33 replies to this topic

[TooDumbToQuit]

G4LV4TR0N, on 13 March 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

I was checking this topic but apparently awesome LRM5 spread will be probably gone in few days:

https://mwomercs.com...h-skill-quirks/



What about C-LRM attack angle?

BTW, it seems you are more into IS mechs and IS-LRM when I am into C-LRM that have different patterns.

First off, nice find and I have no idea how he did that math but it is a keeper.

Getting hit by ACs or LRMs will cause shake. I assume the bigger the hit, the shake will be worse. I try to no longer stand and get hit but sometimes it happens and I remember being killed over a bit of time and never being really able to see or fire back. This would be a great thing to do in a PVP with along with a friend.

You are dead on as far as LRM angle. When I'm doing my "Attack LRMer", I try to get close and try to aim for the CT and if he does not do a torso twist, I can core or finish coring him pretty fast adding my LPL damage to his CT. It does not matter where your TAG is setting on, the LRMs will still go CT if close.

If you wanted to attack his ST, LRMs are not the thing to use. And yes, a bigger spread spreads wider, lol.

As far as IS LRMs. I'm a Clanner myself. I'm in a unit that does both now but going back to the clan does pass my mind from time to time. The skill trees are done on all of my Clan Mechs but I have something like 20 IS ones that are not finished. Here there are a fair amount of "older" players and many who prefer IS mechs.

A lot of the older players want to make sure that you understand about the 180-meter distance without damage that the IS ones have. So if I am playing a IS mech with LRMs I tend to stay further back. With a Clan Mech, I will go close.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 13 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

Yes, Kon. I can read (why would you reply othewise).

Like Cato and Rouge been sayin', Mods will be removed 21st of march, GXP and C-bills will be refunded. So OP can either say *well, nvm* or buy and test it out him/herself. If someone asks about the usability of Mods which get removed in a week anyways, chances are he did not know about the removal.

I'm the type of guy that will believe it on March the 23rd or so. Maybe. Otherwise, I still live in and answer questions about where we are now.

But he also asked: Also, do SRM's and SSRM's spread like LBX, meaning range affects it and they most effective in melee?

and

What about Artemis Clan LRM's, does it make difference when you launch them from 300 and 900 meters?

[Tesunie]

LikeUntoGod, on 13 March 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

It does not matter where your TAG is setting on, the LRMs will still go CT if close.

True, TAG will not guide your LRMs to any specific component, but I felt it was necicary to chime in for a moment here.

LRMs will always center the "spread" onto the CT as it tries to track it's target. However, as LRMs only track (change their course) at specific points within their flight path, it is possible that they will not hit the CT at all, even with a solid lock for the whole flight. They may hit the legs on faster/jumping mechs, or even arms and side torsos on slower mechs, depending upon how they are moving and twisting and/or hit box sizes/shapes.

Larger launchers have larger spreads, which can make them more effective at hitting more components, but that spread isn't always desired sometimes. But, it can come in handy when shooting LRMs at a target with a bad side torso, as you can take it off sometimes due to spread.

Distance has nothing directly to do with how well LRMs will hit the CT of a target, though other things do (such as distance giving your target more time to react to the incoming LRMs). TAG, Artemis and NARC do help reduce spread, and also provide more tracing/course correction points within their flight paths. (Meaning, your LRMs become more accurate).


Now. Continue on.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Tesunie, on 13 March 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

Distance has nothing directly to do with how well LRMs will hit the CT of a target, though other things do (such as distance giving your target more time to react to the incoming LRMs). TAG, Artemis and NARC do help reduce spread, and also provide more tracing/course correction points within their flight paths. (Meaning, your LRMs become more accurate).


Now. Continue on.

I tested this yesterday in a testing ground. At 250 Meters it almost totally hit the CT of the Atlas.

As I backed up, the damage started to show on it's ST and arms. I do not know how much damage, but it was clear to see.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

LikeUntoGod, on 13 March 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

I'm the type of guy that will believe it on March the 23rd or so. Maybe. Otherwise, I still live in and answer questions about where we are now.

But he also asked: Also, do SRM's and SSRM's spread like LBX, meaning range affects it and they most effective in melee?

and

What about Artemis Clan LRM's, does it make difference when you launch them from 300 and 900 meters?

Sure bud, whatever floats your boat. Let's just hand OP all information he needs and let him decide what to do with said informations and what "type of guy" he wants to be (or she ).

Question regarding SRM, ASRM, SSRM and C-LRM have been answered as far as i can tell.
The only thing i might add is that SRM launcher locations also have a huge say. The tighter the launchers are packed together the smaller the spread is. Especially while leading shoots.
Just look at my epic drawing skills:


That's why a Griffin 3M (4x launcher in one sidetorso) wins out over a Griffin 2N (2x launcher each sidetorso) or a MAD-IIC SCORCH (4x Lauchner in sidetorsos tightly packed) wins out over a HGN-IIC-B (2x launcher in left arm + 2x launcher in right sidetorso).

LikeUntoGod, on 13 March 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

I tested this yesterday in a testing ground. At 250 Meters it almost totally hit the CT of the Atlas.
As I backed up, the damage started to show on it's ST and arms. I do not know how much damage, but it was clear to see.

It also heavily depends on launcher size and also the mech (target) geometry.
LRM 5 for example have spread of roughly 3 meter while LRM 20 have almost 7 meter. Besides, the CT of an atlas is as wide as a lightmech. It's also centermass heavy,
If you fire on a trebuchet's side profile even a LRM 5 will miss left and right thanks to the very small centermass sideprofile.

Check this for further informations:
https://mwomercs.com...ad-please-vote/

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 13 March 2017 - 02:14 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

LikeUntoGod, on 13 March 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

I tested this yesterday in a testing ground. At 250 Meters it almost totally hit the CT of the Atlas.

As I backed up, the damage started to show on it's ST and arms. I do not know how much damage, but it was clear to see.

most likely the reason for this is the Mechs positioning,
if you are facing his CT and firing at 200m the missiles have 1.3 seconds to reach the target, so the Mech has less time to twist to spread the damage, also that close they fly fairly flat, so not much of an arc, meaning the large front CT is likely to take more of the impact.
further out the missiles fly in a much more pronounced arc, so not only do they rain down on the target, meaning they hit the much smaller top hitboxes (meaning they are more likely to miss wide and maybe hit something else) but at 450m the missiles take about 3 seconds to reach the target. meaning the target has more time to twist to spread damage or to reach cover.

firing at a targets CT, while the Mech is looking straight at you meens the CT has this huge surface area, rotate 20^o and the target area effectively becomes 25% smaller, at 45^o it is effectively half the size.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Rogue Jedi, on 13 March 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

most likely the reason for this is the Mechs positioning,
if you are facing his CT and firing at 200m the missiles have 1.3 seconds to reach the target, so the Mech has less time to twist to spread the damage, also that close they fly fairly flat, so not much of an arc, meaning the large front CT is likely to take more of the impact.
further out the missiles fly in a much more pronounced arc, so not only do they rain down on the target, meaning they hit the much smaller top hitboxes (meaning they are more likely to miss wide and maybe hit something else) but at 450m the missiles take about 3 seconds to reach the target. meaning the target has more time to twist to spread damage or to reach cover.

firing at a targets CT, while the Mech is looking straight at you meens the CT has this huge surface area, rotate 20^o and the target area effectively becomes 25% smaller, at 45^o it is effectively half the size.

(I was at the testing grounds, the mech do not move there)

I wish you could push a button and they would! That would be great.

I'd make it part of the Academy. You can set them to just move along a route, or you could set them for self-defense mode 1 through 10.

At setting 1 they would be a little slow and their weapons would only do 1/8th of the damage. This would go up to level 8. Then would start a level that I believe every game should have. Not just "easy, medium, hard and maybe very hard", I want at least one IMPOSSIBLE LEVEL.

There are way too many PC etc games that are not hard to beat and their top level. I guess mainly because humans are smarter (sometimes) and can and will do random acts. Also, it seems like game designers do not want to sell a game that is very very hard to win.

How many times have you lost to the I.A. of any game? Except for Chess, I really cannot think of a time.

Ahhh, so IMPOSSIBLE LEVEL. At level 9, the test mech is faster than normal and while it will not have the "moves' of a human, it's armor is 10% thicker/harder and it's weapon's will do 1 and 1/2 times as much damage. And they will start working together. As soon as you press Level 9 and start, they will come for you.

At level 10 I hope you brought enough ammo. The mechs are even faster/quicker, they will work better together, they will hunt you down, their armor goes up to 25% more and their damage will be double.

[Tesunie]

LikeUntoGod, on 13 March 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

I tested this yesterday in a testing ground. At 250 Meters it almost totally hit the CT of the Atlas.

As I backed up, the damage started to show on it's ST and arms. I do not know how much damage, but it was clear to see.

The spread itself should not be changing based on your distance. However, as Rogue Jedi stated, the missile arc does change as it goes up more as you go farther away from your target. This could be the difference between hitting front hit boxes or top hit boxes. As such, I can't say range has an affect on spread, but it may have an affect on where the missiles actually hit. It's also why I added in that distance doesn't affect LRMs, besides how your opponent can (or rather can't) react to them. Closer targets have less reaction time than farther ones.

This is why I've always believed and told people that LRMs are best up with their team, not hiding out back behind their team too far. (You should be behind teammates, but not by a large amount. 100-200m behind your teammates is plenty far enough. Or you can be like me and be the forward most mech with LRMs, pushing the charges... (which I will note sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. But most times, if I don't do so in a PUG match, than no one moves...))

What I believe your testing showed was probably that the Atlas has a more narrow top hit box (shoulders) than front hit box (chest). Though I don't wish to just dismiss your results. I'll give this a try myself to see if I can back up your results. What size launchers where you using? Clan or IS? What angle of attack? I'm going to presume straight on.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 13 March 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Check this for further informations:
https://mwomercs.com...ad-please-vote/

That was a great drawing!

And that page you linked is a keeper.

[G4LV4TR0N]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 13 March 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

Yes, Kon. I can read (why would you reply othewise).

Like Cato and Rouge been sayin', Mods will be removed 21st of march, GXP and C-bills will be refunded. So OP can either say *well, nvm* or buy and test it out him/herself. If someone asks about the usability of Mods which get removed in a week anyways, chances are he did not know about the removal.

AFAIK modules are just replaced by skills that will function in very similar matter. I'm not sure of it but from what I know, we should get LRM range, LBX/AC range and generic weapon range skills. Technically I could ask about weapon modules/quirks/skills which would set it up.

[Tesunie]

G4LV4TR0N, on 13 March 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

AFAIK modules are just replaced by skills that will function in very similar matter. I'm not sure of it but from what I know, we should get LRM range, LBX/AC range and generic weapon range skills. Technically I could ask about weapon modules/quirks/skills which would set it up.

In the last PTS run, all weapons was under the generalist "Weapon" skill tree. There, a skill typically just said "Range increase" and it increased all weapon ranges. Some weapons got specific skill slots, such as LBx Spread and laser duration as examples, but most of the skills were far more generalist to help mixed builds and try to focus less on boating a single weapon type.

Just an FYI.

As a side note, the skill tree system has been delayed again, which is why I also take LikeUntoGod's approach with providing information on what is currently in the game, rather than just information from potential soon to be release data. Though, I will give warnings and notes about the potential changes. (AKA: I do a bit of both.)

For the moment, the answer to the questions here is "Range Modules do not change weapon spread on weapons that have spread mechanics". With a side note of "When/if modules are removed with the new Skill Tree System, those affects will be transferred to skill nodes instead".

[G4LV4TR0N]

Back to LRM's... it basically means that their efficiency is dependent on mech hitbox localization, right? Some mechs with wide Front Torsos targeted head on might take much more damage than mechs with smaller Front Torsos.

What if we want to spread LRM damage more? Moving away // not using TAG/NARC // losing target sight(disabling Artemis) // etc could cause our LRM's to deal more damage to Side Torsos?

About hitboxes, take a look here:

https://mwomercs.com...x-localization/

The page does not show hitbox localization when we target mech from top. It also does not show Front / Rear Torso for Center Torso. When we talk things like Cicada it's quite obvious that Cicada will take much more damage from LRM's coming from above than Wolfhound, because it's really wide. Also Cicada will take most damage to CT while Wolfhound should take most damage to ST's, that's because of hitbox localization. But how much of this damage will go to Front and how much will go to Rear? It seems values are completely dependent on mechs we hit. Take a look at Kit Fox side profile, seems damage will be spread between Front and Rear Side Torsos while cousin Adder will take 95% damage to Front Side Torso.

What if we will damage enemy mech Front Side Torso, make him lose his armor there but then he will start to torso twist/turn back and start running away. Is there any way of finishing his cored Front Side Torso with LRM? It seems that it depends on our LRM spread/range and his mech hitbox localization but in certain cases it should be possible. And technically trying to do it at range without spread bonuses should help. Am I correct here?

One more thing, when you shot LRM's at close range you can affect arc/distance by pointing them upwards after target is acquired, right? You can also do side twist(arms/torso) and missile will be more likely to strike at certain angle? And this should affect how they hit enemy?

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 13 March 2017 - 11:57 PM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

G4LV4TR0N, on 13 March 2017 - 11:34 PM, said:

Back to LRM's... it basically means that their efficiency is dependent on mech hitbox localization, right? Some mechs with wide Front Torsos targeted head on might take much more damage than mechs with smaller Front Torsos.

What if we want to spread LRM damage more? Moving away // not using TAG/NARC // losing target sight(disabling Artemis) // etc could cause our LRM's to deal more damage to Side Torsos?

About hitboxes, take a look here:

https://mwomercs.com...x-localization/

The page does not show hitbox localization when we target mech from top. It also does not show Front / Rear Torso for Center Torso. When we talk things like Cicada it's quite obvious that Cicada will take much more damage from LRM's coming from above than Wolfhound, because it's really wide. Also Cicada will take most damage to CT while Wolfhound should take most damage to ST's, that's because of hitbox localization. But how much of this damage will go to Front and how much will go to Rear? It seems values are completely dependent on mechs we hit. Take a look at Kit Fox side profile, seems damage will be spread between Front and Rear Side Torsos while cousin Adder will take 95% damage to Front Side Torso.

What if we will damage enemy mech Front Side Torso, make him lose his armor there but then he will start to torso twist/turn back and start running away. Is there any way of finishing his cored Front Side Torso with LRM? It seems that it depends on our LRM spread/range and his mech hitbox localization but in certain cases it should be possible. And technically trying to do it at range without spread bonuses should help. Am I correct here?

One more thing, when you shot LRM's at close range you can affect arc/distance by pointing them upwards after target is acquired, right? You can also do side twist(arms/torso) and missile will be more likely to strike at certain angle? And this should affect how they hit enemy?

I can assure you, the last thing you want to do is spread LRM damage. You always want some sort of backup weapon so, in chance some random mech is standing before you with a specific open and vulnerable component, you can just hold your front loaded weaponry onto it.

Mech geometry is importent, folks will know how to utilize their hitboxes and spread damage.
Part of the reason LRM are regarded as inferiour weapons is precisely because their damage is sorta all over the place.
If you're in an LRM boat up versus someone with pinpoint damage and shieldarms.. well good luck if he knows how to tank damage. He will just turn shieldsided and alpha your face from time to time.
Part of the reason LRM boats usually hide behind their lines and relying on friendly locks.

As far as modifyng the LRM fring arc. yes there are ways to do so.
One would be to yank downwards right before firing (so your lock won't break but your mech is bowing over the moment you fire) that will lower the arc and allows to fire in places LRM don't usually work (HPG basement, Crimson under the plateau).

Likewise, you can yank the torso upwards to fire over an obstacle.

A more elegant way would be to lock your torso down or upwards and use free arm movement to aquire/hold your locks. (it also looks pretty funny)

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 14 March 2017 - 11:18 AM.

[Tesunie]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 14 March 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

I can assure you, the last thing you want to do is spread LRM damage.

There are times and situations where you actually do want the spread damage. Such a case could be when an IS mech with an XL has a bad side torso you can't hit because they are shielding it, a wide spread LRM barrage may hit that side torso and kill the mech. (I've done that many times myself.)

Though I wont disagree with less spread overall. Actually, I'd like spread to be adjusted so that LRM5s are not the "go to" LRM weapon. LRM20s (for example) should be worth taking, considering their higher weight costs...