49 replies to this topic

[Six-Pack]

Did the math according to Kana's table: if we buff IS FF to 18% and 10 slots, and IS LFF to 10% and 6 slots, the Clan FF is still better by over 50% on top of better guns and DHS.

It's funny how IS FF is obsolete, can't fit a dual AC10 build with it simply because there are not enough critical slots. At 14 critical slots it directly competes wtih Endo and loses.

[TheArisen]

Test75Rus, on 14 April 2018 - 03:54 AM, said:

Did the math according to Kana's table: if we buff IS FF to 18% and 10 slots, and IS LFF to 10% and 6 slots, the Clan FF is still better by over 50% on top of better guns and DHS.

It's funny how IS FF is obsolete, can't fit a dual AC10 build with it simply because there are not enough critical slots. At 14 critical slots it directly competes wtih Endo and loses.

Pretty much. In TT & lore the reason for it was it's cheaper and easier to fix but MWO has neither of those aspects.

You could argue Clan FF is as good as IS Endo because it only takes 7 slots and saves about the same weight per slot taken.

[Nightbird]

25% 7 slot endo, reflective armor, reactive armor, heavy armor would also balance things. IS>superior at niches

[Brain Cancer]

Honestly? Wait till we get the next wave of tech improvements for the IS.

Things like XL Gyros and small cockpits that put more tonnage back into IS chassis without being available to Clan construction. Reflective and reactive armors that will end up the same space-eaters on both tech trees, too.

[TheArisen]

Yeah more new stuff would be good.

[Josh Seles]

Hi Arisen.
Don't forget about Endo-Composite structure.
Could be decent.

[Andi Nagasia]

i had an idea to balance out Ferro,
(Ferro Extra Armor Concept! Balancing Ferro!)

IS-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 12%, & takes up 14Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 24% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +24CT Armor(36Armor=1Ton)

IS-LightFerro reduced Armor Weight by 6%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 12% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +12CT Armor(34Armor=1Ton)

Clan-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 20%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 10% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +10CT Armor(38Armor=1Ton)

[TheArisen]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 April 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

i had an idea to balance out Ferro,
(Ferro Extra Armor Concept! Balancing Ferro!)

IS-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 12%, & takes up 14Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 24% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +24CT Armor(36Armor=1Ton)

IS-LightFerro reduced Armor Weight by 6%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 12% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +12CT Armor(34Armor=1Ton)

Clan-Ferro reduced Armor Weight by 20%, & takes up 7Crits,
it also Increases the Mechs Max Armor by 10% to make up for its Crit requirement,
(an 80Ton Assault(100CT Armor) could Equip +10CT Armor(38Armor=1Ton)

Yeah honestly FF is always the less valuable of the two unless you only have slot for Light FF.

[evilauthor]

TheArisen, on 14 April 2018 - 04:07 AM, said:

Pretty much. In TT & lore the reason for it was it's cheaper and easier to fix but MWO has neither of those aspects.

You could argue Clan FF is as good as IS Endo because it only takes 7 slots and saves about the same weight per slot taken.

Hell, "cheaper" didn't really exist in the TT game either unless you were roleplaying. For the players only interested in designing mechs and playing them in a purely tactical game, monetary cost is a non-existent factor.

The IS FF problem (ie, that it's meager 12% armor buff isn't worth 14 crit slots) has been puzzling ME almost since it was first introduced to the TT game decades ago. As others have said, taking up 14 slots makes it directly competing against Endo-Steel, and the weight savings of FF are nowhere near what ES gives back, even when you max out a mech's armor (and precious few canon designs max out their armor).

Even from a lore perspective, a 12% weight savings in armor simply isn't worth while IMO. In exchange for an additional ton or two (if you're lucky!) of additional ammo or equipment, or slightly thicker armor that doesn't appreciably increase a mech's survivability, you get a major logistics headache of needing to carry around a second type of armor for the mechs that use them. And do keep in mind that armor is THE most replaced part on any mech, even on milk run missions where you expect to overwhelm the opposition with zero casualties for your own side.

So, how much of a weight savings is needed to make FF competitive with ES? Well, a 100 ton mech saves 5 tons on internal structure with ES. A 100 ton mech also spends 19 tons to (nearly) max out its armor. To be competitive with ES, FF should reduce armor weight on a 100 mech by 5 tons, making maxed FF armor weigh 14 tons. That's a buff of about a 35.7 percent over standard armor.

[Brain Cancer]

evilauthor, on 15 April 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

Hell, "cheaper" didn't really exist in the TT game either unless you were roleplaying. For the players only interested in designing mechs and playing them in a purely tactical game, monetary cost is a non-existent factor.

The IS FF problem (ie, that it's meager 12% armor buff isn't worth 14 crit slots) has been puzzling ME almost since it was first introduced to the TT game decades ago. As others have said, taking up 14 slots makes it directly competing against Endo-Steel, and the weight savings of FF are nowhere near what ES gives back, even when you max out a mech's armor (and precious few canon designs max out their armor).

Even from a lore perspective, a 12% weight savings in armor simply isn't worth while IMO. In exchange for an additional ton or two (if you're lucky!) of additional ammo or equipment, or slightly thicker armor that doesn't appreciably increase a mech's survivability, you get a major logistics headache of needing to carry around a second type of armor for the mechs that use them. And do keep in mind that armor is THE most replaced part on any mech, even on milk run missions where you expect to overwhelm the opposition with zero casualties for your own side.

So, how much of a weight savings is needed to make FF competitive with ES? Well, a 100 ton mech saves 5 tons on internal structure with ES. A 100 ton mech also spends 19 tons to (nearly) max out its armor. To be competitive with ES, FF should reduce armor weight on a 100 mech by 5 tons, making maxed FF armor weigh 14 tons. That's a buff of about a 35.7 percent over standard armor.

It makes sense when you expect minmaxers to put every weight saver they can fit on their robot, with FF being diminishing returns.

Also, it served as an upgrade for vehicles and aerospace fighters, who lack the option of endosteel to begin with. Not everything is optimal for giant robots alone, but it's real easy for a lot of BT players to tunnel-vision in that regard.