77 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

With the Skill Tree relegated to the same “sometime in the future, maybe” bucket list as the long-forgotten, long-dead Information Warfare and the spectre of Energy Draw, this makes three major game update initiatives which have ended up spiked due to rampant player hysteria despite early optimism for all three initiatives.

Piranha as a game company can’t afford to keep sinking intensive development resources into bugbears that never go live, and we as MWO players can’t keep complaining about the same stale boring gameplay if we continually strangle every single change Piranha tries to make in the crib. With the FutureTech announcement coming in later today, I find myself worried that this will end up yet another game update that goes nowhere because people unilaterally reject it. Whether they do so for the right reasons or the wrong reasons, the rejections still hurt the game, and what hurts the game hurts us.

To the MWO Players: we have to adapt sometime. Piranha’s going to change the game, and those changes will involve some growing pains. Sometimes things will get better, sometimes certain things will get worse.

Please approach new testing initiatives with the mentality of “How can we make this great?” rather than “How is this going to ruin MWO and what do I have to do to kill it?” I’ve been victim to the hysteria myself at times, and I’m resolving to try and do better in the future. The best times to be on MWO are the early days of a new PTS initiative, where optimism is at its highest and players much smarter than me are putting up excellent breakdowns of the new systems with their pros and cons, praising the former and suggesting possible solution avenues for the latter. This is where we should be throughout the whole process, rather than making “The Witch is Dead!” threads and celebrating the spiking of many hundreds of hours of development effort we no longer get to benefit from. Sunk initiatives are a failure on everybody’s part, not just Piranha’s.

Please…get on the PTS. Even if it’s not for very long, even if you can’t find more than a few sporadic matches. People get those butt-clenchingly long match times because nobody is on the PTS, and not everybody has a full scrimmage team on their friends list every night to test with. If you can’t get on the PTS, then keep up on information in the PTS subforum, share your opinions and ideas, watch videos or read write-ups other players put together, and get your words in there. You can’t complain about Piranha never listening to you if they open up the doors to players, give us all a chance to get in and lend a voice, and you choose to do nothing with that chance.

To Piranha: Please, please please please, start testing one thing at a time on the PTS. The laser range bugbear killed Information Warfare, which some players wanted even more dearly than people profess to want Community Warfare. The Engine Redux poisoned the Skilltree PTS and confused a lot of issues, on top of introducing a host of build-breaking bugs that soured folks’ opinions on the largely unrelated Skilltree system.

Please respect players’ time and investment, both on and off the PTS. PLEASE stop running live events during PTS test sessions and deliberately sabotaging PTS testing efforts, and please stop wondering why you get low PTS engagement when time on the PTS offers nothing to the player. We’re your players, not the unpaid QA interns, and your latest Skilltree post talked a lot about progression. Let’s continue the trend and start rewarding players for helping you with development. I’ve attempted to engage with the PTS myself, but excessively long match times make any sort of testing difficult for me to do, and that compounds with everyone else who experiences the same until nobody is on the PTS except the private scrim teams. PTS sessions should be their own events, with their own rewards for number of matches played, or whatever other incentive structure you need to put into place to get butts into cockpits so players can properly try and test the PTS build without need a full private match scrimmage team.

And finally, please don’t abandon ideas you know the community wants to see because the first implementation didn’t go over well. We still want IW. Some of us even still want some variation of Energy Draw, or at least some of the interesting variant ideas that came from Energy Draw. We want MWO to become a better game. How can we help you make it one?

…anyways. G’head and start slinging insults now, guys. I know how these threads go, but I just couldn’t keep quiet when I saw people actually, literally celebrating the death of the Skilltree. The death of the Skilltree is in no way a good thing. We all need to do better here, guys. Piranha, and also us.

[R Valentine]

Why are you under the impression we control anything but the words we type on the keyboard? PGI has always been the ultimate decision maker. Always has been. Always will be. Any decision they make is theirs and theirs alone. We're just voices in the dark. You just wish we had the power you claim we do. Hell, WE wish we had the power you claim we do. But we don't. PGI made the decision. You get to live with it or play another game. As do we all.

Edited by Kiran Yagami, 14 March 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[Mole]

If PGI wants us to stop rejecting their ideas then maybe they should put some actual thought into their changes instead of hamfisting everything they try to do into something that hardly resembles what we have been asking for. I was excitited at the announcement but from what I saw of what was actually planning on being delivered to the playerbase only further cemented my belief that PGI is incompetent in developing new and thoughtful game mechanics.

Edited by Mole, 14 March 2017 - 07:23 AM.

[Bud Crue]

As to the thread title: PGI is responsible for their actions not the forums, not the community, not the whales, etc. Only PGI is responsible for PGI. They created this mess at mechcon. Were told within 24 hrs of some of the obvious problems. Then proceeded to waffle (of course we didn't really mean "quirks removed") make assurances of change (those are just place holder values) and then months later went to the PTS with something very similar and with all of the flaws that the original presentation suffered from (or worse). The blow back via the PTS criticism should not have been a shock to anyone paying attention.

As to your post: Well said.

[Wil McCullough]

it COULD get worse though. change for the sake of change isn't something to insist on doing.

the skill tree is a good idea but its current iteration is lacking, to put it politely.

now, it's not lacking in terms of sophistication, but lacking in terms of direction and its ability to address issues it was supposed to be addressing. i swear the skill maze layout has no reason other than someone saw the skill map from path of exile and insisted on making it look the same. seriously.

its design actually baffles me due to how it has this fascinating quality of achieving the opposite of what it's supposed to. lol.

take boating for instance.

the skill tree was conceptualized to make mixed loadouts equally viable as boating. right now the skill tree ENCOURAGES boating. nothing that can't be solved with diminishing returns for nodes though (the higher up each tree you go, the more expensive each node becomes and the less effect it has).

the skill tree was also conceptualized to bring mech performance in line. right now, some mechs are out-performing others way harder than on live.

i hope pgi addresses these issues with simple solutions before releasing a better skill tree. they kinda have a track record of convoluting things to near unrecognisable lengths.

like take the issue between is xl engines vs clan xl engines. pgi could just buff is side torso structure hit points and keep the "insta-death upon loss of side torso" mechanic but noooooooo. another topic for another time though.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 14 March 2017 - 07:33 AM.

[Appogee]

They should make all legs have only one leg.

Because "change is good", right?

So let's make it MechHopper Online.

Logic.

[1453 R]

Appogee, on 14 March 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

They should make all legs have only one leg.

Because "change is good", right?

So let's make it MechHopper Online.

Logic.

How many times can Piranha spend months on a piece of game development that ends up binned before we don't get any fresh new development?

Information Warfare was a good idea. It's now a dead idea. We don't get it anymore, because people freaked out over the laser thing and now it's been forever since folks even remembered that IW was supposed to be a pillar of this game equivalent in importance to Faction Frickin' Play.

Energy Draw was, perhaps, less of a good idea, but Ghost Heat is a horrible idea and needs to go away. The fundamentals of ED were ripped straight from player proposals and feedback, and yet the player community rose up and said "we'd rather keep this horrific mess you inflicted on us years ago than try anything new." Yeah, in ED's case the implementation was swiftly getting out of hand, but rather than try and learn from that session, correct the idea and implement a newer, more interesting version, it ended up binned.

Now our Skilltree is binned as well, and we get to keep the same crappy filler system we've been dealing with since forever. IW is dead and gone. ED is dead and gone. Half a year from now, when the Skilltree is dead and gone and when this same intense resistance to change of any sort for any reason is threatening to make FutureTech a dead letter as well, are people still going to be as happy about that as they are now?

[CDLord HHGD]

Repost

Skill tree or no skill tree
Infowar or no Infowar
Energy Draw or no Energy Draw
Lore or no Lore....

F*ck, I just want a game with SUBSTANCE that's more than a mech-skinned FPS epeen contest.

Can CR just add mechs please?

[Cato Phoenix]

I totally agree with the thought that no one should be spiking PGI's work-in-progress.

We should thank them to be willing to put more work in it.

[Lily from animove]

I disagree, PTS is to make sure that your new implemented idea is making the game better. So you fire up the PTS, make the skill tree, and get feedback. Then you probably not bring the idea to live servers and rework it's deisng if PTS showed it is not really improving things.

They can now rework more stuff in the skill tree and it's background system than quick number adjustemnts on PTS are possible, and can show a better one at a later point.

What PGI made didn't had a proper maturaty to get live and so it is fine if they delay it.

[Wil McCullough]

1453 R, on 14 March 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

How many times can Piranha spend months on a piece of game development that ends up binned before we don't get any fresh new development?

Information Warfare was a good idea. It's now a dead idea. We don't get it anymore, because people freaked out over the laser thing and now it's been forever since folks even remembered that IW was supposed to be a pillar of this game equivalent in importance to Faction Frickin' Play.

Energy Draw was, perhaps, less of a good idea, but Ghost Heat is a horrible idea and needs to go away. The fundamentals of ED were ripped straight from player proposals and feedback, and yet the player community rose up and said "we'd rather keep this horrific mess you inflicted on us years ago than try anything new." Yeah, in ED's case the implementation was swiftly getting out of hand, but rather than try and learn from that session, correct the idea and implement a newer, more interesting version, it ended up binned.

Now our Skilltree is binned as well, and we get to keep the same crappy filler system we've been dealing with since forever. IW is dead and gone. ED is dead and gone. Half a year from now, when the Skilltree is dead and gone and when this same intense resistance to change of any sort for any reason is threatening to make FutureTech a dead letter as well, are people still going to be as happy about that as they are now?

the skill tree, infotech and energy draw are all good ideas. but as i touched on earlier, good ideas are nothing if they come out looking like dung.

people are requesting refunds due to how badly implemented the skill tree is. pgi lost enough revenue to the extent that russ had to decide to postpone implementation of it so close to the deadline.

maybe it's the professional in me, but in my industry (advertising), good ideas are worth exactly flea **** unless it's executed well. my client isn't going to hand over marketing dollars if i go into a pitch with an outstanding ad campaign idea accompanied by horrid mock-ups.

from what i observe about other industries including the game development one, it's obvious they work the same way as well. i mean, if i designed something that not only doesn't earn my company money but made my company lose revenue, i'll get FIRED. and justifiably so.

[Ruar]

I'm pretty sure the OP hasn't thought through the idea of change for change sake.

Imagine if a school decided the lunches needed to be changed.

School- All lunches will now be required to have one of three sauces on all items. Sauce choices are soy, ghost pepper, or extra sour lemon. All students are required to use a minimum of one sauce. Two sauces are required in order to get a drink or dessert. Cafeteria servers will determine the correct amount of sauce to be used for each entree item.

Students- Sauces could be a good way of providing some extra flavor, but why do they have to be tied to our drinks and dessert. Let us choose which sauce we prefer and have some say so in which flavors are used. Only a small fraction of the student body likes ghost pepper, can we please swap that out for gravy instead. Here, a list of suggestions from the student body on how to make this work. Here, polls showing the most popular sauce flavors.

School- After hearing your feedback we've decided that you can now pick how much sauce is applied to each item but a minimum of one tablespoon has to be used. Drinks are no longer tied to a two sauce minimum, but dessert requires all three sauces to be used.

Students- That's not what we said. Why can't you listen to us? We are fine with having sauces at lunch, but let us have more say in how that sauce is applied and can we please have some input in which sauces are chosen. Look at all the feedback and discussion we've had about this. We gave you tons of suggestions... why aren't they being used?

School- We have heard your feedback and are happy to announce the great sauce party of 2017 will happen in two weeks. Based on your feedback we will add a fourth "mystery" sauce as an option but now you have to try all four sauces in order to get a dessert. Thank you for working with us through this difficult transition.

Students- We are done buying school lunch, time to figure out some other way to enjoy eating lunch.

Random student 0145- I love this school, I love the principle. Why can't you guys see the glory of the great sauce party 2017? You guys can never be happy. Please, please, force me to eat the sauces.


That's change. It's also change that ends up with everyone bringing in their lunch because no one likes how the sauces were implemented. It's also pretty reflective of how it's felt to provide feedback from both test periods and then see how this feedback was mostly ignored.

Edited by Ruar, 14 March 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[FupDup]

Bruh, most people complaining about the Skill Tree 1.0 already DID approach it from a standpoint of how to make it better for the game, NOT from the standpoint of how to keep the current skill tree forever and ever.

Specifically, the top complaints were the extended grind and godawful spiderweb tree structure (and by extension, the mandatory placeholder skills like Hill Climb, AMS Overload, and Arm Pitch that every single freaking mech was forced to take).

PGI, however, was unwilling to CHANGE Skill Tree 1.0 based on these complaints. See what I did there?

Pea Gee Eye wanted ST 1.0 in their unaltered format or not at all. They have an all-or-nothing position when it comes to things like this.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Appogee, on 14 March 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

They should make all legs have only one leg.

Because "change is good", right?

So let's make it MechHopper Online.

Logic.

This is why we can't have nice things. People who post crap like this just because they can.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

P.G.I. released Faction Warfare 4.1 without a PTS and without community feedback.


So now we are stuck with a system that has horrendous design shortcomings, that may or may not be fixed in 60-90 days.
Things that could have been addressed. Drove alot of people not only out of faction warfare, but right out of the game.

Is that what you really want for the game in general? Another horrendous design that drives player out of the game?

[Valdarion Silarius]

Prosperity Park, on 14 March 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

This is why we can't have nice things. People who post crap like this just because they can.

I highly doubt his post is the reason why we can't have nice things. I think it's really the lack of dev to community interaction is the real reason why we don't have nice things. Even Ubisoft does a better job reaching out to it's player base for input and feedback. And that's saying a lot.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 14 March 2017 - 08:25 AM.

[WarHippy]

1453 R, on 14 March 2017 - 07:16 AM, said:

…anyways. G’head and start slinging insults now, guys. I know how these threads go, but I just couldn’t keep quiet when I saw people actually, literally celebrating the death of the Skilltree. The death of the Skilltree is in no way a good thing. We all need to do better here, guys. Piranha, and also us.

The tree isn't dead only delayed as they workout some of the very real problems. We all want to see the game improve and change, but you need to get over the idea that any and all change is good. The fact that they have delayed the tree so they can improve upon it is a good thing.

[1Grimbane]

How many skill tree threads are there? i am getting tired of typing: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA I AM GLAD SKILL TREE IS DEAD

[C E Dwyer]

Nobody has said don't change the game, what they have been trying to say is don't push out a feature that only halfworks.

[Big Tin Man]

I'm just going to keep on banging this drum:

The first 40-60 unlocks should cost xp only, to mimic the old style of eliting. The remaining unlocks should represent purchasing modules and that's where they get their 9.1 million cbills sink. That is the way to make this 91 unlock system work. THIS SOLVES THE SINGLE LARGEST PROBLEM WITH THE SKILL TREE.

It's not perfect, but the economics work and it's a step forward. It fixes the broken whale economy and allows a skill tree that is better than the current version.