188 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

GuardDogg, on 06 March 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

If you haven't noticed. Assaults are easy targets, and destroyed in seconds, compared to lights that take 3x more fire hits than an assault and still run around. Assaults have problems staying in front of the team due to speed, and noticed. People are suppose to be afraid of Assaults, soon as they come around the corner. But in this case. Being afraid of an Assault mech Doesn't do well in MWO.

I love your generalization. Locusts evade a shitload of fire, ACHs as well. However, when you have problem shooting up an oversized 35t light mech e.g. a Jenner IIC, Wolfie or Panther, then it says more about you than about the game's balance. Lights as a class are in a sorry state as should be obvious from the permanent low queue. If you don't believe it, play a match with several T1 guys and see how easily a 35t mech gets hit if you aren't careful

Assaults aren't weak imo. The problem is that heavies are overall better. They have nearly the firepower of the assaults and nearly the agility of mediums. That means they usually can get out when they positioned badly or when a team leaves them behind - assault on the other hand are screwed. Therefore the heavy queue is nearly always the top queue

Edited by Bush Hopper, 06 March 2017 - 12:28 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

Bush Hopper, on 06 March 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

I love your generalization. Locusts evade a shitload of fire, ACHs as well. However, when you have problem shooting up an oversized 35t light mech e.g. a Jenner IIC, Wolfie or Panther, then it says more about you than about the game's balance. Lights as a class are in a sorry state as should be obvious from the permanent low queue.

Assaults aren't weak imo. The problem is that heavies are overall better. They have nearly the firepower of the assaults and nearly the agility of mediums. Therefore the heavy queue is nearly always the top queue

Everytime I go pilot my Jenner IIC-A to elite it out, I feel I'm a being instant target for the enemy, I remember I played frozen snipe city, I was escorting 3 assaults when we got to a nice position, I had 3 lrm boats fire upon me, a sniper, a cheetah with a vendetta. I ran for my life while the assaults was left alone I felt so confuse either bad luck, or some random pug remember me back in my swol days.

[Weeny Machine]

Battlemaster56, on 06 March 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

Everytime I go pilot my Jenner IIC-A to elite it out, I feel I'm a being instant target for the enemy, I remember I played frozen snipe city, I was escorting 3 assaults when we got to a nice position, I had 3 lrm boats fire upon me, a sniper, a cheetah with a vendetta. I ran for my life while the assaults was left alone I felt so confuse either bad luck, or some random pug remember me back in my swol days.

TBH, I go for Jenner IICs first, too. The reason is simple: the are, easy to hit, easily crippled and lose a lot of firepower when an arm comes off or they explode outrightly.

[Moldur]

Brawling assaults haven't happened for awhile... like... since 2012. I mean besides the occasional, "oh woops, our 100 tons ran into each other in the first 2 minutes, guess it's time to kill each other."

Assaults require much more foresight and sheer luck than the other classes due to their lack of speed (team moving the right way, ending up in a useful spot, etc.) Without cooperation or at least a 6th sense of how the map will flow, you have to pick where you're going to go based off things that haven't happened yet, and if it doesn't turn out that way, then you're SOL.

I like to play my assaults as a "hidden force." Mid-late game and most of the enemy team hasn't even seen me yet. I'm still 80 something %. There is less focus fire, and more people going for individual peeks and picks. Ideally, they aren't acting with the knowledge that there could be an all-up assault still sitting around. Maybe 2 or 3 guys make a bad peek and get eating alive by my alpha, or I am able to push the team up as a tank, absorbing all the fire around the corner instead of my 60% teammates, preserving our teams firepower to easily wipe the last half of the team.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bush Hopper, on 06 March 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I didn't say he has to lead. However, what I see lately is that assaults and heavies sit FAR in the back basically cut off from the rest but not because they were left behind but because they just stopped to snipe

Even good players have this issue. It is what happens when you have too large disparate range builds in a team composition. That said assaults should typically have longer range than anyone else on the team since they tend to have the lowest speed capability to get within short range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 March 2017 - 12:55 PM.

[xTrident]

Personally when I'm using a light or medium I want to get out there and engage with the enemy before my assaults get there. I'm much more capable of pop-shotting the enemy than an assault... duh. So let me engage the enemy early, do some damage, hopefully pretty good damage before the assaults even decide to really engage. That way the enemy has some, (if not many enemy targets if there are others like me doing this) damaged so it's easier for them to finish them.

What I can never understand are the hero players. Someone in a light or medium that feels it's right to run right out to the enemy I'm guessing not taking much of any cover and dying right away... That helps no one. It's one less target for the enemy to concentrate on, if they died that quickly they did little to no damage and their team is already down a player. When I run a light/medium with plans to scout/engage a bit I absolutely try not to put myself in a terrible position that I die before my team can get there. I just want to get some damage in as well as force the enemy to pay some attention to me. I love when I'm able to pull four players away on the enemy team just to try and come after me.

But I've got the Atlas and Kodiak for front line pushes and as many have said that pilot assaults, you've got to have a good supporting team otherwise the match is a complete waste for the assault player. And far too many people are afraid to take a hit in this game for assaults to push.

Edited by xTrident, 07 March 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Issue like always is the lrms, more lrms on your team the more likely you're not going to win.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 06 March 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

One of the few things I enjoy most is walking up in my Atlas and face tanking a bad guy.

Having said that, the last time I was in my Atlas I got left so far behind the enemy lights tore me to shreds in the backfield.

Speed is key I know, but even with max engine it only goes so fast and you sacrifice a lot of that in your face firepower to equip it.

Unless XLs have become acceptable in an Altas... O.o

Edited by CDLord HHGD, 06 March 2017 - 01:38 PM.

[Charli3 Tang0]

I mainly run assaults, and have since beta (REAL beta...). Not all assaults are created equal. Some are suited for tanking... most are not. Like with any weight class, it's better to understand the strengths of the chassis and play it to its max potential, rather than trying to force it to work in a capacity it cannot handle. There will always be exceptions for exceptional pilots, but the best of the best know how to push the envelope in a logical way.

What I find more important is the willingness of your drop to work together and coordinate. If you're NOT supporting your assault mechs, regardless of the role they're supposed to fill, you're most likely going to get destroyed. As has been stated, regardless of their role, assault mechs are carrying the most firepower on your team. You cannot afford to let them run unsupported. This is of course assuming said assault pilots are playing for the team and not yolo-ing after handing off their beer.

A good pilot looks at their entire drop and understands the role of every mech (yes, even without knowledge of each chassis' loadout, you can do this). If you have several Dires on your team, you already know they'll most likely be the slowest on the team and they won't be any help to you if you're not in their line of site, so don't push out too far ahead of them. If you have Atlas', it's probably safe to assume they'll be willing to tank, but also know they can't push every corner first and last the entire game. They'll be lucky to survive the initial skirmish, even if everyone was playing well. If you have Warhawks, assume they'll be fast attack / pokers that won't be able to tank much at all. I would NEVER expect to see an Awesome on the front line.

No, do not always expect your assaults to be in front of you tanking. Yes, there is some merit in "sharing armor" but that too should be situational. Is it better for a Dire set up to snipe, that is doing it's job well, to push up purely to take damage, meanwhile being unable to optimally put out damage to other targets? I'd prefer a pilot play their chassis to their potential, not the team's expectation, especially if those expectations are uninformed.

***All of the above assumes the pilot knows what they are doing with their chassis. It is impossible to have a relevant conversation about pilots who don't know how to play the game...***

[Khobai]

no assault is suited for tanking

even atlases die in about 5 seconds to any amount of concentrated firepower

the whole concept of tanking went out of the game when they decided to make it 12v12

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 06 March 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

the whole concept of tanking went out of the game when they decided to make it 12v12

You mean when they made this a team oriented game right?

It is rare that you can get all 12 mechs focusing down the same mechs, which is why in 8v8s Atlases take about the same amount of time to focus down.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Assaults don't map to the RPG archetype of tank.

[Khobai]

Quote

You mean when they made this a team oriented game right?

it was a team oriented game in 8v8 too. you couldnt win by yourself. but at least assaults could tank for more than a few seconds. and lights were actually useful.

the issue isnt so much that we have 12v12. just that they scaled the game poorly when they went to 12v12. assaults die too fast now and lights are of questionable use.

they did nothing to counteract the increased amount of focused fire, especially pinpoint damage focused fire.

Quote

Assaults don't map to the RPG archetype of tank.

nope. and in most cases heavies are more survivable because of their smaller hitboxes and better speed/agility.

assaults are mostly just huge targets that a lot of the time are just liabilities to your team because of their slowness. granted there are a few competitive assaults but for the most part that generalization is true.

Edited by Khobai, 06 March 2017 - 02:17 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 06 March 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

it was a team oriented game in 8v8 too. you couldnt win by yourself. but at least assaults could tank for more than a few seconds. and lights were actually useful.

Lights are more useful in 8v8, but assaults have the same capability to tank as they did in 12v12 because it is not very common to get 12 mechs firing at the same thing. The fact lights are more useful suggests this since the reason lights are more useful is because you can cover more approaches with suitable firepower (which do not always have overlapping lines of sight).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 March 2017 - 02:14 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

but assaults have the same capability to tank as they did in 12v12 because it is not very common to get 12 mechs firing at the same thing.

this is false. you may not have all 12 players firing at an assault. but more players will be firing at an assault in 12v12 than 8v8.

[Josh Seles]

I've seen this many times, things like LRM Kodiaks, Scorches, Atlases and even the Battlemaster. That said, I play my assaults a certain way, that being med to short range. I like my SRM's. My current favorite assault is the shotgun Scorch, that's the way it's been since release day, and the way it will stay.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 06 March 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

this is false. you may not have all 12 players firing at an assault. but more players will be firing at an assault in 12v12 than 8v8.

No, it really isn't false because it is rare that you can that many people focusing down a mech. The real difference between 12v12 is not TTK for the average mech, but terrain coverage.

Khobai, on 06 March 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

the issue isnt so much that we have 12v12. just that they scaled the game poorly when they went to 12v12. assaults die too fast now and lights are of questionable use.

they did nothing to counteract the increased amount of focused fire, especially pinpoint damage focused fire.

If you think the reason lights are of questionable use is because of the amount of focused fire, then you really don't understand the key differences between 12v12 and 8v8. The real difference is above, it has to do with lanes of fire rather the volume of fire in a specific lane. That's why lights are stronger when there are less people on the field, because of how many people can spot and shoot at the light is limited.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 March 2017 - 02:39 PM.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

Backstanding Assaults are placed fairly high on the board of "Things that annoy me about MWO".

They in fact annoy me so much, that I can't find it in my heart to offer them any advice on their wrongdoing here.

Just this:
"Press the W goddammit!"

Edited by Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf, 06 March 2017 - 03:06 PM.

[Ken Harkin]

GuardDogg, on 06 March 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

If you haven't noticed. Assaults are easy targets, and destroyed in seconds, compared to lights that take 3x more fire hits than an assault and still run around.

You are kidding right? Assaults die when they charge in unsupported and the enemy line can and does focus fire on them. When assaults and heavies press the assault can focus fire then they succeed.

Seriously, the OP is right on target. I don't know how many matches I have watched play out in the last couple of weeks where the last couple mechs left are assaults mounting ERLL / PPC / LRM / Gauss and have no open components. They hang back for the whole fight and only get stuck in when the rest of the team is crushed and they are hunted down or when a couple locusts sneak up behind them and **** them. I will often run a King Crab with 2 Gauss and 2 PPC but when the time comes to push I PUSH. You have to run in and make the damage happen as a part of the group and you have to take your fair share of fire.

It is actually much harder to run an assault than most people assume. The lack of speed kills you for errors in positioning. Lights and medium can turn a corner, see a whole lance and bug out. Heavies can get into a bad spot, take some serious hits and escape still effective. If an assault commits at the wrong time everyone focuses on it and it cannot escape. At the same time if the assault commits at the right time it racks up kills better than anything else. People, especially new players, gravitate to the assaults because of perceived durability and firepower. They have that durability but being the focus of four other mechs makes short work of any amount of armor, especially when you can't return the DPS to lessen the incoming fire.

Me, I've lately fallen in love with my 4 SRM6+A Bushwacker P1. The alpha is great and the speed impressive. It doesn't attract the attention an assault does and allows me to get into position to obliterate unobservant assaults and heavies. If one of the enemy big boys is already damaged I am almost assured the kill if I want to face hug him to death.

[1Grimbane]

Dakka wolves are fire support, so is any AC boating assault. .i run both dakka and lrg pulse wolves. only in the kodiak or atlas do i push the front. i like the fire support role in non atlas assaults especially in the 4 er Lrg Las warhawk.