156 replies to this topic

[Clownwarlord]

Hoss Chimp, on 14 March 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

So after reading the patch notes, I'm gonna have to call it and say it is not worth investing in any more clan mechs until we see how the new weapons actually impact the sides.

While I think there will be some cool things that can be done with the new weapons on the clan side, the new Inner sphere goodies are just way too awesome. I feel IS is going to roll through the clans until PGI nerfs the weapons to a point where there was no point in introducing them to begin with.

If they included just a couple more quality goodies to the clans, it would be pretty even. My unit plays both, and I quite enjoy both. We switch back and forth.

I am really disappointed with PGI went so gun ho on IS that they forgot to make it even.


Keep in mind, I PLAY BOTH SIDES OF THE SPHERE.


What are your opinions?

I completely disagree, and here is why. The clans have the advantage currently with weapon tech, and for the most part the new Inner Sphere weapons will just bring them up to par. An example of this is the streaks, the lbxs, uacs, and LFEs. Now why is that my example is because the LFEs will be the same as clan xl but not as light. The streaks, uacs, and lbxs will also break even in the balance because they will suffer the same balancing as the clan weapons do. An example of what the clans face currently would be high jam length for UACs and the Inner Sphere will most likely face the same, and again looking currently at the streaks and their long recycle time will also be put on the Inner Sphere equivalent.

Then there are the weapons that the clans will also be getting during these changes that also the Inner Sphere will get. An example of these would be light and heavy gauss, light and heavy PPC, and laser ams. These will all be the same just the difference is (most likely) that one will only be allowed to be used on that faction's mech. Example of that is Inner Sphere light gauss will most likely only be allowed to be on an Inner Sphere mech. The same could be said for the other weapons that both clan and Inner Sphere will get.

Lastly is the few weapons that only one side will get but the other will not.
IS:
RACs
MRMs
Rocket Launchers
Snub Nose PPC
Stealth Armour

Clan:
ATM
LAP
LTAG
Heavy Lasers

I am going to ignore the Micro Lasers and Light Ferro-Fibrous Armour. Why is because the LFFA is most likely just going to bring it closer to clan in some way of giving IS options to their builds, but wont affect much in survive-ability or play-ability. Then the Micro Lasers, well if they are weaker then smalls what is the point?

Now back to the RACs, well they could be game breaking but some one point out they will still take same crit space and tonnage as in table top and if that is the case it will be tough to fit a bunch unless you are piloting an assault (like annihilator maybe, or mauler). Then is the MRMs which are not guided, and effectively are just the same as SRMs but better range. Then is the rocket Launcher a one time use weapon, again not game changing ... considering you walk in pop your rocks and then what? Next would be a Snub Nose PPC which is a close range PPC but considering the current meta and maps most people play on are for long range (dual gauss and dual erppc) it will not be game breaking unless they have no heat for it. Lastly for the IS would be the Stealth Armour ut from what I read it requires ECM to be effective, while there are numerous ECM mechs now in the game it is no guarantee in PUG land that everyone will be using one when piloting an IS mech.

On to the Clan side, well there is ATMs which at close range will most likely be devastating and then greatly fall off over distance making it not work with in the current meta (long range direct fire). Next is LAP ... light active probe ... yeah maybe this was put up to help counter the Stealth Armour but ultimately pointless. Next LTAG, light tag which I am trying not to laugh does ZERO damage, and so again pointless. Next is Heavy Lasers, which depending on implementation could be game breaking but only the same as a RAC might be.

So lets re-cap. The only things to watch for in the new tech is the heavy lasers and rotary auto-cannons. Most likely though the RACs will not be very accurate in the way of stream damage just like a laser, countered by jam chance as well. Then the Heavy Lasers will run into issues with the high heat. So what I am getting at is just keep playing what you want to play clan or IS because if past events or recent tell us anything they will not make it into the game if there is a PTS on them.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Viktor Drake, on 15 March 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

Why do people forget the Heat costs Clans pay for all those light weight weapons. Hell in alot of cases that TOTAL tonnage spend and crit spaced used is higher on a Clan Mech for a given weapon due to the fact that the Clan mech has to mount several more DHS to offset the heat penalty they pay.

Take a Clan ER ML. It is a 6 heat weapon...6 HEAT. That is 50% HOTTER than an IS ML. The both weight 1 ton and take on slot but the Clan Mech has to take an additional DHS to offset the heat which makes a Clan ER ML into a 2 ton, 3 slot weapon. Sure you save a ton here, maybe a slot there on a given weapon or piece of equipment but when your required to add 3-5 more DHS on your mech to keep those weapons cool, that tonnage and slot advantage goes bye bye fast.

Your point is dumb... a cERML is essentially a LL, so your math is terrible and fallacious.

[justcallme A S H]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 March 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

cXL > LFE=XL (situationally) > STD

Its pretty simple. Anyone trying to say LFE is actually better than a cXL is wrong. Period.

Yeah I don't understand how people see the LFE as "fixing the IS XL problems. It doesn't even go half way.

Yeonne Greene, on 15 March 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

XL is lighter than LFE >> get bigger engine with more internal sinks and greater run speed for given amount of firepower than with LFE.

What part of this progression escapes you?

I don't deny that LFE is major, but at best it only partially bridges the gap.

Not even partially. The amount of mechs it would actually be viable on is less than 25%.
It'll do absolutely nothing as a result given the horribly selective application/benefit scenarios.

Most IS mechs will still need to be IS XL. Fact.

[Clownwarlord]

justcallme A S H, on 15 March 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

Yeah I don't understand how people see the LFE as "fixing the IS XL problems. It doesn't even go half way.




Not even partially. The amount of mechs it would actually be viable on is less than 25%.
It'll do absolutely nothing as a result given the horribly selective application/benefit scenarios.

Most IS mechs will still need to be IS XL. Fact.

Actually while the LFE is not better than the clan xl it does allow for a lighter engine to be put into a mech without the side torso death of an IS XL. So basically any standard engine can be replaced with an LFE to give more tonnage to weapons or heat sinks or what ever just like an xl, but LFE is still heavier than an XL while being lighter than a STD engine.

[justcallme A S H]

Yes, 25% saving over STD. Been covered in this thread many times.

However you are still missing the point. In the current space/state of the game - to fit enough cooling/speed/weaponry - the vast majority of IS mechs must be XL.

The ONLY IS mechs I have that are not XL out of the 50 or so I have - Atlas/KGC. Everything else is XL. Some Atlas builds the LFE won't fit into either. Griffins and Marauders are others that will benefit on certain builds but the overall majority is IS XL still mandatory.

And thus the IS XL issue - which is the biggest balance issue in the game and has been since, forever, remains.
As more and more Clan Poptart/PPFLD comes into play the IS XL issue grows.

[Y E O N N E]

Laser boats also benefit from the LFE. A 75-ton 'Mech with a 350LFE can fit 3xLL+5xERML on it with competitive-grade cooling capacity; you sacrifice 6 points off of the alpha but gain significant range and lose the XL check vulnerability. Unless something radical changes with the skill tree values, you also get to buff your laser duration down to ~0.9 seconds on the Larges, which is a much greater boon than whatever negligible amount you would shave off of the Large Pulse with the XL build.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually while the LFE is not better than the clan xl

we dont know that. if the LFE has no penalties its not strictly worse than the clan xl.

[Carl Vickers]

Khobai, on 15 March 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

we dont know that. if the LFE has no penalties its not strictly worse than the clan xl.

Who cares about the penalties, its the weight saving. Due to 25% vs 50% IS will always be inferior.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 15 March 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Who cares about the penalties, its the weight saving. Due to 25% vs 50% is will always be inferior.

except once a side torso is destroyed it absolutely does matter.

if the LFE has no penalties then its only inferior to a CXL until the CXL loses a side torso. Once the CXL loses a side torso the LFE becomes superior. that 25% weight advantage completely disappears because of the speed and heat dissipation loss.

and its not like side torsos are hard to pop afterall. its actually pretty easy to pop them. and it will be even easier with the new skill tree and higher pinpoint damage weapons like heavy ppcs and heavy gauss.

so the LFE may not be strictly inferior to the CXL depending on penalties. the fact is we dont know how good the LFE is going to be. if it doesnt have penalties its going to be a huge game changer for IS. If it does have penalties though it will be strictly inferior to the Clan XL.

Edited by Khobai, 15 March 2017 - 07:22 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Its like talking to a one eyed brick wall that doesnt know the actual advantages he has.

[justcallme A S H]

Does matter? What are you on about. A clan mech loses a left torso, 9/10 times that is over 50% of the weaponry gone.
We already know the LFE details, are you that stupid you cannot work out how good it is NOT going to be?

A minor speed loss and heat loss realistically makes richard-all difference in the real world. I can play just fine missing a torso.
LFE is still inferior, as don't forget, the IS mech has already lost probably half it's weapons and heatsinks too - It's not as if a torso loss means it magically keeps its loadout. Who cares if it's not slower, it is already SLOW because the LFE is not a IS XL so you're still sacrificing SPEED.

- LFE is inferior to Clan XL, it's not even an argument.
- IS XL is still going to be the lifeblood of 75% of the IS mechs.
- LFE will help a tiny corner of IS mechs only.
- This FPS game is still unbalanced due to IS XL.
- Clan will still be favoured for Comp/High level play, for the above reasons.

Carl Vickers, on 15 March 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

Its like talking to a one eyed brick wall that doesnt know the actual advantages he has.

You give that one eye too much credit.

It's a blind wall.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 March 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[Scout Derek]

justcallme A S H, on 15 March 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

Does matter? What are you on about. A clan mech loses a left torso, 9/10 times that is over 50% of the weaponry gone.
We already know the LFE details, are you that stupid you cannot work out how good it is NOT going to be?

A minor speed loss and heat loss realistically makes richard-all difference in the real world. I can play just fine missing a torso.
LFE is still inferior as, don't forget, the IS mech has already lost probably half it's weapons and heatsinks too - It's not as if a torso loss means it magically keeps its loadout.

- LFE is inferior to Clan XL, it's not even an argument.
- IS XL is still going to be the lifeblood of 75% of the IS mechs.
- LFE will help a tiny corner of IS mechs only.
- This FPS game is still unbalanced due to IS XL.
- Clan will still be favoured for Comp/High level play, for the above reasons.



You give that one eye too much credit.

It's a blind wall.

Honestly only a few builds that use a XL will be able to use a less engine rating LFE and use light ferro, they'll be the only ones that actually get a little buff to durability.

For me the Shawk 2d2 runs a brawl build of SRMs. It has 8 crit slots leftover and can't use regular Ferro, so that's a plus for it, add in LFE and that gives me another 2 slots to work with, and I can fit in a slightly slower engine rating and now be able to lose the weaponless side and still get to work.

Quick question, does anybody know how much less light ferro will remove tonnage as to regular ferro?

[Y E O N N E]

Scout Derek, on 15 March 2017 - 07:32 PM, said:

Honestly only a few builds that use a XL will be able to use a less engine rating LFE and use light ferro, they'll be the only ones that actually get a little buff to durability.

For me the Shawk 2d2 runs a brawl build of SRMs. It has 8 crit slots leftover and can't use regular Ferro, so that's a plus for it, add in LFE and that gives me another 2 slots to work with, and I can fit in a slightly slower engine rating and now be able to lose the weaponless side and still get to work.

Quick question, does anybody know how much less light ferro will remove tonnage as to regular ferro?

It's half the value of Ferro, so 6%. For most robots below 75 tons it will save you about a half-ton of weight, and up to a ton above.

[Scout Derek]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 March 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

It's half the value of Ferro, so 6%. For most robots below 75 tons it will save you about a half-ton of weight, and up to a ton above.

Mmm..... that's not much, but a little helpful for my mechs that have crit slots and not a max engine. thanks for the info.

[Mcgral18]

Scout Derek, on 15 March 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Mmm..... that's not much, but a little helpful for my mechs that have crit slots and not a max engine. thanks for the info.

It's REALLY bad

Same cost as cFF, but 6% VS 20%
Literally more than 3 times worse

[Y E O N N E]

Scout Derek, on 15 March 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Mmm..... that's not much, but a little helpful for my mechs that have crit slots and not a max engine. thanks for the info.

TBQH, we'd get more out of the LFE if PGI also placed Small Cockpit and XL Gyro into the game. At least at the small end of the spectrum (lights up to 25 tons) you could then replace the XL entirely since the weight difference would be at or near zero, and on the larger end you can now run something like that previously mentioned 75-ton laser-boat on a 375, making it almost identical in performance to a classic 54-point Clan-vomit TBR in speed, damage, heat-curve, and reach pending a few specific implementation details.

But we didn't get those things.

[justcallme A S H]

Scout Derek, on 15 March 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Mmm..... that's not much, but a little helpful for my mechs that have crit slots and not a max engine. thanks for the info.

Yep it's going to come into play in even more specialist circumstances than LFE