236 replies to this topic

[Unnatural Growth]

Look man, most of us actually WANT a new skill tree. We're not opposed to change. You're only interested in attacking those that think differently than you, and more concerned with destroying us than listening to what the f**k we're saying.

****A new song and dance come out. It's the Chicken Dance. It's terrible. We say so. You start wailing and crying that we hate all music and dance. "Those guys are just salty bittervets that hate everything new, because they don't want to learn any new dance steps." And we're sitting here trying to explain that the music and dance are moronic, terrible and an affront to anything resembling music or dancing.

Also, cleverly drowned out in all the din, is most of the Inner Sphere mechs got totally gimped with this change. Have you SEEN the numbers? Bothered to look at them? Why don't you try reading, analyzing some data here. First, look at the amount of buffs certain IS mechs had to have in game (and I mean these are CURRENT buffs-aka "quirks"), just to be brought all the way up to MARGINALLY BAD status. Locust? Commando? Jenner? Cicada? Urbanmech? (URBIE???), Vindicator?, Phoenix Hawk?, Centurion?, Hunchback?, Kintaro?, Rifleman?, Dragon?, Quickdraw?, Cataphract? (CATAPHRACTS???), Orion?, Awesome?, Victor? (VICTOR???), Highlander (WTF??!!), Atlas?

All these Inner Sphere mechs have taken one to the knee (and the other one right to the jimmies). When's the last time you saw a thread war start over how over powered a JENNER is? Or a Cicada? HIGHLANDERS? Yeah, they're wiping the floors in both QP and FW, all the poor little underpowered Kodiaks are running away in FEAR when the Highlanders show up.

These mechs are already under performing. That's WITH their current quirks. So baseline + quirks = Now. Follow this so far?

Now PGI is taking those quirks away, and expecting us IS pilots to make up for it with the new skill tree. So baseline + new skill tree = new mech abilities. Fine. Cool, right? Oh, oops, there's only one problem. WE GET THE SAME TREE that the over performing mechs get. Same tree, same values. So the over performing mechs will still start out with their over performing base stats AND they will be able to boost their stats from there. The UNDER performing mechs will *maybe* be able to boost their baseline stats to somewhere almost as good as they were BEFORE THEIR GODDAMN QUIRKS WERE TAKEN AWAY.

PGI won't touch this little, tiny "problem" in their comments about feedback from the New Skill Tree.

"Oh, they'll fix it down the road."

Yeah, right, in what 6 months? A year? 5 years? I know, I know, it's just a "placeholder".

And the UI for the new tree is just pants. What a convoluted, Rubik's Cube Meets Sudoku Online user interface.

Yeah, you're right, we're all just complaining about the Chicken Dance because we hate new music.

[PyckenZot]

oldradagast, on 14 March 2017 - 03:39 AM, said:

I play, and I still spend money (for now - we'll see about the future), so you're wrong on that point.

As for the rest, you have no evidence the screaming white knights still play or spend money anymore, either, so don't play that game with me. You've got nothing to back it up, and you damn well that PGI wouldn't have delayed or cancelled the skill maze failure unless it was hitting them in the wallet. They don't listen to anything else.

This reply is actually a perfect example of why discussions on (these) forums go nowhere,...
When did I state you didn't play?
When did I state that I believe only bittervets don't play anymore?
I damn well have no idea why PGI's delays the skill tree. Only they do.

I stated I did not agree with these forums being an accurate depiction of the "player base" and you retort with another pre-mashed rant.

That doesn't help in getting points across,...

Chill down and have a cold one, then reply.

[Bud Crue]

PyckenZot, on 14 March 2017 - 04:36 AM, said:

I damn well have no idea why PGI's delays the skill tree. Only they do.

I do! I do!

Cuz Russ said on twitter that they found holes and now have a path forward to completely fill those holes.
There ya go.

[oldradagast]

PyckenZot, on 14 March 2017 - 04:36 AM, said:

I stated I did not agree with these forums being an accurate depiction of the "player base" and you retort with another pre-mashed rant.

Oh, come on now - we all know PGI would not have had a sudden change of heart unless something about the player backlash had gotten to them. We know they don't read the forums - or, if they do, they certainly don't act like it - so it's unlikely the forum anger itself was the issue. It's far more likely they started getting requests for refunds for preorders and mech-packs from people. That - and only something like that - is the type of thing that will motivate PGI to action.

One can debate without data if the anger on the forums represents the majority or not. I find it highly unlikely there's some "silent majority who love the new skill system" given the lack of evidence. There probably is a majority who knows nothing about it, true, but that neither supports or condemns it. In the end, though, the backlash against it was enough to motivate PGI to act, which is confirmation enough that the skill system as proposed was generally disliked by the parts of the community that matter - paying customers.

[Novakaine]

It's a damn shame I enjoy the forums more nowadays than the game.

[R Valentine]

There's no salt like white knight salt.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

[Lily from animove]

skill tree isn't too bad generally, but a few ways of how PGI deisgned it were simply not good. So it's not too bad PGI delays it, I just hope they take peoples concerns seriously and iron those out properly.

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

No seriously, congrats guys, you did it, you've forced yet another attempt by the company that owns the game, to cowtail to you.

Out of all the things PGI has done over the years...I'd actually hoped this would go through. After Coolantgate, 3pv, the Island... all of that... I saw hope, I was honestly looking forward to this system. Not just for changes sake, but it honestly looked interesting to me, it looked new, and fresh.

I understand the balance concerns many of you had, I get it... but there's always going to be an inherent imbalance to the game as long as Clan's weapons differ from IS, and have different damage values and the like. It's just how the game's going to work, because Clans are INHERENTLY imbalanced to IS, because that's what happened in the core Battletech game. The balancing factor of Clan vs IS were unit sizes, and clan dogma [which is NEVER represented here]

So congrats, on destroying one of the few features that I was looking forward to. The Refund was going to help me set up specifically the mechs I wanted to work on anyway, the skill tree was FINALLY going to get rid of the 3 mechs to master rule... and by god we were going to get rid of the pointless convergence node in the current tree!

And to PGI, I'm sorry you have such a ****** base of players that question your every single attempt to do something... I know you're not perfect, and I've had enough beef with you over the years [to the point that Russ blocked me on twitter for even warning him of an uprising some 4 years ago.. would still love to be unblocked by the way, I can't see any of his posts.].

So congrats guys, you stalled out what would have honestly, been a saving grace to this game. Good job.

+1

[R Valentine]

Wow, I rekt the skill tree? Me? All by my forum posts? Man, I'm awesome. I feel like John Cena! Someone make the video of him destroying the skill tree immediately.

"AND HIS NAME IS JOHN CENA!"

Ba dadadaaaaaaaaaaaa! Ba dadadaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Cato Phoenix]

Watched your video.

1. You said ultimately it's PGI's decision

2. You then said it was everyone's decision to vote with their wallet, as well as to argue against it if they saw fit.

3. And people pro-tree have opinions as well they can argue.

...So PGI made the decision. That decision was to delay the PTS. I imagine the weight of the opposition, in addition to the refund requests, made them decide that way.

You're right, it's their decision. Presumably they made it given the information they had. You're extolling people who weren't happy with the skill tree to recognize that it is ultimately PGI's decision, but you aren't doing the same.

From what my impression is of the objective data (forum discussions) is that many people were against the tree mechanics and much more people were against the cost. We don't know if that's a statistically unbiased sample of the player population. It would be nearly impossible to catalogue the group by who plays, who doesn't, their tiers, their spending status, etc. We don't know if a vocal minority against the tree, and there's a ton of people who loved the skill tree out there silent. (I don't think so, given comparisons of numbers of relieved posts to upset ones post status update).

But it's the best information that PGI has.

If PGI's decision caters to that demographic, then ultimately it was their decision to do so. You can say they caved, or you can say they listened to feedback - regardless of the spin, PGI has to decide how much to cater to player opinions, and how much to push ahead with. But decisions have consequences - and ultimately they fail if they lose the paying playerbase.

PGI apparently thinks there is a greater likelihood of that by pushing forwards rather than doing further testing. (Personally, I agree.) They might be wrong, I might be wrong, you might be right. We don't know.

I hope that their decision maximizes player retention. I hope both you and I are happy with the tree when it comes out. We'll see.

[Y E O N N E]

These skill tree threads suck. All of them. Can we go back to Clans vs. IS, please?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Here's the problem Cato, every time it's a delay, it's not a delay, it's just a scrapping of the system.

Every single time they've devoted resources to something, IE Energy Draw, Info War, ect. they run the PTS, there's a backlash from a vocal group, then the change get's pulled.


EVERY TIME.

That's what I'm most concerned about, instead of PGI going forward with the decision, which they had planned for the 21st, they caved to preasure yet again, and now I'm almost entirely positive, that like those prior two systems, Skill Tree will just be axed.

Because that's, what history has taught us.

[R Valentine]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here's the problem Cato, every time it's a delay, it's not a delay, it's just a scrapping of the system.

Every single time they've devoted resources to something, IE Energy Draw, Info War, ect. they run the PTS, there's a backlash from a vocal group, then the change get's pulled.


EVERY TIME.

That's what I'm most concerned about, instead of PGI going forward with the decision, which they had planned for the 21st, they caved to preasure yet again, and now I'm almost entirely positive, that like those prior two systems, Skill Tree will just be axed.

Because that's, what history has taught us.

And yet still, it's PGI that pulls the project, not the people who vent on the forums. PGI scrapped ED. PGI scrapped info war. PGI scrapped missile review. You keep blaming the community for PGI's failures. PGI does not have to listen to the backlash. They CHOOSE to. Also, PGI doesn't have to roll out crap that CAUSES a backlash. They choose to do that too. In the end, everything traces back to PGI. They lay the ground work. We just dance on it.

[Bud Crue]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here's the problem Cato, every time it's a delay, it's not a delay, it's just a scrapping of the system.

Every single time they've devoted resources to something, IE Energy Draw, Info War, ect. they run the PTS, there's a backlash from a vocal group, then the change get's pulled.


EVERY TIME.

That's what I'm most concerned about, instead of PGI going forward with the decision, which they had planned for the 21st, they caved to preasure yet again, and now I'm almost entirely positive, that like those prior two systems, Skill Tree will just be axed.

Because that's, what history has taught us.

If you accept this, then consider the nerf pass. Think about the history you are citing and think about the nerf pass and PGI's assurance that they would be studying to establish a new baseline and then addressing under performers in the future. Looking at the history as precedent, what are the chances that they would do that? And when? They gutted more than half the mechs in the game...the crappiest mechs in the game mind you...when do you think they would have "addressed" them using history as a guide?

[1Grimbane]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

No seriously, congrats guys, you did it, you've forced yet another attempt by the company that owns the game, to cowtail to you.

Out of all the things PGI has done over the years...I'd actually hoped this would go through. After Coolantgate, 3pv, the Island... all of that... I saw hope, I was honestly looking forward to this system. Not just for changes sake, but it honestly looked interesting to me, it looked new, and fresh.

I understand the balance concerns many of you had, I get it... but there's always going to be an inherent imbalance to the game as long as Clan's weapons differ from IS, and have different damage values and the like. It's just how the game's going to work, because Clans are INHERENTLY imbalanced to IS, because that's what happened in the core Battletech game. The balancing factor of Clan vs IS were unit sizes, and clan dogma [which is NEVER represented here]

So congrats, on destroying one of the few features that I was looking forward to. The Refund was going to help me set up specifically the mechs I wanted to work on anyway, the skill tree was FINALLY going to get rid of the 3 mechs to master rule... and by god we were going to get rid of the pointless convergence node in the current tree!

And to PGI, I'm sorry you have such a ****** base of players that question your every single attempt to do something... I know you're not perfect, and I've had enough beef with you over the years [to the point that Russ blocked me on twitter for even warning him of an uprising some 4 years ago.. would still love to be unblocked by the way, I can't see any of his posts.].

So congrats guys, you stalled out what would have honestly, been a saving grace to this game. Good job.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHA I AM SOOO GLAD THE STUPID SKILL TREE WAS SCRAPPED

[KodiakGW]

Deathlike, on 14 March 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

When we leave it to PGI, it becomes a feature.. a feature that doesn't get corrected in months... years.. or ever.

This..soooooooo much this.

I mean, how many YEARS has Pinpoint been a useless waste of XP? How long have Modules been out, and never a Clan AC Cooldown or Range module. Those are copy/paste changes.

And there are those that still think it's a good idea for these guys to implement a major change...because they will "fix it as necessary."

[KingCobra]

Personally I wanted no skill tree at all I would rather they doubled the armor but if they put a new one in let it be fixed right and compensate for the amount of time I had to skill up the old skill tree for each mech and no costs C-bills or MC involved to respect my 53 mechs to the level there at now.

[Dodger79]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here's the problem Cato, every time it's a delay, it's not a delay, it's just a scrapping of the system.

Every single time they've devoted resources to something, IE Energy Draw, Info War, ect. they run the PTS, there's a backlash from a vocal group, then the change get's pulled.


EVERY TIME.

That's what I'm most concerned about, instead of PGI going forward with the decision, which they had planned for the 21st, they caved to preasure yet again, and now I'm almost entirely positive, that like those prior two systems, Skill Tree will just be axed.

Because that's, what history has taught us.

But isn't that more a sign of PGI not knowing how to create working and wider accepted solutions for their own game then anything else? If they cannot provide sth that would actually work why should we embrace it as "well, atleast it's something even if it is bs"? Their project management (or, more precisely, the lack of) is only their fault, not the communities.

[Acehilator]

People are still trying to whiteknight? Really? Wow.

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here's the problem Cato, every time it's a delay, it's not a delay, it's just a scrapping of the system.

Every single time they've devoted resources to something, IE Energy Draw, Info War, ect. they run the PTS, there's a backlash from a vocal group, then the change get's pulled.


EVERY TIME.

That's what I'm most concerned about, instead of PGI going forward with the decision, which they had planned for the 21st, they caved to preasure yet again, and now I'm almost entirely positive, that like those prior two systems, Skill Tree will just be axed.

Because that's, what history has taught us.

Maybe (just maybe), if PGI would present new systems that don't appear to be made by an intern in 5 minutes while taking a dump, the reaction would be different?