6 replies to this topic

[Stormravin]

I see all the useless rage some people have and thought you all would appreciate a constructive post with no anger and more possible solutions so here ya go!


Useful vs. Non-useful items.
Playing around with the skill trees I can say that I understand that people are frustrated with having to choose things that they don't want to get to things that they do. I also understand that the devs wanted to make someone have to make hard choices and I get that. I would suggest making the choices linear and see how that plays out. Meaning Range has 10 nodes beneath it, Velocity has 5 nodes beneath it, etc...

This means that you do not have to spend money and xp on nodes you don’t want/use. This also means that it is completely clear what you are choosing and what the total buff is going to be. Meaning that is I get all 8 -1% heat gen nodes then I will get a -8% heat gen reduction.

I wouldn’t be opposed to different costs (making it more painful for missile rack and mag capacity) and/or even a progressive cost (each node costs more than the subsequent node.) This would make it a bit more costly for someone to boat and make it less of a hit for someone to spread out the nodes with more weapons.
I am one of those people who usually has 3 different weapons on my mechs and I already have to choose between the module buffs for each and have no issue with having to choose to spread out my points to get the buffs I want.


Armor, structure, and mobility.
Speed and Armor is life in this game, therefore, I think it is safe to assume that almost everyone wants Speed tweak and will spend down to get it and the same with survivability. The first thing I did was try to find the most painless way to speed tweak and get all the armor and structure nodes.

Now, I know this is going to be a controversial suggestion but it is just a suggestion that I have been throwing around in my head:
Get rid of the survivability tree and the mobility tree.
That means no speed tweak (your mech is as fast it is meant to be) and no armor and structure buffs. You can already choose to put armor on your mechs and quirks are not totally gone.

*ducks head*

Or not and just make them linear (as mentioned above) as well.

Node Cost
I have no problem with the current xp and cb cost structure. Meaning I like the buy once, don’t penalize for removing and then just a 400xp addition to add it back (kind of like brushing up on that skill). I have not issue with this. Thank you for listening to the community on this.

I might be way off base on all this, but I thought it worth putting out there. Good luck!

Edited by Stormravin, 02 March 2017 - 12:33 PM.

[Avarice1of2]

Still have the same problem as last PTS with my Resistance Mauler. The problem is that there are not enough nodes to get it back to or even close to it's live status. If I want m sensor range, my cool shot effectiveness boost, my cool shot 9x9, my ac 2 range and lrm cool down, along with the speed I do not have enough nodes. I do not even dream of putting survivability on that mech. I just want to be able to get a similar performance to the live mech with modules.

Another thing that is wrong with the skill tree is the ammo nodes. A ton of ammo is a ton of ammo, it does not matter what type of ammo it is, it still goes into your mech's "AMMO BINS". There should be one unified node for extra ammo. One ton of ammo does not just magically lose weight, while every other ton stays the same. Due to the split nodes it is like a magical sticker you put on your ammo to make it have less mass. Here is an example one tonne of ac 5 = 30 rounds 1 tonne of lrm ammo = 180 rounds (on earth). We travel to mars now, the ac 5 ammo has a sticker on it that denotes it is affected by gravitons while the lrm ammo does not. So on mars were gravity is 0.25 of Earth's you now have 120 rounds of ac 5 ammo but still only 180 rounds of lrm ammo per tonne. Nothing else is different except for that sticker. Last time I checked gravity affects everything equally.


This previous skill system was far superior to this mess, once you where elited on a mech you had back it's full performance. Go to http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page. Once there look up your favorite battlemech or omnimech, you will see listed it's top speed (that is with it's stock engine). MWO before the speed tweak reduction got you close to that top speed, you were off by a small percent. Once you got the mech elited then it was running at factory stats, what made it unique was the weapon and mech mods people chose. My Resistance Mauler is a good example, yes I may want ac 2 range, lrm range and cool down, sensor range, target decay, advanced zoom, and seismic sensor, but I can not have them all. Of those 6 modules I can only pick a total of 4 and 1 of them is a mandatory mech module, 2 of them are mandatory weapon modules. I chose to get the advanced zoom, ac 2 range, lrm cool down, and target decay. Someone else may have gone with 3 weapons and a mech module. The point is that even though it is a long range support work horse the modules put on it are dependent upon who pilots it.

If PGI is still insistent on mobility nodes, and fire rate nodes, and some of the operation nodes, then those nodes should only be to boost the baseline performance of the mech, not nodes to give you back the factory/table top baseline performance.

Finally PGI should not force us to take nodes on every mech for skills that are currently pilot skills. The cool shot efficiency, the improved arty and air strikes (the none module boost), improved uav, and the cool shot 9x9. All that I just listed are passive pilot improvements to those modules and do not require you to put an additional device on your mech for the effects to be active. Those are actual skills as they come from the person in the mech and not what equipment is on the mech, and thus should not require us to take a node to replicate them.

[Bellum Dominum]

Pretty much the way I'm viewing the whole thing so far Stormravin.

I'd just say that if we were to toss out survive and agil for the reasons you listed then we should toss out the weapon tree as well. Doesn't matter if a person is a well trained and experienced sniper or a first time shooter. A .22LR round is only going to travel so far and hit so hard Certainly it will cause more damage when placed better (A shot in the eye vs the leg for instance) however that is individual skill (PEBKAC) and not mechanical operation of the weapon.

I like the skill concept and even appreciate what PGI has done so far. They need some tweaking around before implementation for sure and it appears the numbers as far as the code goes (how the tree actually affects each mech variant individually) needs adjustments. I agree linear over web .. but even linear can be presented as a web (sounds like an oxymoron but it's all about presentation and perception).

[Nutta88]

I'm reposting my comment here as it is probably a better place for it...

I don't mind the cost of the skill "tree" but don't like the maze like nature of it. Just fitting the current set of skills and modules into a skill maze feels broken and an unnecessary change.

If you want the skill matix to have relationships then the “skills” should effect each other. Link the effect of the skills within the current branches and between them.

e.g. have speed tweak increase max speed but also decrease acceleration and have an acceleration buff decrease max speed.

Though all of this needs for the current balance at least to be at least maintained as the lights on the test server feel like tanks. I am guessing that this is either a deliberate “test” or an oversight.

On live a base mist lynx has +60 accel +60 decl +45 turn

On test this becomes +25 +25 and +20… after you have all the skills.

No one would ever pick a light that is performing like a heavy. It is bad enough testing light performance in 4v4 but this makes them silly.

The skill maze feels overly complicated, not adding to the game. The skills should be linear choices but with drawbacks. The drawback could start low and move high as you progress down a path.

Increase in Sensor Range - Increases the time to gather target info
Target Gathering info - decreases sensor range.
Target Decay Duration - decreases sensor range.
Radar Deprivation - Reduces Seismic sensor range
Advanced Zoom - ? Maybe increased screen shake.
Seismic sensor range - Reduces Radar deprivation
360 Target retention range - decreases sensor range.
ECM target range reduction - decreases sensor range.

So getting advantage creates a disadvantage, a trade off...

Reduce laser Duration - Increases Cool down
Reduce cool down - Increases Duration
Increase weapon range - Increases Heat gen
Reduce weapon heat gen - Reduces range

uac jam chance reduction - Increases cool down
mag cap - increased ammo explosion chance or reduced damage per shot?

Normally there is a downside to improving something in a certain aspect, the more you improve a particular metric the more you decrease another. A lighter engine may be more fragile etc. It would be nice to make it so a non-levelled machine is not completely out of the game, just different.

This could be extended to give individual weapons or equipment a more unique flavour... but for any slight buff a have a nerf.

I don't mind change, I just would like that change to enhance a game that I am enjoying.

[Emperorcleon]

my big concern has been that it is annoying to put general weapons nodes behind laser, ballistic, or missle nodes if you play a mech without any of those systems. EX. laser boat having to buy missile nodes in order to take another node. The same problem is found in other skill trees that spread speed and agility based nodes around the tree and intermix them with other nodes. If you want something to cost more skill points then just make it cost more skill points. Why force people to have a node they don't want when they are limited to a certain number to nodes.

[Malrock]

Stormravin, on 02 March 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

I see all the useless rage some people have and thought you all would appreciate a constructive post with no anger and more possible solutions so here ya go!


Useful vs. Non-useful items.
Playing around with the skill trees I can say that I understand that people are frustrated with having to choose things that they don't want to get to things that they do. I also understand that the devs wanted to make someone have to make hard choices and I get that. I would suggest making the choices linear and see how that plays out. Meaning Range has 10 nodes beneath it, Velocity has 5 nodes beneath it, etc...

This means that you do not have to spend money and xp on nodes you don’t want/use. This also means that it is completely clear what you are choosing and what the total buff is going to be. Meaning that is I get all 8 -1% heat gen nodes then I will get a -8% heat gen reduction.

I wouldn’t be opposed to different costs (making it more painful for missile rack and mag capacity) and/or even a progressive cost (each node costs more than the subsequent node.) This would make it a bit more costly for someone to boat and make it less of a hit for someone to spread out the nodes with more weapons.
I am one of those people who usually has 3 different weapons on my mechs and I already have to choose between the module buffs for each and have no issue with having to choose to spread out my points to get the buffs I want.


Armor, structure, and mobility.
Speed and Armor is life in this game, therefore, I think it is safe to assume that almost everyone wants Speed tweak and will spend down to get it and the same with survivability. The first thing I did was try to find the most painless way to speed tweak and get all the armor and structure nodes.

Now, I know this is going to be a controversial suggestion but it is just a suggestion that I have been throwing around in my head:
Get rid of the survivability tree and the mobility tree.
That means no speed tweak (your mech is as fast it is meant to be) and no armor and structure buffs. You can already choose to put armor on your mechs and quirks are not totally gone.

*ducks head*

Or not and just make them linear (as mentioned above) as well.

Node Cost
I have no problem with the current xp and cb cost structure. Meaning I like the buy once, don’t penalize for removing and then just a 400xp addition to add it back (kind of like brushing up on that skill). I have not issue with this. Thank you for listening to the community on this.

I might be way off base on all this, but I thought it worth putting out there. Good luck!

Look i agree that we could all benefit from a flat TTK buff, but that could easily be accomplished with an across the board increase for every mech of their armor. For instance for the same weight each mech now carries 50% more armor than before. Boom TTK is much higher and we don't have to force people into the now bloated and poorly designed survival tree. It was better i think in the last PTS patch, they just bloated it in this patch to make it more expensive which feels icky, because the bloat is really bad stuff. The worst part is unless you commit to taking almost the entire tree, you have to take an AMS skill whether you have AMS or not.

If they want to allow all mechs to move 10% faster as a baseline and remove speed tweak entirely i would similarly be fine with it as well. This would be better for new players any way. They could probably keep the movement tree though just minus speed tweak, and it would be ok, as long as they decided to clump / cluster up similar skill types and make a direct line down the middle that has torso twist speed and turn speed nodes only.

Edited by Malrock, 03 March 2017 - 03:50 PM.