19 replies to this topic

[Sandslice]

Just a question caused by our jumping 10 years into the future.

One of the catalysts of the FedCom Civil War was Katherine S-D (or Katrina Steiner, if you want to call her that) sabotaging Yvonne's psyche and popular support in the Davion half, while Victor was off leading Operation Bulldog...

...which was the Trial of Annihilation against Clan Smoke Jaguar, canonically completed when Victor was forced to personally execute ilKhan Lincoln Osis at the Great Refusal.

(As an amusing aside, Marik and ComStar both lost their matches in the Refusal, with the First Free Worlds Guards falling to the mistake of... chasing squirrels.)

But the real meat of the question is this: will it become impossible to be a Smoke Jaguar loyalist in the CW timeline, or will canon be ignored to save the kitties?

[Scout Derek]

MWOs universe is vastly different; clans won the three major battles of turk, so naturally, I would like to think bulldog never happened. (If you'd like to call MWOs universe lore)

Kind of like the timesplit theory; if the past is altered, some things never happen, some still do. in this case, clan Smoke Jaguar was never killed off, but the civil war still happened.

[Tordin]

Alternate history FTW!

[MNML86]

Scout Derek, on 17 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

MWOs universe is vastly different; clans won the three major battles of turk, so naturally, I would like to think bulldog never happened. (If you'd like to call MWOs universe lore)

Kind of like the timesplit theory; if the past is altered, some things never happen, some still do. in this case, clan Smoke Jaguar was never killed off, but the civil war still happened.

Of Course the clans would win in MWO. IS were never allowed to gang rush them. Imagine a two-three IS regiments rushing a clan cluster or if every match was a clan binary (10 mechs) vs an IS company (12 mechs).

MWO IS were never allowed to use it's canon larger numbers against canon clan superior tech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Clan SMOKED Jaguars.

Enjoy life in the History Books, kitties!

[Ghogiel]

CSJ will probably still exist in MWO.

[Scout Derek]

MNML86, on 17 March 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

Of Course the clans would win in MWO. IS were never allowed to gang rush them. Imagine a two-three IS regiments rushing a clan cluster or if every match was a clan binary (10 mechs) vs an IS company (12 mechs).

MWO IS were never allowed to use it's canon larger numbers against canon clan superior tech.

At one point IS actually was winning against Clans in MWO.... but then PGI nerfed them

[meteorol]

In MWOs lore, CSJ implodes faster than they can be beaten... LUL

[Kanil]

Scout Derek, on 17 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

MWOs universe is vastly different; clans won the three major battles of turk, so naturally, I would like to think bulldog never happened. (If you'd like to call MWOs universe lore)

Kind of like the timesplit theory; if the past is altered, some things never happen, some still do. in this case, clan Smoke Jaguar was never killed off, but the civil war still happened.

How can the Civil War still happen if the FedCom never existed in the first place?

[Scout Derek]

Kanil, on 17 March 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

How can the Civil War still happen if the FedCom never existed in the first place?

"The Federated Commonwealth was the union of the Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns.....In 3020, Archon Katrina Steiner of the Lyran Commonwealth issued a "Peace Proposal" to all of the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere; only First Prince Hanse Davion of the Federated Suns responded, and the two states began a long-running dialogue. In 3020 the two Successor States signed the FedCom Accords, a treaty which formalized military, scientific and economic exchange between the two states."

It happened way back in 3020.... so yeah, Civil War will still happen.

[Mystere]

I say kill them off!

[dervishx5]

If you want to make your head canon feel any better:

There are Jaguars that survived the encounter. Quite a few. Some became mercenaries, some became members of houses or comstar, some joined other clans. Some even become THE JAGUAR. And in some people's minds it's cooler to be a survivor of a dead clan carrying on its legacy rather than just a boring ol' clan.

[Kanil]

Scout Derek, on 17 March 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

It happened way back in 3020.... so yeah, Civil War will still happen.

It happened way back in 3020... in BT lore. But clearly not in MWO lore, as they've been fighting one another the entire time.

Edit: Right, forgot CW4 happened. So not the entire time, but they've never been presented as a unified faction in MWO. So why would "what happened in MWO" prevent a Bulldog, but still allow a Civil War?

Edited by Kanil, 17 March 2017 - 01:09 PM.

[Novakaine]

Clan Smoked Kitties

[Navy Sixes]

Sandslice, on 17 March 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

One of the catalysts of the FedCom Civil War was Katherine S-D (or Katrina Steiner, if you want to call her that) sabotaging Yvonne's psyche and popular support in the Davion half, while Victor was off leading Operation Bulldog...

Another catalyst for the FedCom Civil War was the inception of the Federated Commonwealth, which never happened in MW:O community warfare. There has NEVER been any alliance between the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth. The Davion and Steiner factions fought each other in CW as long as they were allowed. The Federated Commonwealth has never appeared on any CW map, no FedCom livery has been offered for our mechs, and no member of the community has ever been given the opportunity to sport a FedCom banner.

While this latest version of CW --tentatively known as "The Battle of the Buckets"-- did not allow these two factions to fight, it didn't allow any of the other IS factions to fight each other, either.

My point is that as far as lore goes, the fate of Clan Smoke Jaguar is just one of many problems this timeline advance has.

Just give us our new toys and take our money. That's all anyone cares about around here.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 17 March 2017 - 01:30 PM.

[Mole]

Clan Smoke Jaguar was annihilated, you say? Let me introduce you to alternative facts...

[Jay Leon Hart]

1. Annihilate Clan Smoke Jaguar
2. Replace with Clan Nova Cat
3. Release the Nova Cat

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Personally I would for the sake of sanity do a partial hold on to BT's lore. Comstar seeing the IS failing repeatedly to stop the Clan's step in themselves as they did in lore and through their own Battle of Tukayyid causing the cease fire we know in lore. Due to the IS ******* up so many times to do this themselves they couldn't bolster enough forces to proceed into Operation Bulldog and Operation Serpent. Or at least not successfully. At this point we have the Clan Occupied Zone as it is today with a ceasefire between clan and IS while the IS tears itself apart, for the most part.

So this point Nova Cat's beat Smoke Jag's in a trial of possession for their IS holdings then move to the IS and side with the new Star League and Smoke Jaguar's hold onto their territory in the Clan Homeworlds and in fury of being screwed over have a trial of annihilation against Clan Nova Cats and take their holdings in Clan Homeworlds and starting a Clan on Clan War. During this time Clan Ghost Bear as with canon has also moved to their holdings in the IS and given the finger to the Crusader Clans. Clan Wolf splits and we get Wolf in Exile (merc unit, not a new faction, so decals is all) and Crusader Clan Wolf siding with Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Hells Horses, and Clan Smoke Jaguar against Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Smoke Jaguar, Clan Snow Raven, and Clan Coyote and the clans get their Refusal war and get to murder one another while the IS gets it's Civil war and murder one another. If PGI doesn't want to add Snow Raven and Coyote into the mix, just throw the FRR and Kurita at the Refusal War on the side of Nova Cats and Ghost Bear.

In short, Smoke Jaguars keep living, we sort of follow lore, but respect the accomplishments of players in CW. We also get Clan vs Clan and IS vs IS as people have wanted for a while. Throw in weekly Crusader Clans vs IS phases for the sake of mixing it up and some like Pure Clan vs Pure IS.

Bonus to doing Crusader vs Warden+IS with Wolf, Jade Falcon, Hells Horses, and Smoke Jaguars vs FRR, Kurrita, Ghost Bear, and Nova Cats would let us have Pure Clan vs Clan+IS. Would be interesting and imbalanced as hell, but, interesting.

[Sixpack]

Mystere, on 17 March 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I say kill them off!

Hm, OP bulldog was to destroy the strongest clan. Which while you could make an argument for concerning in game stats we all know that clan mercenary rises and falls by those that decide to make it their temporary residence. Otherwise CSJ would be competing for the bottom spot with Steiner.

In other words: It's turkey season~

[Mystere]

Kanil, on 17 March 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

It happened way back in 3020... in BT lore. But clearly not in MWO lore, as they've been fighting one another the entire time.

Edit: Right, forgot CW4 happened. So not the entire time, but they've never been presented as a unified faction in MWO. So why would "what happened in MWO" prevent a Bulldog, but still allow a Civil War?

There is no such thing as MWO lore, only abominations. <shrugs>

Sixpack, on 17 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

Hm, OP bulldog was to destroy the strongest clan. Which while you could make an argument for concerning in game stats we all know that clan mercenary rises and falls by those that decide to make it their temporary residence. Otherwise CSJ would be competing for the bottom spot with Steiner.

In other words: It's turkey season~

I hate turkeys! Burn them, I say.