9 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

So this is a call-out about the upcoming quirk adjustments, just so that I can say I told you so and rage quit later.

I'd wish for two things here:

• Please, wait with the quirk nerfs until you are simultaneously adjusting the base techs. There is absolutely nothing to gain by making balance worse while we wait for it. Engine decoupling does not justify this, nor does the crit system alone.
  
• Go over the quirk adjustments again. They are inconsistent and there are many casualties. The result is bland. Variety is hurt, fun niche builds are gone.

While going over the quirks I found the following:


The big winners: mechs that don't lose any (important) quirks (often because they didn't have any, because they were so good in the first place that they didn't need any). These either have the ability to swap engine to an optimal rating, or they are equipped with a locked engine that is near enough to the optimal value for their weight (or a small one so that the engine desync is near an agility buff).

ACH
JR7-IIc
HBK-IIc
HBR
EBJ
NGR (hard to see the agility values in that pdf, but doesn’t look far from TBR)
MAD-IIc
HMN
SNV
HGN-IIc
DWF

Oops. All clan mechs, including the best mechs in the game.

We also have other winners in the lottery, mechs that weren't necessarily top performers but also didn't lose anything too significant.

WLF-2 (keeps armor and heat gen)
COM-TDK (not nerfed)
JR7-O (5% heat gen is rather ok, it doesn’t run that hot)
FS9-E (doesn’t lose heat gen like other FS9s)
CN9-YLW (only loses velocity)
GRF-2N (only loses velocity)
DRG-Flame (loses velocity and duration, can build around that)
CPLT-A1 (only loses velocity)
JM6-DD/S (loses only laser quirks)
TDR-T (was rekt be huge range nerf previously but didn’t lose anything this time)
GHR-5P (loses range and duration, but I run LPLs on mine)
WHM-BW (only velocity nerfs, not too bad)
CTF-IM (range and velocity, could have been worse)
BL-6/6B/7-KNT (gets to keep heat gen)
BLR-2C (only loses range)
STK-M/3FB (mostly untouched)
CP-10-Q/Sleipnir (mostly untouched)
MAL-1R (only missile nerfs)
KDK-3 (reduced agility, but can equip smaller engine and bring moar guns)

Now to the big losers. These mechs all lose significant quirks to their common builds. I have not bothered about moderately nerfed mechs in between the lucky ones above and this list.

RVN-4X/2X (huge nerfs to duration)
FS9-S/A (no agility bonuses AND loss of heat gen)
COM-3A (15% missile cooldown nerf!)
LCT-1V/3M/1E/1M/PB (various important nerfs, heatgen, range, cooldown)
CDA-2A/3F (huge nerf to ML duration
BJ-3/1X/1DC/A (loses 5-20% heat gen)
VND-1AA/1R (loses heat gen and ppc velocity)
CN9-AL/D (AL loses 10% heat gen and D loses 15% shotgun cooldown)
CRB-27B (loses heatgen)
ENF-4R (heat gen and duration)
HBK-4H/4P/4J/GI (cooldown, heatgen, range, duration in various amounts)
TBT-5J/5N/7K (large nerfs to heatgen)
GRF-E/M (sparky loses heat gen and duration, 3M loses 10% dps)
SHD-2H/2K/GD (2H loses 10% dps, 2k/gd loses heatgen and cooldown)
WVR-6R/6K/Q (6k loses duration, 6r loses dps, q multiple nerfs lol)
DRG-1N/5N/Fang (1N/5N/fang loses dps)
QKD-5K/IV4 (5K loses 10% heat gen, IV4 loses 10% dps, other qkd loses 5% heat gen)
CPLT-J/K2 (jester loses heat gen and duration, poor k2 loses range, vel, duration)
JM6-A/FB (A loses characteristic velocity, FB loses duration and ppc vel)
CTF-1X (heat gen and duration)
GHR-5H/5N (heat gen nerfs on hot mechs)
WHM-6R/6D/7S (poor whammys get hit again, heat gen on 6D/7S, CD on 6R)
BL-7-KNT-L (heat gen on hot mech)
MAD-3R/5D/BH2 (heat gen, ppc velocity, range in varying amounts)
AWS-8R/9M (10% dps nerf on 8R, heat gen and velocity on 9M)
ZEU-9S (cooldown and heat gen)
BLR-1G/1GHE/3M/1S (big nerfs to heat gen, 1G very close to rekt)
STK-3H/4N (big nerfs to heat gen and range for the 4N)
MAL-1P/2P/MX90 (10% heat gen, 15% duration on 2P… multiple nerfs to mx90)
BNC-3E/3M/LM (heat gen nerfs)
AS7-BH/RS/S (heat gen nerfs)
KGC-000B/0000/000 (lost dps)
ADR (lost heat gen)
IFR (lost heat gen)
SHC (lost heat gen)
SMN (lost speed, heat gen)
TBR (reduced agility)
WHK (reduced agility)
KDK-1/5 (reduced agility, lost quirks)

This list includes most of the top performing IS mechs, and a few unlucky clan mechs. I browsed rather quickly over the clan pdf and it was bloody hard to read because the text was tiny and didn't have the resolution to scale when I zoomed in.

Finally, a few mechs were totally rekt:
CDA-2B/3C/X-5 (totally rekt just, loses multiple defining niche quirks per variant)
HBK-4SP (15% heat gen, 20% dps, 10% spread…. Oh dear)
TDR-5S/5SS/9S/9SE (multiple huge nerfs to important attributes. RIP)
AWS-8Q/8T (huge nerfs to niche quirks)
KDK-2/4/SB (reduced agility, lost lots of durability quirks)

Now, if we apply some tin foil here I'll just make one observation.

* CDA's are rekt. Assassins are on sale.

I am sure the list is not perfect, but good enough to make a point?

Cheers!

Edited by Duke Nedo, 13 March 2017 - 09:52 AM.

[Skanderborg]

Shame to see the awesome get some hits , even though its not the best its my favorite. One can only hope that this gets fixed over time to help the underdogs again. The chance of getting a complete quirk pass in one patch is very small.

Edited by Skanderborg, 13 March 2017 - 09:35 AM.

[Clanner Scum]

My poor summoner....

[MrJeffers]

Thanks for pulling all that together.

[Acehilator]

It was clear from the first PTS and the first Quirk List. And still people will defend this BS as a step in the right direction and/or insignificant. "New weapons are coming" they say, "PGI will re-balance the mechs", "it's all going to be fine" ... and that from forum regulars. What kind of alternate reality are these people living in? So mechs get nerfed in March because of weapons that are coming in September, and everybody has to go along with that or be branded a whiner?

Mindboggling.

ALL red entries on the IS list apart from AC/PPC velocity,laser duration and mobility quirks need to be rolled back PERIOD.
(Well truthfully, instead of a sea of red it needs to be a sea of green buffs, but I would not want to ask too much of the "balance" department.) When solo QP consists of 80%+ IS mechs, group queue of 80% IS mechs, and 80% of all merc units went IS in FW, THAN we can talk about IS nerfs. And not a second sooner.

[Duke Nedo]

Skanderborg, on 13 March 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

Shame to see the awesome get some hits , even though its not the best its my favorite. One can only hope that this gets fixed over time to help the underdogs again. The chance of getting a complete quirk pass in one patch is very small.

Aye, we probably won't get a full quirk pass, but to just scrap all quirk changes and do nothing would have been a much better starting point to evaluate the impact of the skill tree from. You could just do it real simple and migrate agility into base stats as planned, and then add a global -10% ppc velocity to all mechs (including mechs that don't have quirked ppc speed) to compensate for that skill. Remember that the velocity skill was much more potent when these nerfs were designed the first time...

[Duke Nedo]

There is hope still, one more month of viable Cicadas at the very least.

[Magnus Santini]

Duke Nedo, that was a tremendous amount of work to make such a specific list. Sure does hurt to read how some of my favorites are on PGI's naughty list. And it is being ignored by people concerned about trivia. I literally could not care less if skills are from a tree or a bush with downward roots. After a month of discussion and testing why not throw out the nerfs and put the tree in? Then if the clanners are running for the skies they can rebalance that later. But I doubt it would be necessary. Also, why would they need to nerf the IS -before- giving it a new weapon?

[Duke Nedo]

Magnus Santini, on 14 March 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

Duke Nedo, that was a tremendous amount of work to make such a specific list. Sure does hurt to read how some of my favorites are on PGI's naughty list. And it is being ignored by people concerned about trivia. I literally could not care less if skills are from a tree or a bush with downward roots. After a month of discussion and testing why not throw out the nerfs and put the tree in? Then if the clanners are running for the skies they can rebalance that later. But I doubt it would be necessary. Also, why would they need to nerf the IS -before- giving it a new weapon?

Thanks, did it on work while being paid so no big deal.

PGI wants to reduce the offense quirks on IS mechs to adjust the base line before launching new tech, which is perfectly fine. What is not fine is doing it without properly compensating faction balance by doing correspondingly powerful nerfs to the other side. In fact, they should nerf clans slightly more than IS mechs because they are currently clearly ahead in the arms race.

What buggers me the most is some quotes where it is implied that this is done to make room for new tech. That is completely backwards. If that is the case, then it implies that all current weapons will become obsoleted by the new tech and that would be a really bad idea. It all needs to be properly balanced so that all equipment you can buy is useful in the right circumstances. That has nothing to do with tech baseline.... tech balance has been cried for since clans were launched, so its nice if it finally happens, but it needs to be a simultaneous process.

You simply don't nerf the bad side in the name of balance.

Oh, and don't destroy my Cicadas. I vow to never buy assassins for real cash if you do.

[MechaBattler]

They reduced overall cooldown and heat efficiency in the skill tree and introduce velocity, duration, and so on. So there's some justification for some reduction in quirks.

But, how do you justify 15% reduction in cooldown? Because eventually we'll get RACs? Is that it? Unless that's coming very very soon. Not the 3 month typical PGI cycle. I don't see a reason to hit these mechs so hard. Most of them need those quirks.

I mean the Awesome 8Q has a very niche build. I suppose you could replace the PPCs with snub ppcs. Thereby eliminating it's greatest weakness, no damage under 90m. But you're paying for it in range. There's a valid trade off there. And it's not like the Awesome is going to get something switching to an LFE. It has all the tonnage it needs to fill up every space with dubs and that's with it's engine maxed. I doubt you're gonna be able to run too many heavy ppcs on it. And PPC Capacitors would take up slots for heatsinks. So I'm wondering what the rational is.