392 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Zuesacoatl, on 09 March 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

*snip*

Sad to say, but given the reception of posts and the overarching themes through PTS forums and the majority of responses, I don't care about putting words in your mouth or not. The overwhelming majority opinions from posts is obvious. You sit in an extreme minority right now.

Imposing such a massive addition to the grind with new costs that never existed before is an absolutely foolish thing for PGI to do. The fact that the overwhelming majority of players will not even be able to get their mechs back to what they were before this change hits (unless PGI unborks it before then) will screw people over to an extreme degree; and they won't tolerate it. That's reality; and because of that, I don't care if one or two veteran players don't think that . . . the game will still be screwed after screwing that much of the player base.

[Gas Guzzler]

Cadoazreal, on 08 March 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

Its not that expensive, im going to be able to afford more mechs with the cbills ill get back after treeing all of my 50 ish mechs.

That's great for you that you only have 50 mechs. Because of the ridiculous amount of cash I have spent on this game, I have over 300 mechs, I'll be lucky if I can master 20% of them with the refunds.

[lpmagic]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 March 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

That's great for you that you only have 50 mechs. Because of the ridiculous amount of cash I have spent on this game, I have over 300 mechs, I'll be lucky if I can master 20% of them with the refunds.

This akin to closing the high stakes tables at a casino, at least in my eyes. it is bad juju to close off the most open-walleted players in the game today, in the hopes of gaining new ones? I.......I don't get it.

[MerryIguana]

[FrigginWaffle]

I urge you to rethink this PGI. Many players have voiced reasonable arguments to not follow through with it. This game is already a grinder and with the 120+ mechs in my mechlab, I'd have to add an eternal grind to outfitting them completely, and that's only if I keep my builds the way they are. God forbid I change my loadout a bit and need to rework the nodes. I appreciate the effort you put into this, but you stubbornly keep pushing this idea down people's throats. The Jurassic Park quote "our scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."comes to mind.
Not threatening but just expressing my sentiment: I will probably not continue playing this game if this follows through. It's a kick in the nuts for everyone. Listen to your players, for the love of random deity.

Edited by FrigginWaffle, 09 March 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[QuePan]

im ok with most of the skill tree , my biggest issue with it has always been the CBILL costs for the skill tree ,

Cbills should be for buying mechs and mech components and consumables nothing else PERIOD , skill tree shouldn't cost a currency outside of a form of XP ive never seen a tree cost GOLD , Energy credits or any other form of a currency that you buy gear with in any other game .my 30+million cbills wont cover 1/4 of what i would like to play in the game let alone let me fit "NEW preordered mechs or allow me to buy mech for cbills and fit them and use the skill tree on the mechs i own already ,
if i cant play the game my way then why bother buying anything else or play the game .

your shooting yourself in the foot PGI , when a game becomes more grind than fun its done lost my interest . when you devalue time already spent in game with a power creep system that forces you to spend X times more time to keep up im elsewhere and some other company gets my game moneys that's the sad truth of it .
i do adore the devs and staff at PGI i love the passion put into the game and the game play , but its a competitive game that creeped itself to death with this system as it is . IMO

[metallio]

FrigginWaffle, on 09 March 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Not threatening but just expressing my sentiment: I will probably not continue playing this game if this follows through. It's a kick in the nuts for everyone. Listen to your players, for the love of random deity.

Yeah, I've tried to put this into similar words. It's like telling a coach I can't jump vertically ten feet. You can tell me what you want me to do all day long...I simply am incapable of making it work. If I could, I wouldn't mind...but I can't. I probably won't uninstall and I'll probably log on to shoot something once in a while, but this completely changes the game from something that I've been willing to slowly spend years grinding away on and find myself mildly amused at the slowly building stable of mechs etc...to something that I don't even pretend there's a point to.

I'm not even mad or flabbergasted or whatever...I just can't do it, so I won't. I mean, how the he11 could I?

[process]

I'm not going to quit playing entirely, but the new system will absolutely affect my purchasing decisions, most likely to PGI's detriment.

[CainenEX]

Arkhangel, on 09 March 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

THANK YOU.

I mean, sheesus, the only reason PGI came out of closed Beta as fast as it did was because IGP FORCED them to go live. there's a reason they kicked those guys to the curb how they did, even if it did screw them a bit funding wise.

I also love the guy who said "the world champs should be talked to." the thing I don't think said people realize is the Tournament Server was frozen last February or March. EMP simply focused on everything that was exploitable in there, and they had Proton to coordinate them. ever ran into EMP without Proton with a competent team?

You'll murder them. they can play to a system's exploitability, yes, but things have gotten far less broken over the past year on the live server.

@banana: actually.... most of that "quality feedback" I saw, and i've read over every PTS feedback page has either been "Boo, change bad!" "Waaah, I don't want to actually pay my hard-working bay techs" or "Waaah, more Maps and Game modes we won't actually play!"

stuff that hasn't been that actually DID get looked at, and what had merit to more than just the poster actually got added. I agree the system ain't gonna be perfect, but if you're claiming you'll quit the game over changes..well... welcome to playing an MMO. change happens, you adapt, or you leave. crying about it doesn't help, because it's going to happen in one way or another.

this comment gave me cancer

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

QuePan, on 09 March 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

im ok with most of the skill tree , my biggest issue with it has always been the CBILL costs for the skill tree ,

Cbills should be for buying mechs and mech components and consumables nothing else PERIOD , skill tree shouldn't cost a currency outside of a form of XP ive never seen a tree cost GOLD , Energy credits or any other form of a currency that you buy gear with in any other game .my 30+million cbills wont cover 1/4 of what i would like to play in the game let alone let me fit "NEW preordered mechs or allow me to buy mech for cbills and fit them and use the skill tree on the mechs i own already ,
if i cant play the game my way then why bother buying anything else or play the game .

your shooting yourself in the foot PGI , when a game becomes more grind than fun its done lost my interest . when you devalue time already spent in game with a power creep system that forces you to spend X times more time to keep up im elsewhere and some other company gets my game moneys that's the sad truth of it .
i do adore the devs and staff at PGI i love the passion put into the game and the game play , but its a competitive game that creeped itself to death with this system as it is . IMO

It is a CBill sink to replace the module cbill sink. PGI is a company looking to make money. They want you to spend real money on mechs. Because of that, they devise ways to make you spend cbills on in game things so you don't have enough to buy mechs. A la the double heat sink "tax." It makes perfect design sense for the skill tree to cost cbills. You can debate the "right" amount all day long but it really is a no brainer for PGI to do this.

Now the other issues that have been widely exposed in the forums and elsewhere..... Moar testing prease!

[MrKvola]

SFC174, on 09 March 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

I know that I went through several periods in my first few months where the skill gap seemed insurmountable, especially when the matchmaker put my sorry T4-T5 *** against T1 players. When I hit T3 and started facing T1 players all the time, I questioned whether or not I'd be able to progress any further, so badly did I get stomped. I managed to make it through though, learned many lessons and am T2 now. But, point being, if I had done that with the new skill tree in place, I _feel_ as though I might have just given up. And since T5 players seem to regularly face T1 players now, I think any new players are in for a very rough time.

Not true. The matchmaker as it is currently set up allows a max tier difference of 2. That means that a T5 can be matched with T5, T4 and T3s. A T3 can be matched with all tiers. A T1 can be matched with T1, T2 and T3s. A T2 can be matched with T1, T2, T3 and T4s.

[Magik Jack]

Sereglach, on 09 March 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Imposing such a massive addition to the grind with new costs that never existed before is an absolutely foolish thing for PGI to do. The fact that the overwhelming majority of players will not even be able to get their mechs back to what they were before this change hits (unless PGI unborks it before then) will screw people over to an extreme degree; and they won't tolerate it. That's reality; and because of that, I don't care if one or two veteran players don't think that . . . the game will still be screwed after screwing that much of the player base.

That about sums it up.

[Oberost]

I've just found this on the internet. Credits to Tahribator...

[Holy Jackson]

I'm almost willing to bet money that the version that hits the live server will have the ability to bypass the grinding of nodes with mc microtransactions. I'm also almost willing to bet money that people that have been whaling will just buy mastery on their mechs, old and new, if they have insufficient funds.

Anyway, having just started playing within the last year, I don't find the new grind that bad. I've been trying to add mastered mechs of most tonnages, and trying to get a fair spread of modules, and I think I'm going to have most of my mechs at least 3/4 mastered after refunds on the new system.

I still feel like the number one issue is choice based customization and balancing. There's a reason why the ebon jaguar is really good and the dragon is not, and dumping quirks and giving every mech the same skill tree only makes this worse.

So please consider the following: Keep the existing quirks, or at least most of them, add the new skill tree, then edit the quirks. change one thing at a time.

Next, please consider making IS XL engines able to survive losing a torso. That goes a long way to powering up a lot of IS builds, and you can back off on quirks for IS a fair amout after that.

Finally, please consider making the skill tree node chains less interdependent and more with diminishing returns. Every time I click the fall damage node on the test server, my eyes roll. If you want to make it cost more to take the lower nodes, just make them worth less. This has been used forever in game.s

[SuperFunkTron]

I'm very excited about the system coming out this month. We'll finally be able to start using it and have fixes made to the game after full scale combat data comes in.

To the people claiming that all of those players who own large numbers of mechs are getting slapped and cheated and are upset, please stop. I've bought a good chunk of my mechs, happily, and will continue to buy mechs that interest me, even in the new system.

I get that people are upset about not being able to immediately translate their old mech mastery to the new system, and I can sympathize with that sentiment. However, are there people out there that are planning on playing their first 100 matches each in a different mech? I can't speak for everyone but I'm going to be starting with about 60 million in module refunds probably, and even then, I won't be rushing to upgrade my mechs until I actually plan on using them. I will, sensibly, start with mechs that I use the most, and slowly upgrade accordingly from there. Out of the 115 mechs I have, I am consistently using about 20-30 of them, with occasional sprees in about another 30. There is a huge chunk of my garage that simply sits there. Despite having mastered those mechs, there is no skin off my back from not having the resources to upgrade them right away. I'm not upset by losing the the Master Badge because this isn't a pokemon game, and if I ever really start to feel the need to stick badges on the mechs collecting dust, I'll just play the mechs that I actually enjoy using to get the c-bills to upgrade those dust bunny collectors.

As frustrating as it may be to have to grind c-bills to master mechs in the new system, it provides a nice step wise upgrade system that allows early, cheep access to module abilities like radar deprivation and seismic senor (1.56 million to max out that tree, only 480 thousand to get 1 node of each compared to 12 million for the pair currently). This is a huge benefit to players with lower resources because they can actually use these abilities early on in their MWO career rather than waiting a long time before they even consider dropping the 12 million c-bills to buy those modules for a single mech. Helping prevent a huge gap between advanced and green players alike is a huge benefit for the game as a whole, even if it is causes upset in some groups (not all vets are happy, but there are also the vets that are very happy).

I'm not speaking for others here, but the costs associated with moving the game forward seem worthwhile to me because we are gaining role customization, decreasing the c-bill gap for old module abilities, decrease mastery costs for players with small stables by removing the rule of 3, and PGI is taking the time to examine mobility based on not only mech size but address those mechs who are known for mobility.

Yes, we lose badges, but we've had at least 2 months now to start saving up for our upgraded our priority mechs so I'm not butt hurt, just looking for how to transition to a system offering a lot more than its taking.

To sum it up briefly, there are growing pains here, but it looks to be for the better of the game and community as a whole.

[Anatidaephobia]

MrKvola, on 09 March 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Not true. The matchmaker as it is currently set up allows a max tier difference of 2. That means that a T5 can be matched with T5, T4 and T3s. A T3 can be matched with all tiers. A T1 can be matched with T1, T2 and T3s. A T2 can be matched with T1, T2, T3 and T4s.

You're wrong. I was in T4 soloqueue for a month or so [just reached T3 wth my own non-mastered builds], regularly got T1 players in my games as well as tier5 new players in the same match; and no it wasn't because of long queue times, happened in the morning, at noon, evening, night, ... in EU time, with all servers selected. Ask Emu, Haven, Proton, ...


If you don't believe me, make a new account, you'll get T1 and T2s.

Edited by Anatidaephobia, 09 March 2017 - 10:22 AM.

[SteelHoves]

the new skill tree does not add customization. what it does is add another layer to the META. you have meta mechs based on their weapons hard points and location. you have Meta builds for those and all other mechs. Now you have 1 or 2 Meta Skill tree builds. so in affect your are making the average player who enjoys playing his non meta build with his now non meta skill tree build a bigger negative for his or her team.Mechs that boat weapons will net a skill point advantage over mechs who will need to grab points for 2 or 3 weapon systems. Competitive players will just like they do now build and play only the best Meta. When i mention competitive players i don't just mean Comp teams i mean anyone who wants to win and be a positive for his or her team.You will see more and more a half dozen or so mechs and nothing else. way worse than it is now. You will also still get practically zero bonus for scouting or trying to anything other than get KMDD and kills. with that being true why would anyone waste c-bills and xp for skills that don`t help that.The skill tree will make the gap of Meta mechs and everything else that much wider . I was extremely excited when i heard new skill tree at mech con but now all i see is a rushed product to squeeze money from people in a new way by PGI.

[QuePan]

Jaybles, on 09 March 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

It is a CBill sink to replace the module cbill sink. PGI is a company looking to make money. They want you to spend real money on mechs. Because of that, they devise ways to make you spend cbills on in game things so you don't have enough to buy mechs. A la the double heat sink "tax." It makes perfect design sense for the skill tree to cost cbills. You can debate the "right" amount all day long but it really is a no brainer for PGI to do this.

Now the other issues that have been widely exposed in the forums and elsewhere..... Moar testing prease!

the issue is that its going to do the Reverse , there not going to make money , if people don't have money to buy mechs then they have no reason to buy Mech bays with MC , if you think this is going to get people to buy more premium time with MC?? its not most have enough and they see issues with it too and those without are feeling it harder
, its going to stretch a already stretched resource to paper thin levels i figured it out i will not be able to play the game at my current level without 6 plus months of grinding out the cbills and just use those bills to level mechs i own that's the truth of it ive never seen a skill tree that cost the use of a currency used to buy GEAR , XP yes Gold , Caps, energy credits ... NO NEVER .

[L Y N X]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 08 March 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

NOPE.

Halt. Achtung. Stop. Hold up. Whoa. Wait. Hang on a moment. Chotto matte. Slow down. Hit the brakes. Cease. Desist. Decelerate. Reduce momentum.

Wait just a ding-dang minute here why are you rushing this you weren't done yet.


Seriously. https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5644318

YOU ARE NOT DONE TESTING YET STOP
YOU HAVE NOT TRIED ENOUGH VARIATION TO GO LIVE YET STOP
IF YOU ARE HAVING TROUBLE GETTING PEOPLE TO TEST
IT IS NOT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT NEED TO HAVE MORE TESTING STOP
IT IS BECAUSE YOU STILL DO NOT OFFER ANY FORM OF REWARD FOR TESTING STOP
IF YOU ARE MAKING THIS LIVE BECAUSE NOBODY IS ON THE PTS STOP
IT IS NOT A SIGN THAT YOU ARE DONE STOP
THERE ARE MORE THINGS TO TRY WITH THIS STOP
PLEASE DO NOT RUSH LIKE THIS STOP
RUSHING NEVER GOT ANYTHING DONE FASTER STOP
IT JUST MADE IT HAVE TO BE REDONE AT LEAST ONCE MORE STOP
THIS IS A MISTAKE FULL STOP

Seems this is a rather huge MWO impact, given that the requirement to have 3 variants of a mech goes away, there will be no way in hell to undo the damage once this patch goes live, consider how many mechs will get sold to fund the mechs ppl wish to keep then the angst when you, PGI, rebalance mechs in the future. Please consider the 2nd and 3rd order impacts of this change to the community before you make such a fundamental change as you seem hellbent on making in rapid fashion. Please make sure you got this right the first time, please do not make this a iterative process the way your entire development has been to date. I love this canon too much to see it so casually boned so hard if you get it wrong.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

QuePan, on 09 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

the issue is that its going to do the Reverse , there not going to make money , if people don't have money to buy mechs then they have no reason to buy Mech bays with MC , if you think this is going to get people to buy more premium time with MC?? its not most have enough and they see issues with it too and those without are feeling it harder
, its going to stretch a already stretched resource to paper thin levels i figured it out i will not be able to play the game at my current level without 6 plus months of grinding out the cbills and just use those bills to level mechs i own that's the truth of it ive never seen a skill tree that cost the use of a currency used to buy GEAR , XP yes Gold , Caps, energy credits ... NO NEVER .

I'm not saying it will work the way PGI expects it to, I'm saying that every FTP game is designed to be very grindy to play on your impatience. This is to help motivate you to spend real money on the game. The module system was a cbill sink with this exact purpose in mind. If you thought PGI was going to replace this without instituting some form of cbill sink to replace it.... well welcome to the real world where things cost money and PGI needs to make money to stay in business. You can flame PGI for this all you want and stop spending money on MWO and walk away, what ever you choose to do, it's your money and your time. But that won't change the fact that as a business decision, this is in line with the FTP model.

This influence can also be seen in the addition of 6 module slots:

Community: Too expensive!

PGI: OK we lowered the cost...

Community: OMG Sweet 6 module slots!

PGI: Hook, line an sinker.... now they'll drop 200k cbills on consumables a match! we'll make back those node costs in no time!

Or, I could just be a crazy tinfoil hat wearing islander.

Edited by Jaybles, 09 March 2017 - 11:05 AM.