22 replies to this topic

[Xhaleon]

Just thought I'd bring up something about the upcoming Rocket Launchers because it definitely something the Piranha needs to think about before release.

Description of MRMs in the Civil War Update page: "One shot launchers that fire unguided, low damage rockets. Very low tonnage per launcher."

They normally function as gimped one-shot MRMs at a very light weight; 1 damage per missile, shorter ranged and unguided so they suffer an accuracy penalty. Accuracy aside, the amount of damage they can do on the tabletop is decent enough for their weight, but still very far below every other reusable launcher in the system. They still generate almost as much heat as an equivalent MRM.

So the problem now is that in MWO we have doubled HP (armor/structure) on all of our mechs for the sake of gameplay, that's not even accounting for all the quirks and future skill nodes. This poses a problem for RLs in that their effective value is now cut in half from its already meager position.

For RLs to work in MWO they absolutely have to deal more than 1 damage per missile. Perhaps 2, 3 or even 4 damage may be reasonable given that we usually fight 12 other mechs at a time. The straight-from-canon concept idea that they posted on the Update page needs to be avoided or else they will become filler items on the same level as CASE.

40 or 60 damage from a single RL-20 might sound like much, but it only works once and if it uses a stream-launch system like the Clan LRM (maybe MRM too?) then it would be possible to spread damage around on reaction. Still devastating and may feel "unfair" when a player gets blown to smithereens instantly, but it only works once. RLs have to be able to do something different from the standard launchers in order to be worth the trouble.

What do you guys think?

Edited by Xhaleon, 17 March 2017 - 09:09 PM.

[FupDup]

No. A 1.5 ton weapon dealing 40+ damage with one shot is absolutely insane.

Rocket Launchers in general should have been left out of MWO. They promote a very frustrating if not toxic playstyle where people load up on them, instakill one enemy mech, and then have no weapons for the rest of the match. It's basically like the 11 ERPPC Dire Star mech, but with massively lower tonnage requirements.

Weapons built around being used only one single time in a match are not worth the hassle of trying to balance. Too strong and they make the game horribly unfun (because random instakills and suicide-bomber teammates), too weak and nobody uses them.


The other option would be for PGI to do what MekTek did in MW4 and make RL's not be one-shot launchers anymore. The civil war page description already tells us that this will never happen, though.

Edited by FupDup, 17 March 2017 - 09:40 PM.

[MechaBattler]

What FupDup said pretty much.

I think given what they said about low damage. They intend for them to be a filler option. if you have a missile slot and a little spare tonnage. You toss it in as your hail Mary shot.

Otherwise the only way I see them being higher damage is the spread being so bad you can't one shot things no matter how many you have. But I doubt it.

I would much rather have had a different weapon system.

[Xhaleon]

FupDup, on 17 March 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

Weapons built around being used only one single time in a match are not worth the hassle of trying to balance. Too strong and they make the game horribly unfun (because random instakills and suicide-bomber teammates), too weak and nobody uses them.

If it isn't doing more damage then its better to either leave it out as you said (I sort of agree) or if they put it in at 1 damage per missile then nobody will use it. Better to take an extra heatsink than to try and stuff it into a spare M hardpoint for just that one occasion where you need an extra 20 damage.

And again, it may be damage that is spread out due to a stream launch which will further degrade its worth.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 17 March 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

The other option would be for PGI to do what MekTek did in MW4 and make RL's not be one-shot launchers anymore. The civil war page description already tells us that this will never happen, though.

Nah, not only PGI stated that every thing is subject to change, they also have their trump card of "That was our position at that time".

[MechaBattler]

Even worse is on mechs with missile launchers that add to the mech's hitbox. Unless they fall off after you fire them. It's just making you easier to hit.

[Pariah Devalis]

I've said it before. The only way Rocket Launchers even make sense in MWO is if they can be equipped anywhere except legs, if there are weight and free crits available, regardless of hardpoint availability. For example, have nothing but energy hardpoints, but have half a ton and one crit free? Slap a Rocket Launcher there.

The game's built in limit of no more than 16 weapons (including AMS) would restrict loading up on enough of them to function as a primary weapon system, anyways.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 March 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[Xhaleon]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2017 - 10:20 PM, said:

The game's built in limit of no more than 16 weapons (including AMS) would restrict loading up on enough of them to function as a primary weapon system, anyways.

But what would be the ghost heat limit? FupDup's concern about MissileStars could still happen with that amount of weapons. Its enough for two big guns like LPLs and then 14 RL-20s. Still not as efficient and viable as regular launchers at 1 damage per missile, but its still 280 damage.

[Kaeb Odellas]

You could give them high damage, but rockets launch one at a time. Kind of like a rocket machine gun.

[Juodas Varnas]

I'd rather not have the Rocket Launchers in the game at all.

Unless they came with the Goliath-2H

[Dogstar]

They should be a type of consumable

[Snazzy Dragon]

They should not be added at all. They are either too strong for their one shot or not enough to be worth taking for that one shot.

[Zordicron]

IMO they should be very light, lower on heat, and dmg, and crits. A decent cooldown, so they can be used like a type of SRM. Give them ammo. Give them a unique launcher gfx, maybe like a CLRM but with red instead of blue...

Function in game: used as an actual viable system on very light mechs as a type of lower dmg SRM, filler on heavy mechs as a way to use that last bit of tonnage on something besides extra leg armor when there is heat available.

Think more, light ppc->ppc->heavy ppc where there is a progression in weight, dmg, etc.

Something like rockets->MRM/SRM(range vs dmg here)->SSRM

Something like that gives the rockets a niche and doesn't introduce a wildly different game mechanic PGI will fail at balancing. We would have light, low dmg, unguided rockets, heavyier MRM and SRM, but still unguided, but with trades between dmg and range, and then guided SSRM(and guided LRM but those feel unrelated balance wise here)

Up for grabs in this: ammo counts/ton and range. IMO range should be the typical SRM range, but something between MRM and SRM is not out of the question IMO as it would allow more flexability in choice on very light mechs.

[Monkey Lover]

FupDup, on 17 March 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

No. A 1.5 ton weapon dealing 40+ damage with one shot is absolutely insane.

Rocket Launchers in general should have been left out of MWO. They promote a very frustrating if not toxic playstyle where people load up on them, instakill one enemy mech, and then have no weapons for the rest of the match. It's basically like the 11 ERPPC Dire Star mech, but with massively lower tonnage requirements.

Weapons built around being used only one single time in a match are not worth the hassle of trying to balance. Too strong and they make the game horribly unfun (because random instakills and suicide-bomber teammates), too weak and nobody uses them.


The other option would be for PGI to do what MekTek did in MW4 and make RL's not be one-shot launchers anymore. The civil war page description already tells us that this will never happen, though.

How often has a direstar effect your games? I have only seen 1 and it was my own unit member. I understand where you're going here but I don't think this will happen enough to be an issuse. I do see them being used in mechs with 1 or 2 missile hard points.


I would be happen with 2 dmg. Just think k of srms boats even with 80 alpha they don't kill with one shot.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 18 March 2017 - 07:07 AM.

[cazidin]

Xhaleon, on 17 March 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

But what would be the ghost heat limit? FupDup's concern about MissileStars could still happen with that amount of weapons. Its enough for two big guns like LPLs and then 14 RL-20s. Still not as efficient and viable as regular launchers at 1 damage per missile, but its still 280 damage.

"MissileStars"? That's a mediocre™ name! Why not... ROCKET-STARS™!

[kapusta11]

FupDup, on 17 March 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

No. A 1.5 ton weapon dealing 40+ damage with one shot is absolutely insane.

Rocket Launchers in general should have been left out of MWO. They promote a very frustrating if not toxic playstyle where people load up on them, instakill one enemy mech, and then have no weapons for the rest of the match. It's basically like the 11 ERPPC Dire Star mech, but with massively lower tonnage requirements.

Weapons built around being used only one single time in a match are not worth the hassle of trying to balance. Too strong and they make the game horribly unfun (because random instakills and suicide-bomber teammates), too weak and nobody uses them.


The other option would be for PGI to do what MekTek did in MW4 and make RL's not be one-shot launchers anymore. The civil war page description already tells us that this will never happen, though.

It depends. cGauss with 3t of ammo does 30 total damage per ton. RL20 will do only 13 damage per ton and will have a missile spread. In the end you devote certain amount of tonnage to do certain amount of damage, RLs are no different from other weapons in that sense.

Plus you can counter RL instagib with Ghost Heat.

Edited by kapusta11, 18 March 2017 - 07:42 AM.

[Elizander]

They can just increase the missile damage up from 1.0 to whatever they adjusted ammo to. For example the Gauss Rifle increased ammo from 8->10 shots per ton so we can just bump up Rocket Launcher damage to 1.25 damage per rocket and be done with it.

[Skanderborg]

Rocket launchers will only be an obscure thing that really doesnt fit.

Sure they could be useful , they shouldnt be the focus of any build.

[Hollow Earth]

the only way i can see them being useful is as filler that can be put on any hardpoint or multiple can be "stacked" on a single missile hardpoint.

whatever the case, i'm sure that the rocket launcher is really just here to bring in more canon mech variants that use the rocket launcher into the game roster. maybe the Marauder II 4H

[Karl Marlow]

I don't see these being used much. Even so there are a couple mechs I could see squeezing in of these in on just for a little initial umph. More useful as an afterthought than as a primary weapon choice.