76 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

WarHippy, on 16 March 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

Yeah, the question on how they work is certainly going to be the biggest factor. Like you said if they work like SRMs they will be hard to use at range, but 90 per ton would probably be sufficient given how lethal they would be at shorter ranges. However, I don't see that happening. If they go the SSRM route I will be very disappointed. I hope they go with more of a LRM mechanic on them, but I fear 90 per ton would be a little too limiting depending on the circumstances.

Hilariously, ATM might give the SNV-A a reason to exist. You should be able to fit 4x ATM9 (mimicing the mech it was based off of, the SNV-2), sufficient ammo IF they go 90/ton, and 4 ERMLas. No jump jets, though. A more efficient ammo per ton would also allow others mechs with limited missile hardpoint options to maximize their damage potential given their low hardpoint count. ATM12 just cannot be boated due to their size and weight, but if you only have one hardpoint, it would be a great option to consider.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 16 March 2017 - 09:57 AM.

[RestosIII]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 March 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Trade? ill give you 600ATMs 200 of each Type, in return i want 600NewPPCs 200LPPC 200SNPPC & 200HPPC,
our friends at Diamond Shark will handle the transaction, @RestosIII do you have the Paperwork ready?

On it.

[Andi Nagasia]

RestosIII, on 16 March 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

On it.

@RestosIII good Man,

[Snowbluff]

Some good analysis. Larger ammo counts would probably be allowed because the launcher is already heavier. 90 it probably is.

[Andi Nagasia]

i would rather higher ammo counts for higher cooldowns,

[A Man In A Can]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 March 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

Will they function like LRMs (though with a flatter trajectory)? Out of the options, I actually prefer this one, as with Artemis, they will attempt to seek center mass when you have LOS on the target.

However, I think 90/ton ammo is a sweet spot. I'd be concerned about eroding its sacrifices for flexibility if we went to 105 or 120 rounds per ton.

This combo seems to be most logical for ATMs considering their range profile, their linear damage scaling and the increased tonnage per launcher with Artemis functionality. It gives it flexibility at the same time it doesn't invalidate the specialized options.

PGI, make it so.

[Cementi]

Without significant cooldown times 90 per ton is too efficient. It will completely replace SRM's and will likely replace LRM's though not for the people who like to stand at the back and lob missiles for 10 mins.

[MechaBattler]

There's also the question of velocity. Are they going to be as fast as SRMs? Slow as LRMs? Somewhere in between? Multi stage velocity?

[RestosIII]

MechaBattler, on 16 March 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

There's also the question of velocity. Are they going to be as fast as SRMs? Slow as LRMs? Somewhere in between? Multi stage velocity?

TBH I'm hoping they have multi-stage velocity, with it getting faster the farther they fly. Don't know if PGI can code that though.

[Khobai]

If it does 3/2/1 damage and average damage is 2

then we can assume its 90 ammo per ton (180/2 = 90)

no min range, 810 max range, damage starts at 3 per missile and decreases linearly over distance

Quote

Without significant cooldown times 90 per ton is too efficient. It will completely replace SRM's and will likely replace LRM's though not for the people who like to stand at the back and lob missiles for 10 mins.

90 is fine for ATMs and exactly where it should be.

ATMs weigh substantially more than SRMs so they wont replace SRMs in brawling builds.
ATMs cant indirect fire like LRMs so they wont replace LRMs

However SRM ammo needs to be increased by ~50% like other missiles got. SRMs should get bumped upto 144 ammo per ton (144 because its divisible by both 6 and 4). Its wrong that SRMs never got that ammo increase.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 12:03 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Cementi, on 16 March 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Without significant cooldown times 90 per ton is too efficient. It will completely replace SRM's and will likely replace LRM's though not for the people who like to stand at the back and lob missiles for 10 mins.

im just saying i dont think its very fair to base a weapon whos Range Ranges from 315-945,
to base it on the Range at 315, when most engagements happen around 300-600m,
-
if they do make the Ammo 60, no one would use ATMs at any range over 315,
PGI may as well just set the Range from 0-315 and give us another Launcher with 2Dam/Missile and 180Ammo/Ton,

[Snowbluff]

Cementi, on 16 March 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Without significant cooldown times 90 per ton is too efficient. It will completely replace SRM's and will likely replace LRM's though not for the people who like to stand at the back and lob missiles for 10 mins.

Cooldown times would be cruel. I expect chain firing and ghost heat instead.

[Khobai]

Assuming ATM12 weighs 7 tons and does 36 damage at short range, 24 damage at medium range, and 12 damage at long range (810m). And also ATMs get free built-in artemis too so presumably it wont stack with artemis since its already built-in.

three CSRM6s+artemis weigh 7.5 tons and do 36 damage at short range with a 4.0 cooldown

so obviously we can expect the ATM12 to have a cooldown longer than 4.0. Probably around 5.0-6.0. With a long cooldown like that they wont compete with SRMs at close range for dps. And they already dont compete with LRMs at long range because they cant indirect fire.

it seems like theyre going to function similar to streaks but with longer range. theyll mostly be useful at short to medium range and not so useful at long range because no indirect fire.

Streakcrows are probably gonna switch over to ATMcrows for the longer range. The cooldown will still be long but theyll get substantially increased range.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 12:17 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Snowbluff, on 16 March 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

Cooldown times would be cruel. I expect chain firing and ghost heat instead.

i can imagine it will be like LRMs, that with im assuming 20% Longer Cooldown,
(no more than 2xATM12)(no more than 2xATM9)(no more than 3xATM6)(no more than 4xATM3)

[Cementi]

I am pretty miserly with my missile ammo consumption I guess. I really do not fire too often unless I know I am gonna get hit. I also do not like to have any missile system as my primary weapon. So my perceptions might be skewed somewhat.

My experience in TT though says ATM trumps LRM's and SRM's hands down. If you make the ammo only 10 rounds per ton less than SRM's there simply is not enough extra weight in the ATM launchers to account for that 3 point per missile vs the 2 point per missile.

Unless they buff SRM ammo I really cannot see myself ever using something other than ATM's and that is even considering 60 shots per ton. Bump it to 90, or as some said 120 and it would easily replace all missile weapons systems, at least for me.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

ATM12 weighs 7 tons and does 36 damage at short range, 24 damage at medium range, and 12 damage at long range. ATMs get free built-in artemis too so presumably it wont stack with artemis since its already built-in.

three CSRM6s+artemis weigh 7.5 tons and do 36 damage at short range with a 4.0 cooldown

so obviously we can expect the ATM12 to have a cooldown longer than 4.0. Probably around 5.0.

one can Guess,
(ATM3= 3.5sec Cooldown)(ATM6= 4sec Cooldown)(ATM9= 4.5sec Cooldown)(ATM12= 5sec Cooldown)

[Khobai]

Quote

My experience in TT though says ATM trumps LRM's and SRM's hands down

except indirect fire is a lot more important in MWO. not being able to indirect fire is a huge downside of ATMs vs LRMs. So LRMs are not going to get trumped.

neither are SRMs because SRMs will still do far more dps for brawling builds. theyre also dumbfire which means unaffected by ECM at short range.

the only thing ATMs will replace is Streaks because Streaks already have long cooldowns like ATMs will, but ATMs will offer better range than Streaks. ATMs are basically a direct upgrade to Streaks.

Quote

Unless they buff SRM ammo

Well like I said before they need to increase SRM ammo to 144 per ton. They gave all other missiles +50% so its only fair if SRMs get the same approximate increase.

90 per ton is where ATMs need to be. Less than that would make them almost not worth using.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Cementi, on 16 March 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

I am pretty miserly with my missile ammo consumption I guess. I really do not fire too often unless I know I am gonna get hit. I also do not like to have any missile system as my primary weapon. So my perceptions might be skewed somewhat.

My experience in TT though says ATM trumps LRM's and SRM's hands down. If you make the ammo only 10 rounds per ton less than SRM's there simply is not enough extra weight in the ATM launchers to account for that 3 point per missile vs the 2 point per missile.

Unless they buff SRM ammo I really cannot see myself ever using something other than ATM's and that is even considering 60 shots per ton. Bump it to 90, or as some said 120 and it would easily replace all missile weapons systems, at least for me.

well remember SRMs are dumb Fire, they dont Track, also they work even if you are under Enemy ECM,
with that ECM counters ATM Launchers completely, ATM + Enemy ECM = ATM paperweight,
LRMs can fire indirectly where as ATMs have no indirect fire capability, they are LOS only,
-
LRMs and SRMs still have Advantages over ATMs they are also likely to have Better Ammo Efficiency,
which is why im against ATMs having any less than 100Ammo/Ton, it hurts using ATMs to fire Mid/Long Range,

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

the only thing ATMs will replace is Streaks because Streaks already have long cooldowns like ATMs will, but ATMs will offer better range than Streaks. ATMs are basically a direct upgrade to Streaks.

i see streaks still being used as how they work(targeting a Mechs Bones)
i see ATMs as acting more like LRMs and aiming for center mass, also Velocity and Spread are Huge Factors,
if all ATMs have the Spread of LRMs(No Artimis) & the Speed of such thats a huge Penalty,

[A Man In A Can]

Cool down and velocity for ATMs I expect will be right in the middle between SRMs and LRMs making them the flexible generalist option as they were meant to be. SRMs will remain light tonnage fast firing and traveling brawling rockets, and LRMs will remain the best at range due to their higher flight path allowing indirect fire and more missiles downrange for the tonnage (ATM 6 vs LRM 15, ATM 9 vs LRM 20). ATMs can provide the flat-firing faster-flying ranged LOS homing option for those that wished LRMs to be so.

[Khobai]

Quote

ATM + Enemy ECM = ATM paperweight,

well thats what active probes are for.

and honestly they should give clans bloodhound active probe as an upgrade to beagle active probe.

if theyre giving stealth armor to IS then clans should get bloodhound active probe to help cut through the stealth. stealth armor is bad news unless clans get a better counter for it.

Quote

Cool down and velocity for ATMs I expect will be right in the middle between SRMs and LRMs

yeah not gonna happen. we already went through the comparison, the ATM12 needs a cooldown of 5-6 seconds to be balanced. The price you pay for tactical flexibility is a longer cooldown.

Its probably going to be at least this if not longer:
ATM3 = 3.5 cooldown
ATM6 = 4.0 cooldown
ATM9 = 4.5 cooldown
ATM12 = 5.0 cooldown

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 12:34 PM.