32 replies to this topic

[Big Tin Man]

The first 40-60 unlocks should cost xp only, to mimic the old style of eliting. The remaining unlocks should represent purchasing modules and that's where they get their 9.1 million cbills sink, and where the whales and rich get their advantage for spending the cbills in the past. That is the way to make the economy of the 91 unlock system work for everyone.


Yes, the skill maze still has other issues, but overall it's a significant step forward, and it needs to happen. Please like, comment or bump to keep this in PGI's eyes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

That doesn't fix anything, considering you could mix and match modules whereas you can't with skill points. A BETTER fix would've been allowing us to buy skill points rather than focusing on node unlocks (with c-bill purchased skill points being usable across any mech).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 March 2017 - 08:46 AM.

[FupDup]

Having the first skills be free but the last ones cost a lot feels strangely arbitrary and specific, especially when the power of skill nodes doesn't even increase as you get deeper into a tree.

[Y E O N N E]

NO!

[El Bandito]

45K C-Bill per node for 91 nodes is completely fine with me. After all, the bonuses I get from those 91 nodes are significant--it is even better deal than merely buying a single 6 million C-Bill module.

[Coolant]

skill tree is dead, probably won't see any progress till the end of the year at best...have to say I'm very disappointed. We could've had the skill tree as something to look forward to this month, now we have nothing. The Skill Tree couldve gone thru fixes and updates till it looked more like what players wanted.

Edited by Coolant, 14 March 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[Erikwa Kell]

OMGZ GUYZ I FOUND THE ULTIMATE FIX!!!!

REMOVE EVERYTHING! QUIRKS, FW, UNITS, EVERYTHING!
AND HAVE THE ONLY MECH BE STOCK UBRAN MECHS!.
AND ONLY ONE MAP!
ALWAYS 1-1, SO EVERYONE CAN BE DA SAME!!!!!
NO DIFFERENCES EVA!!!!
AND WIN OR LOSE YOU ALL GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY AND XP!


that's the kind of world some of these idiots would like us to live in if given the option.
so people, please STFU and let Russ fix the game the way he wants.

[Big Tin Man]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 March 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

That doesn't fix anything, considering you could mix and match modules whereas you can't with skill points. A BETTER fix would've been allowing us to buy skill points rather than focusing on node unlocks (with c-bill purchased skill points being usable across any mech).

I own 167 mechs, most are elited, probably 150-160 of them, but only have modules to fully kit out 40-50 of them. With a full refund of the modules I can only afford to skill tree ~90-100 of them until I run out of cbills at 100k/node, while I still have thousands of points of mech XP on the remaining mechs.

FupDup, on 14 March 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Having the first skills be free but the last ones cost a lot feels strangely arbitrary and specific, especially when the power of skill nodes doesn't even increase as you get deeper into a tree.

Yes, it is arbitrary and specific. No it is not perfect, but it allows space poor players to use their XP to make their mech somewhat better before hitting the old 'endgame content' cbill sink of modules. There is a lot about the skill tree that isn't perfect. I have also argued for a tiered tree that costs increase as you buy mode skill points starting after the XP only points. The details of how PGI gets an equivalent cbill sink are irrelevant as long as you can achieve the same level of performance without module using XP only.

Yeonne Greene, on 14 March 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

NO!

YES!!!

El Bandito, on 14 March 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

45K C-Bill per node for 91 nodes is completely fine with me. After all, the bonuses I get from those 91 nodes are significant--it is even better deal than merely buying a single 6 million C-Bill module.

At 45k per node, it costs 4.1M cbills to skill tree up a mech. I'm getting ~600,000,000 cbills back. With that 600M, I could skill up 146 of my 167 mechs. I'll be fine, but that is only because I bought a lot of modules. If I hadn't purchased any modules, I'm completely hosed, and there are a lot of people out there just like that. I have 167 mechs with tens of thousands of mech XP sitting on them and NO cbills to unlock anything. It's called getting shafted.

[Hotthedd]

Why not have a PILOT skill tree that can unlock the function of modules, but the pilot skill tree stays with the pilot regardless of which 'mech is being run? Heck, you could even make it take GXP and C-bills only (like now).

The rest of the skill tree could stay variant specific.

That part would end up staying relatively the same (but no more hunting modules!)

[R Valentine]

Doesn't change anything. You can swap modules between mechs. Can you swap skills? Oh no? Then you haven't changed a thing.

[oldradagast]

You want to fix it?

Divide it all out into Roles with, say, 20 skills per role, with no gated skills and all of them being useful - get away from the overly specific trash. You can pick 1 role and 12 of the 20 skills in that role per mech, but you can eventually grind out all of them if you want. No respec cost, either. Or, if you HAVE to have one, it would only be for changing roles, but it would have to be small and I'd prefer none. Oh, and then display the role each of your allies has next to their name when you press "tab" in game.

There - done. Real choices, some level of role warfare, simpler system, and more info in-game that can help you coordinate your team. Too simple, so it'll never happen.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 March 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

I own 167 mechs, most are elited, probably 150-160 of them, but only have modules to fully kit out 40-50 of them. With a full refund of the modules I can only afford to skill tree ~90-100 of them until I run out of cbills at 100k/node, while I still have thousands of points of mech XP on the remaining mechs.

And I have double that number of mechs (with about 95% mastered) with about the same number with modules maybe even less. I rely on module swapping a lot more so I do not see this as equivalent since you can't pass around those nodes that you used c-bills to unlock.

[El Bandito]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

At 45k per node, it costs 4.1M cbills to skill tree up a mech. I'm getting ~600,000,000 cbills back. With that 600M, I could skill up 146 of my 167 mechs. I'll be fine, but that is only because I bought a lot of modules. If I hadn't purchased any modules, I'm completely hosed, and there are a lot of people out there just like that. I have 167 mechs with tens of thousands of mech XP sitting on them and NO cbills to unlock anything. It's called getting shafted.

That's wrong way to look at it. That 4.1 million C-Bills per mech already include vital functions such as Raderp, AND Seismic--each costs 6 million C-Bills currently. You are getting both those PLUS all the other sweet offense, defense, and sensor related bonuses which you didn't have, for mere 4.1 million C-Bills! Now that's a DEAL I would make any time, on all the mechs I have. I was sick of swapping around 140 million C-Bill modules every time my unit switches faction anyway.

And I bet the amount of people who actually bother to play all 167 mechs evenly are fewer than the number of fingers I have on my left hand. Thus I roll my eyes at those who are crying out "Muh 200 mechs!".

Edited by El Bandito, 14 March 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[1453 R]

This...really doesn't change or solve anything. The economy of it is honestly the least critical fix required for the Skill Tree. Nobody actually pilots all the 150+ 'Mechs they have skilled out anymore, and if they do then it shouldn't take much for them to reskill the designs.

I really wish people would stop yammering about the economy of the skilltree and obscuring the real issues that need fixing. Or, well, needed fixing. Sort of a moot point since the Skilltree is dead now. Blegh...

[Big Tin Man]

Kiran Yagami, on 14 March 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

Doesn't change anything. You can swap modules between mechs. Can you swap skills? Oh no? Then you haven't changed a thing.

Changes a ton. Like in my own example where I would not be able to unlock any skills for ~60 of my mechs at 100k/node, and now I can unlock up to two thirds of the skills just using XP. HUGE DIFFERENCE. That makes all of my mechs playable. Not perfect, but playable.

Again, it's not perfect, it's a compromise.

[Wildstreak]

I'm just gonna post in large caps thinking my post will somehow rise to the top!!!!!!
Is this big enough?????

[Clanner Scum]

[Amsro]

Wildstreak, on 14 March 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

I'm just gonna post in large caps thinking my post will somehow rise to the top!!!!!!
Is this big enough?????

[Big Tin Man]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 March 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

And I have double that number of mechs (with about 95% mastered) with about the same number with modules maybe even less. I rely on module swapping a lot more so I do not see this as equivalent since you can't pass around those nodes that you used c-bills to unlock.

No, it is not equivalent. Never said it was. You're just getting 2/3'rds less screwed. WHICH IS A LOT.

El Bandito, on 14 March 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

And I bet the amount of people who actually bother to play all 167 mechs evenly are fewer than the number of fingers I have on my left hand. Thus I roll my eyes at those who are crying out "Muh 200 mechs!".

Fine, I'm a bad example, and I said I'd be fine under the last iteration with less expensive unlocks. Let's look at a new player that hasn't yet spent one real world cent on MWO but has played a fair amount. They have 4 mechs in 4 mechbays, maybe a few more because they tried FW. All 4 of their mechs are mastered, but they haven't saved enough cbills for modules yet because they need to buy engines, endo/ferro/dhs, 3 chassies (and lost 50% of their cbills on resale), etc. Under the new system, they receive a 0 cbill refund and can unlock exactly 0 skill points while losing all of their bonuses from the old pilot tree. The whales just bought all of their skills back while the new players are now staring at a new cbill sink to scratch their way back up Mt. Tryhard. That would absolutely crush every single new player to MWO to be forced into such a disadvantage for so long and borders on PTW.

With the first 40-60 unlocks being XP only, they can return to their old level of mech ability, while leaving the cbill sink for the whales.

1453 R, on 14 March 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

This...really doesn't change or solve anything. The economy of it is honestly the least critical fix required for the Skill Tree. Nobody actually pilots all the 150+ 'Mechs they have skilled out anymore, and if they do then it shouldn't take much for them to reskill the designs.

I really wish people would stop yammering about the economy of the skilltree and obscuring the real issues that need fixing. Or, well, needed fixing. Sort of a moot point since the Skilltree is dead now. Blegh...

The economy as it was was developed for whales, not new players. Without new players this game dies. This is THE real gamebreaking issue, not the lack of hard choices or depth or things being interesting, but disenfranchising new players and making the game not accessible to a beginner. I do agree that the tree could be a lot better, but it was mostly functional and better than the old tree with unlocks that did absolutely nothing. The economy would absolutely ruin the game for new players and the space poor.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Big Tin Man, on 14 March 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

No, it is not equivalent. Never said it was. You're just getting 2/3'rds less screwed. WHICH IS A LOT.

And here you have the problem, IM NOT WILLING TO COMPROMISE ON THIS.

I want to be 3/3rds less screwed, anything less is unacceptable, and thus why they are going back and looking into this.