40 replies to this topic

[J0anna]

MechaBattler, on 11 March 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

I didn't say all the quirks were stripped. I'll endeavor to be more specific in the future. My concern lays more in bridging the balance of engines without making them all the same.

You aren't looking at the entirety of the 3068 system. The stalker 3F can easily field 4xMRM 40's and a LFE engine, with many tons available for ammo. That's 160 damage per mouse click (if no ghost heat), it should have around the same optimal as an LBX-10, so it's like firing 16 LBX-10's at once. No mech can survive 2 alpha's and most will die to one.

The de-coupling of mobility from engine size is a huge boost to the IS. Standard engines just got a huge boost, as there is no turn speed/twist speed difference in an Atlas with a 250 compared to a 350, and since EVERY IS mech can change engines, while far less than half clan mechs can - how is this not a buff for IS?

The XL engine will be for those mechs who are willing to be glass cannons or accelerate quickly, LFE's will be for most heavies and assaults, with standards being for those who want to maximize tank over gank.

If you look at 3068 weapons, you'll see the IS gets every weapon the clans currently have plus:

Heavy Gauss
Light Gauss
RAC 2
RAC 5
MRM 10
MRM 20
MRM 30
MRM 40

Clans get:
Large Heavy Laser
Medium Heavy Laser
Small Heavy Laser

IS also get targeting computers (in 3062)

That's what I want, add those and side torso death for an XL really doesn't matter anymore.

[Alan Davion]

J0anna, on 11 March 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

You aren't looking at the entirety of the 3068 system. The stalker 3F can easily field 4xMRM 40's and a LFE engine, with many tons available for ammo. That's 160 damage per mouse click (if no ghost heat), it should have around the same optimal as an LBX-10, so it's like firing 16 LBX-10's at once. No mech can survive 2 alpha's and most will die to one.

Yeah except for the fact that there is literally no possible way that you are going to hit with every single missile out of those 160 projectiles, not unless you're facing a legged Atlas, Awesome, Kodiak or some other equally huge mech at point blank range.

[Acehilator]

If they are really afraid of IS dominating the playing field with the new tech, they can nerf IS mechs when the new tech is live, and not half a year before. And the indirect IS buff due to decoupling is really minor... you can't drop engine sizes too much, or you are just too slow to get from point A to point B for Heavies and Assaults (Atlas with 250? dafuq?), too slow to flank for Lights and Mediums, and you will take more damage while going from cover to cover. Guess the whole game might become even more static, yay.

IS dominance... 80% IS mechs in solo QP, 95% group queue, 99% comp play... that would be a sight. Not that we had the reverse for over a year now

[J0anna]

Alan Davion, on 11 March 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

Yeah except for the fact that there is literally no possible way that you are going to hit with every single missile out of those 160 projectiles, not unless you're facing a legged Atlas, Awesome, Kodiak or some other equally huge mech at point blank range.

Don't need to hit them all, but we can all imagine what even 80 instantaneous damage (50% hit rate) in the tunnel in crimson river would do to most enemies....and if we got close and ambushed them, you'll probably be able to alpha quite a few.

Acehilator, on 11 March 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

(Atlas with 250? dafuq?)

Was an extreme example, I don't run an Altas with less than a 325 (335 preferred), but with de-coupling that will change....

[MechaBattler]

J0anna, on 11 March 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

You aren't looking at the entirety of the 3068 system. The stalker 3F can easily field 4xMRM 40's and a LFE engine, with many tons available for ammo. That's 160 damage per mouse click (if no ghost heat), it should have around the same optimal as an LBX-10, so it's like firing 16 LBX-10's at once. No mech can survive 2 alpha's and most will die to one.

The de-coupling of mobility from engine size is a huge boost to the IS. Standard engines just got a huge boost, as there is no turn speed/twist speed difference in an Atlas with a 250 compared to a 350, and since EVERY IS mech can change engines, while far less than half clan mechs can - how is this not a buff for IS?

The XL engine will be for those mechs who are willing to be glass cannons or accelerate quickly, LFE's will be for most heavies and assaults, with standards being for those who want to maximize tank over gank.

If you look at 3068 weapons, you'll see the IS gets every weapon the clans currently have plus:

Heavy Gauss
Light Gauss
RAC 2
RAC 5
MRM 10
MRM 20
MRM 30
MRM 40

Clans get:
Large Heavy Laser
Medium Heavy Laser
Small Heavy Laser

IS also get targeting computers (in 3062)

That's what I want, add those and side torso death for an XL really doesn't matter anymore.

We're supposed to be happy with inferior equipment just because they decoupled some of the mobility stats from the engine? They're still slow. Speed doesn't count for anything anymore? Why are people downplaying speed?

Engines should be balanced against each other. I'm not saying make everything the same. Or some huge over the top bonuses. Some structure for standard engines and some extra agility for XLs. They still have their other issues. But they're more specialized. Easier to accept that a Clan XL doesn't die on side torso if it isn't better at almost everything.

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 11 March 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

Is anyone running around with their hair on fire? Is anyone panicking?

Safe to say about half the forum posts, most of reddit and a fair bit of twitter, actually, yes.

[J0anna]

MechaBattler, on 11 March 2017 - 04:23 PM, said:

We're supposed to be happy with inferior equipment just because they decoupled some of the mobility stats from the engine? They're still slow. Speed doesn't count for anything anymore? Why are people downplaying speed?

Because agility is far more important than raw speed, currently agility and speed are tied to engine size, with de-coupling only speed is tied. while straight line speed and (especially) acceleration do matter, the ability to quickly change direction is now independent. Thus engine size is not as important as before.

You do realize that a RAC 5, can fire up to 6 slugs at one time. That's 30 points of damage from one weapon. Nothing in game can do that, Range of an AC 5 and 50% more damage than an AC 20. At range you'll be as accurate as the current UAC's, but up close... A Heavy Gauss does 25 damage close range for almost no heat (2), that's another weapon with no equal - and it's one slug. MRM 40 puts out 40 points of damage, with range and damage, it's like mounting 4xLBX 10's. All of these have NO Clan Counterparts.

PGI knows at least part of this is coming (if not all). Making ISXL engines better than LFE's (because they are already lighter), would simply eliminate all omnimechs (Clan and IS) from the game. There would never be a reason to take one, and would make battlemechs the only ones used. As it is, I doubt I'll waste time with any omnimechs when 3068 comes around (this summer(?) I believe Russ mentioned in the NGNG podcast). I'm more than happy to use those weapons in my victor with a LFE engine. Sure I'd love to run my heavy metal with an XL engine that didn't die if I lost a side, but I would MUCH rather have REAL 3068 weapons that can alpha an enemy mech if I want to set it up that way.

I want powerful mechs, that can actually kill enemies, not mechs that shoot marshmallows at each other.

[ice trey]

WolvesX, on 11 March 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

MW4 had an awesome mechlab in comparison.

MW4's mechlab was the number one reason I thought it was the weakest in the series.

Don't make a mechlab that prevents you from using canon stock configs.

(Or make it harder to teach new players how to play tabletop Battletech, for that matter. Bringing back the Battletech-style criticals system is the biggest praise I've got for MWO, and has made it way easier to get new players out of the woodwork. They don't freak out when they see record sheets anymore)

Edited by ice trey, 11 March 2017 - 05:58 PM.

[Alan Davion]

ice trey, on 11 March 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

Don't make a mechlab that prevents you from using canon stock configs.

This.

SO MUCH THIS~!

I had an absolute monster of a headache trying to setup canon stock configs for most of my favorite mechs.

Mechs like the SHD-2H and the VTR-9B.

[Mystere]

WolvesX, on 11 March 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

... ok. Then make IS XL engines work like Clam engines.

Or make the mechlabs like MW4.

MW4 had an awesome mechlab in comparison.

Yes, the solution is even less lore.

Paigan, on 11 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

AS someone playing purely clans, I still find it ridiculous how fragile IS Mechs with XL are.
There isn't even the 3-crit rule (that would also make clan Mechs more fragile, btw), so why should IS Mechs with a lost side torso die?
I think it would be fair if losing a side torso would mean something like:
Clans: -XX% speed and heat dissipation.
IS: -YY% speed and heat dissipation.

With YY being greater than XX. Like -50 vs -30 or whatever.

And not "I'm clan, I hardly care" vs "I'm IS, I'm dead now".

Then implement the 3-crit rule.

Edited by Mystere, 13 March 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Valhallan]

Mystere, on 11 March 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Then implement the 3-crit role.

But if they did that then the dreaded MG spider can actually kill metamechs cuz of poor rear armoring (which would be great imo)

[MechaBattler]

J0anna, on 11 March 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

Because agility is far more important than raw speed, currently agility and speed are tied to engine size, with de-coupling only speed is tied. while straight line speed and (especially) acceleration do matter, the ability to quickly change direction is now independent. Thus engine size is not as important as before.

You do realize that a RAC 5, can fire up to 6 slugs at one time. That's 30 points of damage from one weapon. Nothing in game can do that, Range of an AC 5 and 50% more damage than an AC 20. At range you'll be as accurate as the current UAC's, but up close... A Heavy Gauss does 25 damage close range for almost no heat (2), that's another weapon with no equal - and it's one slug. MRM 40 puts out 40 points of damage, with range and damage, it's like mounting 4xLBX 10's. All of these have NO Clan Counterparts.

PGI knows at least part of this is coming (if not all). Making ISXL engines better than LFE's (because they are already lighter), would simply eliminate all omnimechs (Clan and IS) from the game. There would never be a reason to take one, and would make battlemechs the only ones used. As it is, I doubt I'll waste time with any omnimechs when 3068 comes around (this summer(?) I believe Russ mentioned in the NGNG podcast). I'm more than happy to use those weapons in my victor with a LFE engine. Sure I'd love to run my heavy metal with an XL engine that didn't die if I lost a side, but I would MUCH rather have REAL 3068 weapons that can alpha an enemy mech if I want to set it up that way.

I want powerful mechs, that can actually kill enemies, not mechs that shoot marshmallows at each other.

I guess we'll have to see first just how much of a difference the engine decoupling makes.

But the new IS weapons. They're gonna tone them down from what the descriptions say. They're not just going to put RACs as is. They would be ridiculously overpowered. They did it with the Clan weapons, they'll probably do it to RACs. But MRMs being big LBXs is not encouraging. I would much rather have a stream fire with a tighter spread, yeah more face time, but better damage you can control. Almost forgot Heavy Gauss, that's gonna be a tricky slope for them to balance. I can't hazard what they'll try to keep it from one shotting mechs.

But that's a weapon balance issue. That shouldn't be a factor in engine balance. The engine decoupling might help. But I don't know if it's enough to make up for the C-XL being flatout better in every way. A Clan player once put it to me that the IS is more specialized but the Clans are all around better. I'd be okay with that if the IS engines truly did something better than the Clan XL. But they don't.

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Safe to say about half the forum posts, most of reddit and a fair bit of twitter, actually, yes.

They're not freaking out over this though. They're freaking out over the skill system. I don't have a problem working for my stuff. Even if it is working for it again, I know it's a one time issue because it's a new system. Maybe I'm just used to life shetting on me. I prefer to roll with the punches. I can't help but think people are being whiners. 200 mechs. They're not even gonna use them all. I'm finding it hard to have sympathy for people who have so much more. But I'd been holding back that opinion because I don't think it helps. Oh well.

Edited by MechaBattler, 11 March 2017 - 08:43 PM.

[Alan Davion]

MechaBattler, on 11 March 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

But the new IS weapons. They're gonna tone them down from what the descriptions say. They're not just going to put RACs as is. They would be ridiculously overpowered.

They can't put RACs in as described because IS ACs aren't rapid fire weapons to begin with.

IS ACs would have to fire multiple projectiles like the Clan ACs for RACs to be added as described in lore.

And we all know that ain't gonna happen.

[MechaBattler]

Alan Davion, on 11 March 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

They can't put RACs in as described because IS ACs aren't rapid fire weapons to begin with.

IS ACs would have to fire multiple projectiles like the Clan ACs for RACs to be added as described in lore.

And we all know that ain't gonna happen.

Not necessarily. They could make each shot deal less damage. Doesn't matter that the other ones don't.

[J0anna]

MechaBattler, on 11 March 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

I guess we'll have to see first just how much of a difference the engine decoupling makes.

But the new IS weapons. They're gonna tone them down from what the descriptions say. They're not just going to put RACs as is. They would be ridiculously overpowered. They did it with the Clan weapons, they'll probably do it to RACs. But MRMs being big LBXs is not encouraging. I would much rather have a stream fire with a tighter spread, yeah more face time, but better damage you can control. Almost forgot Heavy Gauss, that's gonna be a tricky slope for them to balance. I can't hazard what they'll try to keep it from one shotting mechs.

But that's a weapon balance issue. That shouldn't be a factor in engine balance. The engine decoupling might help. But I don't know if it's enough to make up for the C-XL being flatout better in every way. A Clan player once put it to me that the IS is more specialized but the Clans are all around better. I'd be okay with that if the IS engines truly did something better than the Clan XL. But they don't.

PGI doesn't balance components, Russ spoke about it in the podcast, they balance mechs (mobility, durability and firepower), so (hopefully) they are giving the IS more firepower (or access to firepower) if they want to give up durability. Don't know, they haven't said...

Also, while they have messed a little with damage, it's only been for energy weapons. Ballistics are pretty much accurate, in TT a RAC 5 can shoot up to 6 slugs (with a chance to jam) each doing 5 points of damage, so a max of 30 damage. Whether they do it as 6 shots or 12 (I guess they could go stupid and make it 30 slugs that stream out - then it's worthless) it is still very deadly up close. And dual heavy gauss on a King Crab will hurt (not to mention a 4xMRM 40 Stalker).

No matter, it's all conjecture, we'll know more Tuesday.

[Clownwarlord]

Really, another ******* thread I have to post these two link in I am going to lose my **** one someone.

IS
http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf

Clan
http://static.mwomer...an%20Quirks.pdf

As you can see, Offensive weapon quirks are focused on, but not all are removed. Again some of the agility quirks are also removed, BUT AS MENTIONED IN THE FRONT PAGE NEWS BLURBS PGI is planning on removing bonuses to mech agility so they can work on the base stats of the mechs to help their balancing.

I wish people would read some of this crap instead of post their conjectures. AND NO I AM NOT GOING TO RE-FIND ANY **** FOR YOU, you go do it yourself.

[Y E O N N E]

J0anna, on 13 March 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

PGI doesn't balance components, Russ spoke about it in the podcast, they balance mechs (mobility, durability and firepower), so (hopefully) they are giving the IS more firepower (or access to firepower) if they want to give up durability. Don't know, they haven't said...

That is silly. If they've given most 'Mechs a specific buff (i.e. 10% energy heat gen reduction), that should tell them it is an equipment problem, not a 'Mech problem.

[Alan Davion]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 March 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

That is silly. If they've given most 'Mechs a specific buff (i.e. 10% energy heat gen reduction), that should tell them it is an equipment problem, not a 'Mech problem.

And we've been saying that since, what? The 50% PPC quirks on the Marauder and Warhammer?

[Y E O N N E]

Alan Davion, on 13 March 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

And we've been saying that since, what? The 50% PPC quirks on the Marauder and Warhammer?

A lot longer than that.

[MechaBattler]

J0anna, on 13 March 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

PGI doesn't balance components, Russ spoke about it in the podcast, they balance mechs (mobility, durability and firepower), so (hopefully) they are giving the IS more firepower (or access to firepower) if they want to give up durability. Don't know, they haven't said...

Also, while they have messed a little with damage, it's only been for energy weapons. Ballistics are pretty much accurate, in TT a RAC 5 can shoot up to 6 slugs (with a chance to jam) each doing 5 points of damage, so a max of 30 damage. Whether they do it as 6 shots or 12 (I guess they could go stupid and make it 30 slugs that stream out - then it's worthless) it is still very deadly up close. And dual heavy gauss on a King Crab will hurt (not to mention a 4xMRM 40 Stalker).

No matter, it's all conjecture, we'll know more Tuesday.

PGI has balanced equipment repeatedly. Gauss charge mechanic is an obvious one. Clan LRMs firing in a stream instead of all at once. Clan Lasers having a higher duration. If RACs deal five damage per shot in the lore. Then they'll probably approach it from a direction open to interpretation. Possibly a spin up time or some other mechanic.

We really have no clue what they're going to do. So there's really no point arguing yet.