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Regarding New Tech: What About The Arrow Iv?

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#1 Trashhead

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:10 AM

Just a short question:
Why aren't we getting Arrow IV Missiles with the new tech-Update?
http://www.sarna.net...ow_IV_Artillery
(To make it clear: I am not salty, just curious, since Arrow IV is available since 3044 for IS, and much longer for Clans).

As I understand it, there are probably 3 major issues:


1. Arrow IV takes up slots in the side-torso's AND in the arm (12 for clans, 15 for IS). I assume this can't be done with the current Game-Client... ?

Possible Solution:
Well, a "simple" update on the mechlab should do the trick here.


2. Tonnage to Damage-ratio is probably bad; very bad.
Arrow IV weighs up to 15 tons a and takes up up to 15 slots, while dealing "only" 20 damage.
And all that with only 5 Shots per ton, its like a homing-AC20-round.
How do you balance this weapon, especially when you end up in a map with to much cover to use this weapon effectively?
(If you worry about Arrow IV beeing OP on maps like Polar highlands when uses en mass, check point 3., where I ponder about balancing Arrow IV hit/miss wise).

Possible Solution:
While PGI could always up the ammo-count, this does not help in City-Style maps where you probably have NO chance to hit your target AT ALL.
If Arrow IV missiles would be able to fly very high and then head straight down when close to the target (provided a friendly tagger for the final approach), this might help a lot in making the weapon not completely useless in City-maps.


3. Arrow IV is probably hard to balance hit/miss-wise,
depending on what Ammo-Type PGI would implement, and in regards to AMS. Quoting Sarna here:
"Arrow IV launchers can be equipped with standard unguided area saturation missiles, causing massive damage to any unit within its 45-meter blast radius, or homing missiles which work in concert with forward units carrying Target Acquisition Gear to lessen collateral damage."

I assume PGI has no clue how to balance this - especially with AMS in mind, since AMS against LRM's will just reduce the numbers of incomming missiles, while Arrow IV consinsts of only ONE missile. You can either shoot it down or not, there is no reduction in firepower like with LRM's.... right? o_0


Possible Solution(s):
As a single Arrow IV missile can deal up to 20 damage, I think the best bet here would be to have the Arrow IV missiles work as area saturation missiles that can hit a mech (especially with TAG in use), resulting in damage dealt all over the target, much like with Clan ERPPC's.

AMS's firing at the missile will make it shift it's course up to the point where it can completely miss the target and hit the area near it, resulting in splash damage (so Arrow IV would not become TOTALLY useless when the enemy has lots and lots of AMS deployed).

If the Arrow IV missile would use multiple warheads, AMS could just destroy some of them to soften up the impact (like with LRM's), if the entire "AMS simply makes Arrow IV less accurate"-thing is impossible to implement or just not desired (if you prefer this solution over the accuracy-reduction solution, I leave it up to you why detonating a single warhead inside the Arrow IV missile would not blow up the rest of the warheads as well).

In short, I suggest to kind of mixing up the two available types of ammo and merge it into one, for balancing reasons.


So, PGI, why U no Arrow IV? Posted Image

@ fellow Mechwarriors: commence discussioin, I'd like to hear your points of view on that matter!

Trashhead, out. o7

P.S.: I am aware of the fact that most players would probably just use LRM's instead of Arrow IV, anyway.

#2 Milocinia

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:24 AM

I'm sorry but a weapon like the ArrowIV simply can't be balanced in MWO. I'm pretty confident it's never going to appear.

#3 Karl Marlow

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:49 AM

Why can't it be balanced for MWO. Its a slow missile that does 20 points of damage. Long range but requires a spotter and would likely have a slow rate 9f fire and be easily neutralized by ams.

If by can't be balanced you mean it is a weak system then I would direct you to the flamer or mg.

#4 Metus regem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:12 AM

View PostKarl Marlow, on 18 March 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Why can't it be balanced for MWO. Its a slow missile that does 20 points of damage. Long range but requires a spotter and would likely have a slow rate 9f fire and be easily neutralized by ams.

If by can't be balanced you mean it is a weak system then I would direct you to the flamer or mg.


Two words,

Blast
Radius

That 20 damage is everything with in 15m of the impact point, with another 10 damage to everything from 16m to 45m of the impact point. We've seen how PGI handled Long Tom artillery, do you really trust them to make Arrow IV correctly?

#5 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:14 AM

Sorry, but I don't think this particular weapon system should make it into MWO. It'd be fine and dandy for a PVE or Co-OP MW game, but in PvP it just presents too many balance issues.

#6 Karl Marlow

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:25 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 18 March 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:


Two words,

Blast
Radius

That 20 damage is everything with in 15m of the impact point, with another 10 damage to everything from 16m to 45m of the impact point. We've seen how PGI handled Long Tom artillery, do you really trust them to make Arrow IV correctly?


We are talking about the Arrow not a Long Tom. The Arrow fired directly doesn't splash. When fired like artillery it would splash much as a single round from an artillery strike splashes.

#7 Metus regem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:41 AM

View PostKarl Marlow, on 18 March 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:


We are talking about the Arrow not a Long Tom. The Arrow fired directly doesn't splash. When fired like artillery it would splash much as a single round from an artillery strike splashes.


Arrow IV is artillery, no matter how it fires, in TT it is launched during the artillery phase. Where it changes, is flight time depending on how far it is launched from. Arrow IV is also special in the fact that it does have a neculear warhead option.

#8 Adridos

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:49 AM

They can be implemented into a game and Mechwarrior Living Legends has successfully done so in the past.
However, it is very much a weapon that's unfit for an arena combat game like MW:O because getting hit by it hurts way too much (we're talking splash and all here) if you do it properly, or is made completely redundant by other weapon systems if you turn it into a simple fat LRM missile.

Posted Image

#9 dervishx5

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:03 AM

If you want a big missile that does a lot of damage with one hit as opposed to a bunch of missiles that do random damage to a mech you could always bring in the Thunder missile.

Of course anyone that remembers Pirate's Moon will know that's a scary thought.

#10 Naduk

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:16 AM

the above reasons are valid
however
they have skipped quite a few things
likely so they have something to add for another weapon expansion later on

arrow-IV would mean adding a Naga :D

it would be a devastating weapon on Polar , a useless weapon on HPG
and it would be completely shut down by anything with Dual AMS

getting Arrow to function as a fun weapon (on all sides) would be quite the challenge
so i can see why its in the later pile , along with Inferno SRM, cluster LRM, cluster Arrow, long tom (mech version), thunder missile, plasma rifles, Hyper Assault Gauss and much more

#11 Ted Wayz

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:29 AM

We will get the Arrow IV about the same time we get a "I win" button that can be bought for MC.

#12 Ted Wayz

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:32 AM

Oh, and without sized hardpoints I just imagined a Arrow IV equipped Javelin 11B with ECM in Escort game mode. <shudder>

#13 Karl Marlow

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:57 AM

View PostTed Wayz, on 18 March 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

Oh, and without sized hardpoints I just imagined a Arrow IV equipped Javelin 11B with ECM in Escort game mode. &lt;shudder&gt;


The thing weighs 15 tons before ammo. A jav would have to go Urbie speeds and have no armor just to equip the they thing and fire 1 round of splash damage.

For reference this is like saying a single LRM 15 launcher is an I win button. The only difference between an arrow and an LRM 20 is the range. The LRM is measured in Hades. The Arrow is measured in maps. Aside from that you have a little splash damage. All this is basically just a single artilary round, which we already have in the game, fired from a mech. It isn't that effective and nowhere near an I win button. He'll the consumables we already have for no tonnage of weight costs lets us put down 6 to 10 of them.

Edited by Karl Marlow, 18 March 2017 - 07:58 AM.






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