MookieDog, on 02 March 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

Actually for those of us who play a Rifleman velocity speed is huge. If you just play laser vomit velocity speed doesnt mean any thing to you. However on hot maps, for those of us who just do not alpha 1-3 times and shut down, AC velocity is huge. It means that you have to actually aim and adjust for target speed. Its the exact opposite of LRMing mechs to death.

The same goes for range. If you play nothing but clan mechs whos weapons ranges are phenomenal then range skills most likely are not for you. If you play IS mechs then range is a staple of what you have to account for. When your ERLLs can not reach a mech shooting CERM or CLPL's you just might have some issues.

The skill tree does have structure and methodology.. as weapons become better they acquire different quirks.

Bottom line, PGI isnt going to let you mount an 4 CUAC5 and take nothing but cooldowns, jam reduction, and heat reduction. Many people have been crying for balance, and PGI is finally going a step in the right direction and yet there is more push back of: I WANT I WANT I WANT. Try giving PGI good feed back instead of.. remove all of the lines from the skill tree.

sorry but that is actually a valid comment. the lines are the ones that connect the different nodes together and determine which skills you must take to get a certain skill. It's crude way of suggesting the nodes should be independant so we can pick ONLY the ones we want and not take others. That is what they said we would get. Instead we get someting where we waste nodes on things we don't want.

[AngrySpartan]

MookieDog, on 02 March 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

...
Bottom line, PGI isnt going to let you mount an 4 CUAC5 and take nothing but cooldowns, jam reduction, and heat reduction. Many people have been crying for balance, and PGI is finally going a step in the right direction and yet there is more push back of: I WANT I WANT I WANT. Try giving PGI good feed back instead of.. remove all of the lines from the skill tree.

I am not even touching the balance, nerfs/quirks and all the other stuff PGI trying to put into skill tree and PTS, that's another kind of rant.

I started this topic to bring attention on the structure of a skill tree or rather lack of it. Ask a person, who's not familliar with PTS to level the mech, you'll likely get the most honest opinion on that...

Chound, on 02 March 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

I'd rather have a UI that looks siimilar to the old pilots skills you selected the ones you wanted and unlocked them if there are multi levels that can be indicated as well. Right now some sections of the tree is like buying a car. If ou want one feature you also have to get two or three other things also since it's part of the "package" To get advanced zoom, I had to get two sensor ranges as well. radar derp two sensor range and two target info gathering. Speed tweak is at the bottom of the tree you need to get a dozen nodes to pick that up. Part of the problem I had is moving the tree around so I can get to the nodes. It didn't drage right.

Great parallel Choud, and it's nice that you mentioned current skill tree. Indeed it's strong side - it's simple, it's structured and it does not make you scratch your head every time you look at it. It's new player friendly, and that's important for the game with MWO's learning curve.