188 replies to this topic

[BustedHipGaming]

I am sure some other assault player has said this, but if you want to know why people play sniper assaults instead of brawlers, here's the list of reasons:

1. Everybody seems to vote for the same few wide-open maps where brawlers are just XP pinatas for the enemy team, and brawler players get sick of just being shot to bits while people gripe at them for "not doing more" as they die trying to close with the enemy.

2. Brawlers make pushes and discover that nobody cares, nobody helps, nobody supports, nobody even notices. People's situational awareness is basically zero. You can pull of an Atlas Ninja Run for the record books, get into close range, distract the whole enemy team, and do 1,000 damage but still get no kills and die horribly because the rest of the team sits around choking the, er, raven, instead of supporting you.

3. Assault players like variety just like anyone else. Sometimes they might want to outfit a mech for brawling, but sometimes you just wanna say, "yeah, this thing can mount 500 ER Large Lasers, let's put on a LIGHT SHOW BABY!" You can't just expect every assault player to play brawler every match.

And finally...

4. We get tired of listening to every backseat driver whining at us about how we should play. Make a push! Hold the line! Defend this point! And my personal favorite, after a game full of cursing at us: "SAVE ME!" Please. We are not stupid. We know we have armor and we want to win just like everyone else. Not every match requires and assault push. Not every match requires brawling. Long range heavy firepower, however, is almost always useful.

Having assaults do a coordinated push with lights scouting and med/heavies adding fire support requires coordination and teamwork - something we all know is less-than-commonplace in pickup matches. If you see assaults doing something other than brawl pushes, ask yourself if the rest of the team is actively doing its part, rather than complaining about why the assaults aren't suiciding.

[Humpday]

Drewbicus, on 12 March 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

I am sure some other assault player has said this, but if you want to know why people play sniper assaults instead of brawlers, here's the list of reasons:

1. Everybody seems to vote for the same few wide-open maps where brawlers are just XP pinatas for the enemy team, and brawler players get sick of just being shot to bits while people gripe at them for "not doing more" as they die trying to close with the enemy.

2. Brawlers make pushes and discover that nobody cares, nobody helps, nobody supports, nobody even notices. People's situational awareness is basically zero. You can pull of an Atlas Ninja Run for the record books, get into close range, distract the whole enemy team, and do 1,000 damage but still get no kills and die horribly because the rest of the team sits around choking the, er, raven, instead of supporting you.

3. Assault players like variety just like anyone else. Sometimes they might want to outfit a mech for brawling, but sometimes you just wanna say, "yeah, this thing can mount 500 ER Large Lasers, let's put on a LIGHT SHOW BABY!" You can't just expect every assault player to play brawler every match.

And finally...

4. We get tired of listening to every backseat driver whining at us about how we should play. Make a push! Hold the line! Defend this point! And my personal favorite, after a game full of cursing at us: "SAVE ME!" Please. We are not stupid. We know we have armor and we want to win just like everyone else. Not every match requires and assault push. Not every match requires brawling. Long range heavy firepower, however, is almost always useful.

Having assaults do a coordinated push with lights scouting and med/heavies adding fire support requires coordination and teamwork - something we all know is less-than-commonplace in pickup matches. If you see assaults doing something other than brawl pushes, ask yourself if the rest of the team is actively doing its part, rather than complaining about why the assaults aren't suiciding.

Agree, though i'll admit I'm one of those back seat drivers. When you put it in words it makes much more sense than thinking about it in my head.

[dario03]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Here is something I gripe about assault mech pilots. You do lets say 800 to 1000 damage and only get 1 kill. How about you focus a little more and remove the enemy from the field.

Its a bit hard to know what happened when looking at just the end screen, and you can do that with any weapon. I've had matches with 6 kills with less than 400 damage, and matches with 1000+ damage and only 1 or 2 kills. Was the 6 kills because I was more accurate or focus firing? Maybe, but then again maybe I actually spread damage like crazy and just happened to land the kill shot. And in the high damage low kill game I might have spread damage. But then again, maybe I focused a part on a bunch of enemies but they ran behind cover before I could kill them. And instead of waiting for them to show up again I just let a friendly with a better angle get the kill while I opened up some more enemies.

[BustedHipGaming]

Humpday, on 12 March 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

Agree, though i'll admit I'm one of those back seat drivers. When you put it in words it makes much more sense than thinking about it in my head.

Honestly, from an assault driver's view, all it takes to go from "backseat driver" to "helpful teammate" is this:

Instead of: "Jesus F-ing Chrst! Can't you assaults push them already?"
Do this: "Hey assaults, if you can push them in E5 we're ready with supporting fire."

One's just rude. The other lets us know our teammates are paying attention and won't just leave us out to dry. As an assault driver I am totally happy to just splatter damage around and remove armor even if other people get the kills if it means the team will win. You have a few med/heavies ready to knock out the stuff I soften up? Rock on. I'm in. You can have all the glory. Just finish off the guys I engage, hurt, and distract for you.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Here is something I gripe about assault mech pilots. You do lets say 800 to 1000 damage and only get 1 kill. How about you focus a little more and remove the enemy from the field.

Sometimes people just yoink your kills. When I play a PPC pop-tart, there's ample time for team members to get in and finish the target between volleys, so I can do a lot of real work but have little to show for it on my own kill-counter (it's why my BJ-3 has such a low KDR). I would imagine slower assaults have a very similar issue. They'll open up targets like so many tin cans, but it's the faster 'Mechs that run those targets down and secure the kill.

[lazytopaz]

Whole thing got upside on it's head when smaller and more agile mechs run the battlefield with their sniping and poptarting. No wonder pilots of assaults wanted to have some range too.
If we still had maps like old frozen city we would all be brawling like we used to.
But since most maps are turning towards being sniper fields and "adjustements" made to old ones turn them more into that... you adjust your playstyle to what you play, hence snipefest ensues, hence assaults go on being fire supports... bcs it's so easy to strip 'em.
That's why my assault bay is on shut down gathering dust. I prefer smthg smaller with bigger max KPH.
Ofc you play some assault mechs from time to time, to remember good 'ol days but in the end you leave their tonnage to pilots who play them on constant basis and adjusted their playstyle (maybe builds too) and way of thinking to current meta.

On side note : it's still hilarious when you murderball those snipers with your brawling mates and mop the floors with reds.

Edited by lazytopaz, 13 March 2017 - 12:55 AM.

[Pixel Hunter]

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 06 March 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

With the current trend of LRM stacking you should be too surprised....

thats my take on it. is it annoying to have sniper or LRM assualts on your team? sure is. is it because broken LRM boating?

100% is.

why bother plodding to a cap point when you know one little light mch can call down a maelstrom on your head? I see it all the time in my brawling mechs and sometimes even in my lights...you get seen by a scout mech and suddenly hundreds of missiles from that other LRM boat kodiak descend and unless there is a reall tall building or hill immediately nearby there isn't much you can do about it. this mean other assualts want to be the hammer and not the nail too

I don't think Light mechs with large guns are normally the problem with some exceptions (artic cheater or locust with large lasers?) you see, I run an Urbie with dual PPC's and that build is very niche and you need to be aware of who is looking at you or where you are hiding...make a mistake and you're dead. there's a lot of leeway I feel when you have the extra tons or armor and more slots for weapons.

as to the back seat driver issue: I get it, but if I had a nickle for every time an assault player ordered the lights to go throw themselves at a point, and promised to be there, i'd have almost as much money as getting a nickle for the amount of PPC shadowcats I see.

I for one stay with assaults because it behooves my PPC urbanmech or medium laser hunch I run, and I often see concerted pushes with assaults at the front...unfortunately I see a lot more timid sniper assaults

Edited by Gimpy117, 12 March 2017 - 07:50 PM.

[Xetelian]

N0ni, on 06 March 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

On an unrelated note: I saw a stormcrow with only 2 MPL yesterday, who even does that?

I just saw a KGC with 2 ALRM 10s and an LBX 10. Nothing else. Moving at 55kph.

Not moving fast enough to be a 360 engine...

So I tried to make one on smurfy

KGC-000B

I didn't see how much ammo this player started with but I politely suggested they check out meta mechs for a better build.







I brawl in my assaults because that's my favorite way to play. I personally hate seeing all LRM assaults.


My favorite DWF has 2 Gauss and 5 MPL and a bunch of ammo/heatsinks.

On maps like Frozen town (city? not big enough for a city) where all you do is poke I can poke, but on maps like Crimson where you can brawl because there is plenty of cover from LRMs I take it close range.


Now if only I could make that same build on a KDK.

Edited by Xetelian, 12 March 2017 - 08:00 PM.

[Elizander]

Second line fire support assaults are okay (so they can advance and share armor when needed) but all the way back sniping is a no-no.

[Escef]

Xetelian, on 12 March 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

I just saw a KGC with 2 ALRM 10s and an LBX 10. Nothing else. Moving at 55kph.

Not moving fast enough to be a 360 engine...

I saw an Atlas D-DC recently with ECM, AC20, ALRM20, and the stock 300 standard engine. One of the worst Atlas builds I have ever seen... Not as bad as the guy I used to regularly see running LRM Atlases with 225 engines, though.

[Clownwarlord]

Escef, on 13 March 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

I saw an Atlas D-DC recently with ECM, AC20, ALRM20, and the stock 300 standard engine. One of the worst Atlas builds I have ever seen... Not as bad as the guy I used to regularly see running LRM Atlases with 225 engines, though.

I know someone who runs an Atlas DDC with 1 ERPPC, 1 Tag and the rest dedicated to lrms. But hey if you going to go lrm might as well go full lrm right?

[Escef]

Clownwarlord, on 13 March 2017 - 01:10 AM, said:

I know someone who runs an Atlas DDC with 1 ERPPC, 1 Tag and the rest dedicated to lrms. But hey if you going to go lrm might as well go full lrm right?

I have two Loyalty Atlas-S, one of which with medium lasers, AC20, and LRM25 (a 10 and three 5-packs). Don't play it much.

But I have an Orion VA with 2*ML, AC20, and 4*LRM5. Between the 30% generic missile cool down quirk, fast fire, and cool down module, the missiles chain out like a Hexapult, and up close it brawls almost as well as a Hunchback.

I also have a couple brawler mechs with 10 tubes of LRMs just to give them something to do while waiting for the right time to engage.

Edited by Escef, 13 March 2017 - 01:26 AM.

[chucklesMuch]

Don't think it matters too much what I put on an assault (I tend to be SRM/ballistic brawler, ultra dakka or ppc-hawk). I dont play them enough to be that useful with them. (So apologies in advance for when the mad IIC goes for cbills).
You wont find any lurms on ma builds or plans to be an 'support mech', but I'm so not an assault pilot (or one that needs a heap of upskilling - especially in positional play, knowing when to commit and when to holdback etc).

Props to the good assault mech pilots out there!

[Electroflameageddon]

Magnus Santini, on 08 March 2017 - 06:35 AM, said:

People always talk about the assaults needing to share their armor. From the assault pilot's perspective, the rest of the team needs to share their firepower. An assault mech has better ability to (briefly) endure focus fire, so he can lead the charge. That is about 6-10 seconds. After that, he is overheated from 2-3 alphas, he is being focused by a lance or more, and he is about to die. So, for the assault to live, within that time, as many of the team as possible have to (1) fire on the assault's target or at least on one of the mechs shooting him, which suppresses the incoming fire; (2) remain visible and exposed to keep firing rate up and intimidate and divert some of the incoming fire; and (3) ideally take up new defensible positions in a line with the assault's position or slightly ahead, to move the line up.

Agreed.

Now putting it into practice sometimes (always) needs work. When we somehow do this, we are unstoppable. When we forget to do that, we are blown away quickly.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 March 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

I would imagine slower assaults have a very similar issue. They'll open up targets like so many tin cans, but it's the faster 'Mechs that run those targets down and secure the kill.

This is very correct, large alpha mechs should not be the ones bringing down mechs that are one touch unless they are the only ones left (which is very rare), especially since these mechs will often roll or hide more such that it is a waste of potential for an assault to focus on that mech, it is much better to have lights or mediums try to finish the mech.

[R Valentine]

As long as everyone votes for Polar Highlands, Alpine Peaks, and Frozen City, you'll see nothing but long range assault mechs(or mostly long range). There are some maps where being long range is harder than others, but then there are some maps that makes brawling nearly impossible. Tons of open space between cover points, absurdly large maps, maps with no high cover at all. You can either sit there for half the match and be useless or at least be able to return fire.

[Humpday]

Clownwarlord, on 12 March 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Here is something I gripe about assault mech pilots. You do lets say 800 to 1000 damage and only get 1 kill. How about you focus a little more and remove the enemy from the field.

I disagree, there have been plenty of stomp matches where I'll score 800-1000 damage and have like 1 kill, or to my dismay none. You're damaging the opponent which is what matters. This is especially true when you're directing your team to focus fire. Many times your team mates will deal the killing blow but you had most damage done on target. Also, mechs that are damage over time mechs such as my Hex ac-2 mauler, has trouble dealing killing blows as the damage per hit is low, so someone with boat load of lasers is likely to come around after you've stripped all the armor away and alpha the dude in the face, dealing a killing blow.

Also, that damage is stripping away components leaving the target much less able to defend itself.

I think the damage value is relevant. Less grind for the ligher mechs. Really though I don't' care as long as we win the match and I get paid.

When I'm in a brawling config though I'll not nearly do as much damage. I think 3 kills with about 400-600 damage is about average for my roll outs in a good match. I think I've racked 8 with under 800 damage iirc.

[Fobhopper]

Redwo1f, on 06 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Disappearing are the days of the brawling assaults...the front liners, you know, the job they were assigned and created to do!!! (with a few exceptions). What I am seeing more and more are assaults created for the fire support role. You know the ones? the LRM 60 Kodiak?!?!? The ERLL/ Gauss Dire, etc. etc.

So here's what typically happens when 3 out of 4 members of Charlie lance are fire support and stand back hoping for targets....

YOU LOSE.

Mediums are suddenly forced to be front liners, a role they weren't designed for. Huge pressure on the remaining heavies (they better be good brawlers now, which often these days many aren't).

...the team falls apart one by one while the fire support assaults sit back with all their precious armor on the outskirts of the battle.

Ughh!!!!

Just the other day I watch a brilliantly adept player (*cough*) with his sole load-out 3ERLL on his Direwolf (!!!!!!!) sit back on the island and attempt to provide fire support while the rest of the team crumbled.

This is a terrible trend, imho. Out of role mechs, the disappearance of the brawling assaults...and now the way it is, everything else being equal, a good predictor of success or failure is the make up of Charlie lance.

:/

Its not an assault mechs job to be your bullet sponge, you can jump on a cactus if you think its our job to die just so you can look leet on the killboards. That being said though, there are 2 parties to blame for the near extinction of brawler assaults.

1) Is PGI's fault. With most of the map reworks, almost all of the brawling space has been removes for wide open spaces. Frozen City used be a fantastic close to mid range firefight until the rework that put the main objectives in a giant open valley where everyone and their mother can shoot you. Even the new maps have the same problem, Grim Plexis has a massive open valley with an objective thats between 2 large hiss/bases. River city got opened up and spread out. Polar Highlands is a massive open field with very small hills that assault mechs can barely hide behind, and an absolute BANE to brawlers. you often times have to travel 2km from the drop off before you even get into LRM/Gauss/PPC range. With most of the brawling maps removed, the only maps left that you can brawl in anymore is Veridian Bog, HPC, and to a lesser extent Mining Colony. Especially since Inner Sphere mechs have much shorter range as it is compared to clan mechs (as well as weighing more and taking more hardpoints, and XL insta-death) its already a bad decision to bring a brawler thats limited to 3 maps to be good in. Its safer to bring mid-long range weapons that can fight in from longer ranges, instead of being a close range brawler that inevitably means you are one of the first to die trying to push/bullet sponge for your team.

2) Is the players fault, because being a brawler is more and more being a waste of a mech space. Being a brawler is incredibly inefficient at the best of times, and you are required to spend so much more time just trying to get into weapon range before you can even fire. So you are seeing players and the meta fall into the same fatal hole ALL other MW games have fallen into in online multiplayer, Gauss/PPC spam. When an assault commits to a fight, they either live with most weapons.armor gone, or they die in the push and are forced to either watch other team members play, or quit match and drop into another mech for another game while they wait for the mech to get free'd up. Being fire support not only allows the player to play the match for longer, but it also means that they dont have to commit to a single fight. They can continue to fight and pull back, and move and fire some more. Why load up on Pulse Lasers and AC10/20s that are super hot and not great for brawling over a prolonged period of time when you can spend more of the game jumping back and forth from cover shooting people and dealing constant damage throughout the match.

PPC/Gauss/ERLL are far more reliable weapon systems since so many maps have been opened up, and so very little cover to be had over major objectives. Why take a dual AC20 KGC and get my *** shot the hell up just trying to make it to an objective when I can take dual Gauss and ERLL and fight clanners more on their terms. And for the clan side, why get into brawling range when I can tear apart my enemy with superior weapon ranges? IS weapons are better at closer range, so why fight them at their advantage when I can shoot them at much longer distances to my advantage. Why play the brawler game if I dont have to.

The meta in the game favors long range weapons because maps are so open, and there isnt enough cover to force clan mechs into close range. It is complete suicide for an brawler atlas, kgc or even stalker to try and take the objective on maps like Polar, Grim and Forest colony. There isnt any cover, we get outranged and we dont have the speed to get out of **** if the battle turns bad or team members fail to follow an assaults push.

[Electroflameageddon]

I used to love the original Forest Colony and the original Frozen City because they were brawling maps. I did well in them with HBK's. Now, running a brawler is tantamount to suicide unless you luck out and drop in 1 of the 3 remaining brawl friendly maps.

The only way that I have seen a decent brawl on maps like Polar Highlands is when I was dropping in a group. We had a couple of ECM mechs with us and we somehow managed to sneak through the valleys to get to the other team of snipers. It was fun to ruffle their feathers a bit. Couldn't do it again to save our lives (we tried).

Personally, I would like to see more balanced maps with more cover for your mechs. I don't mind the wide open valleys which punish people for breaking cover, but there needs to be avenues of approach that allows strategic players to utilize cover to get to the other team. Otherwise you end up with two teams entrenched on opposite sides of the map. The smart team waits for the other one to get impatient and rush the other through killing fields. It is nice when you are on the smart team, not so great when you are playing with impatient players....

[Tatula]

I just wanted to point out that assaults often get high damage and few kills because damaged enemies tends to run away and end up dying at someone else's hand. Assaults are not fast enough to chase down damaged enemies.