20 replies to this topic

[Arugela]

Is anyone going to be loading up clan heavy lasers and just fireing them off constantly. Say on a Direwolf or Kodiak? 8)

I hope they put in the 150 ton mechs with super high mounted laser guns. Those will be great for heavy lasers.

All you will need is that and LAMS and you are completely self sufficient! 8p I'm claiming creation of the term LAMeS on the laser ams when it overwhelms general Lurm usage!! ><

I hope the LAMES are one slot so they can go in forhead slots also. If not they will make great belly button lint or rings on my kodiaks...

they can't put this stuff in quick enough. It would nice if they stuck the weapons in before the civil war pack is out..

Edit: And I hope the micro lasers don't induce ghost heat.

Edited by Arugela, 14 March 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[AncientRaig]

Well, If PGI does them right one heavy laser should incur a ghost heat penalty for firing to reflect the fact that in the lore, and in CBT, they generated so much heat that it was vented into the mech's systems and caused all sorts of issues with the electronics, HUD, targeting systems, etc. and since MWO doesn't have any heat penalties other than ghost heat, that's kinda the only option. The other issue is the fact that a HML builds up almost as much heat when fired as an IS LL, so you're gonna need a lot of heat sinks. On the other hand, you'll melt basically anything just by looking at it funny if you can fire off an alpha strike without overheating and killing yourself.

[Steel Raven]

It's slightly hotter than the Clan ER PPC on the table top, it also shorter range than the Large Pulse Laser.

I was hoping for HAGs myself but I guess we should see if they get RACs right first.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Laser without the range advantage and even higher heat? No thanks.
Oh an ATM are going to be crap, they specifically function as a multi-range weapon system which is inferior to a focused build in the context of MWO fights.
Essentially it cannot be balanced as a weapon system due to the way the game is played.
And the other stuff, 3 inferior versions of stuff we already have that save us 0.5 tons... yeah useless.
I guess LAMS is kinda cool... with the heat issues Clan mechs have I doubt I will ever use it.
As for the MGs, well, I guess they might come in handy if the IS is gonna stuff themselves with RAC ammo.

I do not care much about the balance(pointless in team-driven games), I just wanted some new options for mech loadouts to bring some variety to my dropdeck.

[Arugela]

Heavy machine guns on an adder or something with pure ballistics could be nice. And my favorite 6 Heavy machine gun King crab might be interesting to look at!! ><

[Black Lanner]

Poptimus Rhyme Wallace, on 15 March 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

Laser without the range advantage and even higher heat? No thanks.
Oh an ATM are going to be crap, they specifically function as a multi-range weapon system which is inferior to a focused build in the context of MWO fights.
Essentially it cannot be balanced as a weapon system due to the way the game is played.
And the other stuff, 3 inferior versions of stuff we already have that save us 0.5 tons... yeah useless.
I guess LAMS is kinda cool... with the heat issues Clan mechs have I doubt I will ever use it.
As for the MGs, well, I guess they might come in handy if the IS is gonna stuff themselves with RAC ammo.

I do not care much about the balance(pointless in team-driven games), I just wanted some new options for mech loadouts to bring some variety to my dropdeck.

I find your statement about ATMs lacking a... shall we say, basis of knowledge? Or possibly perspective...

First, ATMs have Artemis IV hard wired. A recent example of what ATMs are capable of is this: 1 ATM 12 has a Damage Potential of 36 damage, weighs 7 tons, 8 heat, 5 crits

Now we compare it to ASRM6s, first you need 3 launchers for 36 damage. Next 3 ASRM6s weigh 7.5 tons, causes 12 heat (before counting Ghost heat, I forget the specifics of Ghost Heat potential on SRM6s), and takes up 9 crits *edit:* I checked and you can fire up to 4 SRM6s without heat penalty.

So yeah, Clearly the large ATM launcher is generally superior when used at the same ranges one commonly uses SRMs... here are the Table Top stats:

ATM 3 is 1.5 tons (equivialent of a SRM6), 2 crits, Damage potential of 9, 2 Heat
ATM 6 is 2.5 tons (equivialent of a ASRM6 or LRM 10), 3 crits, Damage potential of 18, 4 Heat
ATM 9 is 5 tons (equivalent of a LRM 20), 4 crits, Damage potential of 27, 6 Heat
(for completeness) ATM 12 is 7 tons, 5 crits, Damage potential of 36, 8 Heat

Note that the Weight, Crits, and Heat of the ATM 6 are the same as an ASRM6 with a potential of 50% more damage, and the ability to do the same damage as the ASRM6 at a greater range.

As for the Heavy Lasers, I'll post the TT stats here as well:

Small is .5 tons, 1 crit, 3 heat, 6 damage, 90m (supposed to be the same range as the I.S. SL)
Medium is 1 ton, 2 crits, 7 heat, 10 damage, 180m (supposed to be the same range as the I.S. ML)
Large is 4 tons, 3 crits, 18 heat(!), 16 damage, 450m (supposed to be the same range as the I.S. LL)

I think 3 or 4 HMLs are going to be the Meta on Fast Lights and Mediums, with more heat efficient lasers as backup so that DPS can be maintained while the 'Mech cools off. I can see Linebackers with Gauss and HMLs being a serious pain, and my Night Gyr D is going to be a Brawler with 4 ATM 9s, and a Close range Alpha of 128 damage...

Oh, yes! The TT Micro Laser stats: ER Micro- 1 heat, 2 damage, .25 tons, Micro Pulse- 2 Heat, 3 damage, .5 tons

I am just patiently waiting for my ign namesake to be released, so I can mount 5 HMLs, ECM, and plenty of DHS.

Edited by Black Lanner, 15 March 2017 - 03:37 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Steel Raven, on 15 March 2017 - 12:08 AM, said:

It's slightly hotter than the Clan ER PPC on the table top, it also shorter range than the Large Pulse Laser.

I was hoping for HAGs myself but I guess we should see if they get RACs right first.

HAG, ERHL, IATMs, MAGshoots, silver bullet Gauss variable impulse Lasers are Jihad Era stuff not civilwar.

Edit: imagine that rocket Locust sneaking up on you from behind with 2 RL20.....

Edited by The Basilisk, 15 March 2017 - 02:37 AM.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Black Lanner, on 15 March 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

I find your statement about ATMs lacking a... shall we say, basis of knowledge? Or possibly perspective...

If the ATM flat out is better than either SRM or LRM systems PGI would be invalidating equipment, now I know most people dont have much faith in them, but they are hardly that thick.
Most "meta" relies on similar ranged weapons, or boated weapons, the ATM being versatile in nature is going against the meta grain.

I really hope they make them interesting and worthwhile, my complaint is mainly that I dont see any kind of variety for clans coming, just a new "best meta mech" and some really really hot beam weapons, which we already have.
As a clan player I would love to have more viable variety instead of the limited options you got if you want to put numbers on the board in any way.

Edited by Poptimus Rhyme Wallace, 15 March 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[Black Lanner]

The Basilisk, on 15 March 2017 - 02:26 AM, said:

Edit: imagine that rocket Locust sneaking up on you from behind with 2 RL20.....

RLs are one shot weapons, if you can mount Rockets without using weapon hardpoints, or multiple RLs on the same mount ... now THAT could be interesting!

Poptimus Rhyme Wallace, on 15 March 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

If the ATM flat out is better than either SRM or LRM systems PGI would be invalidating equipment.
Most "meta" relies on similar ranged weapons, or boated weapons, the ATM being versatile in nature is going against the meta grain.

I really hope they make them interesting and worthwhile, my complaint is mainly that I dont see any kind of variety for clans coming, just a new "best meta mech" and some really really hot beam weapons, which we already have.
As a clan player I would love to have more viable variety instead of the limited options you got if you want to put numbers on the board in any way.

I see your point a bit clearer, and you have a valid point. However, I think that ATMs are going to be used over SRMs when weight allows... they are going to be the new "splat!" that can do damage at better range. I think that as far as the Lasers go... well, there is a one ton weapon that can do as much or more damage as 4, 5, and 7 ton weapons. As far as other new weapons systems... well we shall have to wait for the Jihad... Heavy and ER Flamers, Plasma Cannons, AP Gauss, Ferro- Lamello Armor, Improved JJs and HAGs!

Edited by Black Lanner, 15 March 2017 - 03:56 AM.

[Reno Blade]

I think the Heavy Laser in TT was just
take standard IS laser
+2x slots
+2x damage
+2x heat
same range
same weight

so in short, they are similar to binary laser (IS) = basically 2 lasers in one, but weigt the same as a single laser and do not have any clan range/dmg advantage

For MWO implementation balancing idea of the new tech, check my signarture

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Indeed, the Heavy Lasers are a possible boon, I just fear the Beam duration is going to be horribly long, CerML require quite a bit of face-time already, and their lower heat compared to a Heavy coupled with their range lets you do alot more damage at less risky ranges (getting with range of an IS UAC20 sounds really uncomfortable).
Given the expected heat+beam time I dont see how a group of Heavy lasers outperform a Group of pulse lasers.

Either way it is all speculation until we get our hands on it, Really hoping that there is a reason to bring large ATMS instead of just boating smaller ones for instance, would finally allow for some versatile pure missile builds ^^

[Black Lanner]

Poptimus Rhyme Wallace, on 15 March 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

Either way it is all speculation until we get our hands on it, Really hoping that there is a reason to bring large ATMS instead of just boating smaller ones for instance, would finally allow for some versatile pure missile builds ^^

I think larger ATMs will be good for 'Mechs that only have one Missile hardpoint that normally seems useless i.e. the Marauder IIC 8.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

I was hoping we (IS and Clan) would get reactive/reflective armour.

That way Info tech get more important, knowing which kind of armour to send to the front before pushing and, making people more aware of paperdoll changes when searching for targets would help to differentiate the "scout" role in bigger fights.

Edited by Poptimus Rhyme Wallace, 15 March 2017 - 04:29 AM.

[Steel Raven]

Allot of these weapons are needed for future mech packs like the Thanatos and Fafnir unless PGI wanted to just keep making up builds to fill the ranks.

ATMs are a cop-out but without the ability to switch ammo it's the best solution other than 'choose which type of ATM you want.'

MRMs should actual work very well for this game as long as the spread isn't bat-#### crazy.

Stealth armor will be interesting if it also cloaks your thermal signature like in the fluff considering how often we use Thermal in this game. The Spooky Atlas would be even Spookier! Too bad my Griffin already runs hot.

Edited by Steel Raven, 15 March 2017 - 09:14 PM.

[Reno Blade]

In my original post (see also signature), I had set the lasers to the following values for cd/beam:

SL 1.5s cd, 1.0s beam
ML 2.0s cd, 1.4s beam
LL 2.5s cd, 1.8s beam
ERLL 2.5s cd, 2.0s beam

cerSL 1.5s cd, 1.2s beam
cerML 2.0s cd, 1.6s beam
cerLL 2.5s cd, 2.2s beam

cHSL 2.0s cd, 1.5s beam
cHML 2.5s cd, 2.0s beam
cHLL 3.0s cd, 2.6s beam

SP, 1.0s cd, 0.7s beam
MP 1.5s cd, 1.0s beam
LP 2.0s cd, 1.3s beam

cSP 1.2s cd, 0.9s beam
cMP 1.7s cd, 1.2s beam
cLP 2.2s cd, 1.6s beam

[50 50]

Looking at the ATMs and how it looks like they will be implemented, I think they will be quite an interesting and versatile weapon.
It's like they will fire multi-staged missiles so I am curious if they will have some sort of animation for that.

Otherwise being able to engage an enemy out at extreme range and have that damage improve as the target gets closer is really no different from any other weapon. It just seems like the damage curve will look a little different. Effectively it is a combo SRM, MRM, LRM launcher.

The heavy and micro lasers will work nicely for mechs that are hard point/critical space poor and tonnage rich or vice versa.

It will be nice to have the additional options.

[Koniving]

Sidefire, on 14 March 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

Well, If PGI does them right one heavy laser should incur a ghost heat penalty for firing to reflect the fact that in the lore, and in CBT, they generated so much heat that it was vented into the mech's systems and caused all sorts of issues with the electronics, HUD, targeting systems, etc. and since MWO doesn't have any heat penalties other than ghost heat, that's kinda the only option. The other issue is the fact that a HML builds up almost as much heat when fired as an IS LL, so you're gonna need a lot of heat sinks. On the other hand, you'll melt basically anything just by looking at it funny if you can fire off an alpha strike without overheating and killing yourself.

While what I am about to say is meaningless here... Imagine if PGI took tabletop for what it says it is. A summary of what could happen in 10 seconds. Then took weapon categories as stated, ratings of performance over time. Meaning a medium laser would do about 5 damage on average in 10 seconds for 3 heat. ACs based on the full ruleset could be fired for two ratings within 10 seconds at extremely high risk compared to uacs. A rotary would have 6 times the standard rate (or 3 times the rushed rate) of fire. In all cases the FLD would be replaced with variations of damage over time. Lasers with 0.1 to 0.2 second zaps for partial damage (culminating to several shots to get the full rating) and others with more like a star trek phaser in nature with full second FLD beams (so a single full second shot does the entire rating of damage and heat).

In this case an FLD PPC would fit the definition of what it is referred to as... A mech buster. A siege cannon. Even against two medium lasers of the same potential damage or an AC/10, their DPS style mechanics over the heavy hitting PPC or limb severing Gauss (1x armor 1x structure) makes the PPC superior and worth the heat on every way in terms of fluff and if tabletop didn't summarize damage it too would really emphasize the utility of PPCs.

The AC/10, as mentioned above through the rules could make up for its weight by churning an extra rating of damage within that 10 seconds. Coupled with its significantly lower heat (in a system with a strict to near-strict 30 heat shutdown, 80% heat weapons safety lockout [which the override allows you to use the weapons anyway, meaning override does not prevent or circumvent a shutdown], and a minimum shut down time of reaching 46.67% heat (the range of heat of 14 units, the required amount to be able to power up in Battletech), the cool running nature of ACs are beyond incomparable.

In the end, every weapon, every piece of equipment has its purpose. (Flamers would be to help shut down hot builds, without the escalating nonsense of PGI's version. MGs would be valued for their lack of heat as backup weaponry. Though even better would be to have infantry consumables and vehicles into the mix.)

Now... Imagine a heavy laser in this context. Hefty, front loaded to two shot deliverance of damage. Sure hefty amounts of heat. A long cooldown time. But the devastation it would cause... 16 damage FLD from the Heavy Large, even if split into two shots for one rating in 10 seconds, that's 8 damage per shot. Sure it's hotter than sin with 18 heat (or 9 heat if split into two shots for one rating). But dayamn!

Edited by Koniving, 19 March 2017 - 03:57 AM.

[A_Velociraptor]

Here is my theory on how RL will work, seeing as how they have 10,15,20 variations it will be a click to launch a single rocket. So with a RL 10 you get 10 clicks and each rocket deals damage. So say you have 2 RL 20's now on the same weapon group each RL fires a single rocket per click. RL might also not have a cooldown making them very good at close range burst damage but with terrible accuracy and damage spreading. RL will probably be the most useful on mechs like the Locust and Commando with the missile slots. As they will most likely be .5 ton for the RL 10 and 1 ton for the 20 not too sure about the 15 if any TT people want to correct me feel free to. so We might see a lot of locusts running around with dual RL 20's and a ML or LL. Commando's with 3 RL 20's and a MPL rockets are very good on lights whereas I think MRM's will be the main weapon on heavies and assaults with only 1 Missile hardpoint.

[Tesunie]

Koniving, on 17 March 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

While what I am about to say is meaningless here... Imagine if PGI took tabletop for what it says it is. A summary of what could happen in 10 seconds. Then took weapon categories as stated, ratings of performance over time. Meaning a medium laser would do about 5 damage on average in 10 seconds for 3 heat. ACs based on the full ruleset could be fired for two ratings within 10 seconds at extremely high risk compared to uacs. A rotary would have 6 times the standard rate (or 3 times the rushed rate) of fire. In all cases the FLD would be replaced with variations of damage over time. Lasers with 0.1 to 0.2 second zaps and some more star trek phase in nature with full second FLD beams. In this case an FLD PPC would fit the definition of what it is referred to as... A mech buster. A siege cannon. Even against two medium lasers of the same potential damage or an AC, their DPS style mechanics over the heavy hitting PPC or limb severing Gauss (1x armor 1x structure) makes the PPC superior and worth the heat on every way in terms of fluff and if tabletop didn't summarize damage it too would really emphasize the utility of PPCs.

Now... Imagine a heavy laser in this context. Hefty, front loaded to two shot deliverance of damage. Sure hefty amounts of heat. A long cooldown time. But the devastation it would cause...

I've kinda been wanting that system for some time now. Have it where weapons deal their TT heat and damage over 10 seconds, not in a single shot. AKA: A med laser that deal 5 damage and 3 heat could be rigged to shoot 3 times in 10 seconds. Each shot would produce 1 heat and 1.6 damage, thus it would equal 3 heat and ~5 damage if shot as soon as it possibly could.

PPCs could then shoot twice in 10 seconds, dealing 5 damage per trigger pull and 5 heat (if I'm recalling correctly). A Gauss may be a weapon that deal full 15 damage and 1 heat per trigger pull, but could only shoot once every 10 seconds. (Sniper vs brawler styled builds. Sniper shoot less often, but deal more bust damage, were as brawlers shoot more often, but has far more DPS styled damage.)

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 17 March 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

I've kinda been wanting that system for some time now. Have it where weapons deal their TT heat and damage over 10 seconds, not in a single shot. AKA: A med laser that deal 5 damage and 3 heat could be rigged to shoot 3 times in 10 seconds. Each shot would produce 1 heat and 1.6 damage, thus it would equal 3 heat and ~5 damage if shot as soon as it possibly could.

PPCs could then shoot twice in 10 seconds, dealing 5 damage per trigger pull and 5 heat (if I'm recalling correctly). A Gauss may be a weapon that deal full 15 damage and 1 heat per trigger pull, but could only shoot once every 10 seconds. (Sniper vs brawler styled builds. Sniper shoot less often, but deal more bust damage, were as brawlers shoot more often, but has far more DPS styled damage.)

Indeed. It also inspires specific roles too. Rapid firing rates on lighter weapons allow them to get into the thick of things to pepper damage while a Gauss or PPC is slow to fire but a nasty heavy hitter that has crippling effects when they hit but once fired they give away their location. Of course multiple Gauss and PPCs help but even then you'd never want to fire them at the same time because then you would have nothing.

Also on the PPC, that is where weapon variants can come in. Some could do the full damage in single shots and some could split it up.

Also i had set the baseline for Battletech's 40 unique (of over 60+) variants of standard Inner Sphere medium laser. 3 shots at approximately 1.67 damage each. From there basic brand name variants could go up and down in base potential damage and other factors. Not on my computer right now but I have a list of many factors that could be used to modify a baseline against a pentagon of features (which will make sure the variants will be balanced with each other for every gain you have is a trade off). I have a list for each of the three primary categories and a few sub categories (such as artillery).

It may be another year before there is enough to share in video form but I am working on showing off such a vision of how I think Battletech's should be realized in a Sim (as an animation). Even worked out control schemes for advanced techniques like turning the mech's head (tied to taking control of the arm and any pivotable torso weaponry in that direction too) and directing infantry. I have also worked on how to allow joysticks VR and mice to fight on balanced near equal terms (each with advantages and disadvantages).

Most important though to help reduce the allure of alpha strikes is a sub hitbox system which I've conjured up that divides the health and armor of each section (in a logical fashion; things that look armored will be heavier armored than those that don't) so that a single hit, no matter how strong, can never completely decimate the 'Mech (except on the cockpit or a serious blow to the engine and, of course, an ammo explosion). In fact by design, in most cases a devastating hit from something like an alpha strike would largely be wasted in a PPFLD scenario since yes, you would punch a hole and that hole would be limited to one sub-section of say the left torso and lets say you shot the 'Mech while it was shoulder-peeking over a hill... Well a hit to the torso, even with a full pierce through the front and out the back, isn't anywhere near the engine. You probably cut off ammo feed to the arm, sure, or maybe weakened the myomer muscles that control the arm. But that's about it. (Things to worry about are submerging in deep water with a punctured limb or torso and the vacuum of space)

Anyway if you wanna exchange ideas on it feel free. I love grinding out details it helps me to see and fix flaws

Edited by Koniving, 18 March 2017 - 02:36 AM.