111 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

Was not a subscriber. Knew about him and his builds, saw a few video here and there...

But after he published this, I am now a subscriber.

--------------------

PS I don't understand the fallout from skill tree. From Mechcon announcement, that's one of the thing people are most excited about. Now, a flip all of a sudden? Your mech move 10% slower or play 5% tankier... big whoop. Metal is right, the core mechanics of shooting up something isn't changed. There is nothing game breaking in this new skill tree like the mini-map-gate, where infotech was fundamentally changed into something entirely uncomfortable.

I was skeptical at first with PGI thinking, the requirement for skilling up would be tremendous. But then, someone posted that the price tag is ONLY FREAKING 9 mil. WTF, that's super cheap! (actually, I still like my scale system better, search my thread for awesome idea) Each Ebon Jaguar that I own easily exceed that cost with full module purchase. 9 million is WAY cheaper than before.

In any case, I don't want to start another thread about whether skill tree is awesome/bad. If you got opinion about that, go to one of the twenty other threads already existed and vent your meta talk there. This is a Molten Metal appreciation thread. Support and subscribe to him if you like his build idea and for standing up to being a voice of reason.

(which is more than I can say for a few other youtubers... )

PS Did you know Sean Lang write for Sarna now? I just found that out recently. He's got a cool interview with Proton up.

[Kasumi Sumika]

I'm have been his fans and subscribers very long ago, his daily dose videos are entertaining and also helped me to be better Mechwarrior Pilot. He's also very chill and reasonable which a very big plus for me.

I agree with his opinion on Skill Tree Drama. People just chill out and not to overreact. I too welcome the changes and try to adapt to it. Because I'm still having fun in this game despite there some highs & lows in MW:O.

[Bradigus]

If he feels that he was giving money to a company purely out of desire to support what they're doing, and that whatever he got in return was a nice bonus, then why wasn't he simply donating money to them directly?

The in-game and online digital goods purchases are still transactions, and as such people have every right to be a bit peeved about fundamental changes to previously purchased products, being insulted (even if it was just teasing guys, pls), and having all previous progress effectively reset for a noticeable portion of their in-game time spent and a price tag slapped on the new progression path.

All in all, it's PGI shooting themselves in the foot for forcing people to either grind harder or spend more money. A few people voicing their distaste in such decisions (some louder than others) make little difference until the quarterly profits are counted up.

The argument that 'mechs will function just fine outside of the skill tree system will become more prevalent to a lot of people in the coming weeks, when people start going up against fully mastered 'mechs with fresh, un-mastered ones. The difference was a bit more distinctly noticeable on the PTS than it currently is. But I suppose that will be the community headache for that time.

Edited by Bradigus, 12 March 2017 - 08:20 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Just as a PSA

18 Million for 6+ robots who will use the same Mods is not the same thing as the 54 million to Skill Tree those robots, or the current proposed 24 300 000


It will not be cheaper if you play multiple robots (which most people do)

[Mystere]

[Skrapha]

Yeah Baradul kicks ***. Great player, great streamer. His videos helped me alot when first starting out, and still do, with what mechs excel at which play styles and load outs. Hope he sticks around. I ofr one think the new skill tree will be a nice change, and ill be able to master the mechs I dont have three of a kind of. It will shake up the "meta" and produce some interesting mechs, abominations, and terror urbies. Fingers crossed it doesnt break the game, coz the player base is so low as it is. The match maker can tell you that.

[cazidin]

Honestly, the biggest problem with the skill tree change is its bizarre and problematic design and the costs associated. Most of simply won't be able to re-master our stable of mechs, and while we may not play all or even most of them regularly, it's still a significant change that could've been easily accounted for and dealt with.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mcgral18, on 12 March 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

Just as a PSA

18 Million for 6+ robots who will use the same Mods is not the same thing as the 54 million to Skill Tree those robots, or the current proposed 24 300 000


It will not be cheaper if you play multiple robots (which most people do)

We're removing the whole having to buy 3 of the same mech thing for each mech. So now I can spend 13 million and then 5.4 million for its skills instead of buying 3 13 million dollar mechs then 18 mil on the modules to swap between them, assuming they use the exact same modules. Lets say I don't even want those extra two mechs and sell them for their half price back and make up 13 mil. so total now is 44 mil while total after tree is 18.4 mil, way cheaper.

Not to mention you are entirely cutting out that you can't swap modules between mechs for weapons in some cases, as they use different weapons. For example if I'm using a PPC Summoner, Gauss Night Gyr, ERML Hellbringer, LPL Shadow Cat, etc I'd need to spend 6 mil on each just to get the weapon mods for them, which already is more than the cost of the *entire* skill tree, then I have to spend 12 million on seismic and radar derp just to swap them between the chassis instead of just having it already on all. Not to mention in the current system I'd have to buy 2 extra copies of each of those mechs to actually master them.

How exactly, in what actual way is the current system any cheaper than this new one coming? All I'm seeing is how little I have to pay now and how much easier it will be to just buy a new mech and master it without grinding out 2 clones.



For the people with 100+ mechs, how do they even use all of them?

[Mcgral18]

Skrapha, on 12 March 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

It will shake up the "meta"

Doubtful

[Tordin]

Agreed with Baradul. Yeah you can say alot about PGI (not the best communication indeed etc). But if you feel you get solid fun outta the game wheter or not of some kind of skill tree and so on and want to support it, then whats the problem?
I guess Im a "dolphin" or orca regarding money spent. Not the best player, not totally casual but not a competive player either.

The Reddit community is a cesspool with the worst of opinions, and yeah. I've been stalking those forums and most seems to be pretty much biased zealots.Doing everything to murder the confidence and good parts thats left of the community and PGI. Imo.
'Again PGI have silently taken some suggestions from the player bases members and made good use of them (lessening the respec burden etc in the new skill system).
Just that shows PGI somehow listens to us. Though they need to thread carefully with bad jokes and stamping people "cheapskates" and whatever even if there were no malevolent intent behind those wordings. Im might be a cheapskate, only brought... 2 modules tops with cbills? Gotten most from preorders and such. So what I get back from those modules I have are a nice bonus.

In the end. Its just a change, a change to adapt to. As long as you have fun, keep on piloting like the mech warrior you are. And support PGI if you so desire even if its not a requirment. Its F2P after all.

[Mcgral18]

Dakota1000, on 12 March 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

We're removing the whole having to buy 3 of the same mech thing for each mech. So now I can spend 13 million and then 5.4 million for its skills instead of buying 3 13 million dollar mechs then 18 mil on the modules to swap between them, assuming they use the exact same modules. Lets say I don't even want those extra two mechs and sell them for their half price back and make up 13 mil. so total now is 44 mil while total after tree is 18.4 mil, way cheaper.

Not to mention you are entirely cutting out that you can't swap modules between mechs for weapons in some cases, as they use different weapons. For example if I'm using a PPC Summoner, Gauss Night Gyr, ERML Hellbringer, LPL Shadow Cat, etc I'd need to spend 6 mil on each just to get the weapon mods for them, which already is more than the cost of the *entire* skill tree, then I have to spend 12 million on seismic and radar derp just to swap them between the chassis instead of just having it already on all. Not to mention in the current system I'd have to buy 2 extra copies of each of those mechs to actually master them.

How exactly, in what actual way is the current system any cheaper than this new one coming? All I'm seeing is how little I have to pay now and how much easier it will be to just buy a new mech and master it without grinding out 2 clones.



For the people with 100+ mechs, how do they even use all of them?

That's why I limited it to 6


H2C
H2CA
Kodiak
Timby
Gyr
Eb Jag


They'll all use Seismic, PPC and Radar Derp and Gauss mods
All the same ones, all Gauss PPC builds.

If we don't count Weapon mods, the 12 mil from the required non-shite modules are used for all 200 robots, that's a mighty savings, to the 4 300 000 for each of those 200 robots, or even the 80 you'd want.


There's also the time investment. 1500 EXP per node would mean 1 node per average win, or 3 losses for a node.
Let's say 100 matches, to be both generous and take into 1st victory bonus, to level a robot with the new system.
That sounds significantly longer than Live
Live being 57 250 EXP for the master mod slot


It has been reduced to 800, and might see a further decrease with the Cbill drop, but that still leaves it at 72 000 XP for 90 nodes

Much better than the previous 135 000 grindfest...

[Alan Davion]

I'll agree that Molten Metal makes some good points, but the one issue I take with his video is when he talks about change.

Are these changes being made in order to make the game better? Or are these changes just being made for the sake of change?

Right now I honestly don't know, although I really feel like PGI is just making these changes just to change something and that does not sit well with me. And frankly it shouldn't sit well with me.

PGI's track record is against them and they just keep adding to it with screw up after screw up.

I honestly wonder if they are actively trying to sabotage their own game.

[Mcgral18]

razenWing, on 12 March 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

blah blah blah, don't care.

Well that's just too bad now, isn't it?

[razenWing]

Mcgral18, on 12 March 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

Well that's just too bad now, isn't it?

yup, read edit. though I doubt it's any different conclusion. i just feel like i owe you an explanation.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mcgral18, on 12 March 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

That's why I limited it to 6


H2C
H2CA
Kodiak
Timby
Gyr
Eb Jag


They'll all use Seismic, PPC and Radar Derp and Gauss mods
All the same ones, all Gauss PPC builds.

If we don't count Weapon mods, the 12 mil from the required non-shite modules are used for all 200 robots, that's a mighty savings, to the 4 300 000 for each of those 200 robots, or even the 80 you'd want.


There's also the time investment. 1500 EXP per node would mean 1 node per average win, or 3 losses for a node.
Let's say 100 matches, to be both generous and take into 1st victory bonus, to level a robot with the new system.
That sounds significantly longer than Live
Live being 57 250 EXP for the master mod slot


It has been reduced to 800, and might see a further decrease with the Cbill drop, but that still leaves it at 72 000 XP for 90 nodes

Much better than the previous 135 000 grindfest...

You're actually basing your argument here on the idea that the madman buying 200+ (or even just 80 mechs) is actually running PPC+Gauss builds on every single one of them. You know as well as I do that the people with all those mechs will be having different builds with a variety of weapons on all of them. Anyone who is planning to just run PPC+Gauss on everything really wouldn't have any more than Hunchback IIC, Hunchback IIC-A, Night-Gyr D, Kodiak-3, Summoner (loyalty only), and either a timby or jag.

As for the XP, GXP costs have been removed from buying the modules, which helps a lot for new players. GXP now acts as general xp which is accumulated and can be used just like normal XP but on any mech. GXP is currently 5% of your xp per match, so lets assume you average 1000 experience points per match, that's 50 gxp a match and 15k for seismic, so 300 matches for that alone as an example. It would take a new player about 1000 matches to skill out a mech at rates like this.

Basically the time investment is much less front loaded and actually gives me something to do with the 100k+ spare XP on every mech I commonly use while simultaneously lessening the burden on new players.

EDIT: Also lets not forget the time investment in the current is not just for one mech to mastery, its one to mastery and 1 to elite and 1 to basic so that that one in particular can get to mastery.

Edited by Dakota1000, 12 March 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[GrimRiver]

He pretty much said what I've been saying.

Alot people are complaining for complaining sake and some are making good points.

You don't even need to use the skill tree to play the game, heck alot of clan mechs don't even have quirks to make them good, quirks are just a bonus which the skill tree adds.

Yes there is a nerf across the board but you got to admit some of those cooldown quirks are just insane, if mechs are gonna get crazy cooldowns all over the place than you might as well just decrease the cooldown on the weapon itself and remove the quirk.

After all, AC10's shouldn't be firing faster than a AC5's, it just demotes the reason to even own an AC5.

For those crying about remastering 400 mechs again, well how many of those mechs are just gonna sit in their mechs bays to never be touched again?

The skill tree isn't prefect, sure but PGI can tweak that as time goes on, it's not like they want their major source of income to tank.

It hasn't even hit live server yet, just give a chance.

It's just like people wanna abort a fetus out of fear that it MIGHT become a serial killer before it's even born.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 12 March 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

Just as a PSA

18 Million for 6+ robots who will use the same Mods is not the same thing as the 54 million to Skill Tree those robots, or the current proposed 24 300 000


It will not be cheaper if you play multiple robots (which most people do)

PSA to the PSA

Skill Nodes are going to be 45000 or less now.... So not sure about all the cost numbers floating about. 45k x91 is.... $4,095,000? Am I missing a cost here? Since out might go live even cheaper?

And one does not need 91 nodes unlocked to be the equivalent of a Mastered Mech in the current live build. Compared to a live build without permanently assigned modules, it's closer 60ish nodes. That's 2.7 million.

If you did have modules permanently attached to each mattered build, you will be reimbursed more than enough to cover all 91. If you didn't.... You are claiming PGI should reimburse you for an investment you never made. You are not being robbed, you got to enjoy gaming the system for years, and now that gravy train is gone.

Also, due to engine and agility decoupling, and new adjusted and still quirked (though apparently not so much offensively) base stats across the board, YMMV not just by faction tech, or even chassis, but by variant. Current Live, everyone has to unlock the same 13 nodes. In the new tree unlocking the same set path is not only no longer required, but if anyone actually tested things deeply.... It's not desirable to achieve "best" results.

Also being roundly ignored by those griping about Radar Derp and Seismic being buried.... The very design of the Sensor Web actually reduces the overall efficacy and prevalence of things like ECM, as investing heavily in that means somewhere else has to be ignored or skimped on. People have complained about ECM, Wallhack and even Radar Deep as too OP and prevalent pretty much forever. Anything creating a net reduction in those should be a good thing, limiting them more toward units willing to dedicate a lot of resources to sensors.

Concerns over individual values, and how timely PGI will be in addressing them, atl those are indeed valid, but those values do really need to be tested in a large data pool, in actual and fully representative 12v12 conditions to get balanced accurately.

Yes, 91 clicks is annoying. So are the the current 3 clicks per node, etc of the current UI. PGI builds inefficient UIs, nothing news worthy there. It's not breaking anyone's frikking mouse. You click at least 3 times that often, EVERY. SINGLE. MATCH.

BS reasoning just for the sake of QQ.

Crying over Russ saying Cheapskates? Only two types are making anything out of that. Pampered, sheltered, safe space needing PC pansies, who get #triggered over everything, precisely because they are always looking for a reason to be offended. And people just looking for a new banner to wave to try to further incite the mindless mob.

So whatever. It ain't perfect. There are going to be things likely flat out broken at launch. That many moving parts? Even the big studios end up dropping (sometimes multiple) hot fixes after. I'm sure this will need several too. People who address upset because they can't just build their super linear minmax (modern meaning) boat build and get max benefits out of everything... Are going to stay upset. Serial Experimenters, like me? Will continue to experiment and stay space poor, much like now. People too lazy to do their own research will continue to lick up the Reddit pap like it's the Gospel.

But hey, whatever, right?

razenWing, on 12 March 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

Was not a subscriber. Knew about him and his builds, saw a few video here and there...

But after he published this, I am now a subscriber.

--------------------

PS I don't understand the fallout from skill tree. From Mechcon announcement, that's one of the thing people are most excited about. Now, a flip all of a sudden? Your mech move 10% slower or play 5% tankier... big whoop. Metal is right, the core mechanics of shooting up something isn't changed. There is nothing game breaking in this new skill tree like the mini-map-gate, where infotech was fundamentally changed into something entirely uncomfortable.

I was skeptical at first with PGI thinking, the requirement for skilling up would be tremendous. But then, someone posted that the price tag is ONLY FREAKING 9 mil. WTF, that's super cheap! (actually, I still like my scale system better, search my thread for awesome idea) Each Ebon Jaguar that I own easily exceed that cost with full module purchase. 9 million is WAY cheaper than before.

In any case, I don't want to start another thread about whether skill tree is awesome/bad. If you got opinion about that, go to one of the twenty other threads already existed and vent your meta talk there. This is a Molten Metal appreciation thread. Support and subscribe to him if you like his build idea and for standing up to being a voice of reason.

(which is more than I can say for a few other youtubers... )

PS Did you know Sean Lang write for Sarna now? I just found that out recently. He's got a cool interview with Proton up.

+1, thumbs up

[El Bandito]

GrimRiver, on 12 March 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yes there is a nerf across the board but you got to admit some of those cooldown quirks are just insane, if mechs are gonna get crazy cooldowns all over the place than you might as well just decrease the cooldown on the weapon itself and remove the quirk.

Except PGI didn't just nerf cooldowns, it nerfed velocities, range, and heat, and many of those reduced quirks can't even be regained after you use the new skill tree. Worst of all, many of the quirk deficits are going to happen to some of the worst IS mechs in the game. One would think PGI should have atleast some foresight when hacking away at quirk like a drunk lumberjack.

[GrimRiver]

El Bandito, on 12 March 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

Except PGI didn't just nerf cooldowns, it nerfed velocities, range, and heat, and many of those reduced quirks can't even be regained after you use the new skill tree. Worst of all, many of the quirk deficits are going to happen to some of the worst IS mechs in the game. One would think PGI should have atleast some foresight when hacking away at quirk like a drunk lumberjack.

I was mostly using cooldowns as an example, but yes even bad mechs are going to get hit.

If those mechs aren't played anymore then PGI will have to buff them if enough people reports about it.

I'm kinda glad for the nerf across the broad because it was slowly nudging it's way to the crazy fast Japanese mecha TTK levels.

[El Bandito]

GrimRiver, on 12 March 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

I'm kinda glad for the nerf across the broad because it was slowly nudging it's way to the crazy fast Japanese mecha TTK levels.

Quirkless Clan meta mechs are gonna be more deadly than ever, with the new skill tree though.