22 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

2x Basic:

• 15% Dissipation (Cool Run)
  
• 20% Increased Heat threshold (Heat Containment)
  
• 15% Acceleration (Kinetic Burst)
  
• 5% Twist angle (Twist X)
  
• 15% Deceleration (Hard Brake)
  
• 5% Twist speed (Twist Speed)
  
• 5% Arm speed (Arm Reflex)
  
• 5% Turning speed (Anchor Turn)

Elite

• 33% Start Up, Shut Down sequence (Quick Ignition)
  
• 5% Weapon Cool down (Fast Fire)
  
• 15% Convergence (Pin Point)
  
• 7.5% Top Speed (Speed Tweak)

• 10% Weapon Range Module on MPL
  
• 12% Weapon Cool down Module on MPL

With Mastery

• Radar Deprivation
  
• Advanced Seismic Sensor

• 1 Advanced UAV
  
• 1 Cool shot 9 by 9

This is what my SDR 5D is running, all of its bonuses.
These are the same bonuses and outfitting of my ACH, SHC, HBR, DWF.




What I'd like out of the skill tree is all of those bonuses for my points. I want to be as powerful as I am now, I don't need to be MORE powerful, just as powerful as I currently am.


For 91 points I should get almost ~17% weapon cool down, 20% Heat cap, 15% dissipation Radar Dep and Seismic with a cool shot and a UAV.


What would be nice is having enough left over to skill up some of the armor and structure bonuses to make my mech last longer and increase TTK for us all.




I don't think we need to make a tree that makes us weaker than we are now, the bonus armor and structure tree would be excellent for increases in TTK but shouldn't be too much of my investment.


I understand give and take, I understand avoiding Min/Max thinking and straight up buffing the over achievers we already have but I think we have a base line to shoot for and should reach for it as best we can.




I don't want to have to skill into Gyro and Hill climb to get to Heat Containment or to get Cool run. I don't want to invest in nodes that will not benefit my mech to any reasonable degree. I don't want to invest in arm speed when I try to invest in mobility.




There can be some give and take but arbitrary nodes is not how you introduce sacrifice or is a really BAD way to do it.




I want to see the end of 3 mechs to master, I would buy MANY more Heroes if it doesn't take buying 2 more crap variants to level and then sell. I did that with my Pretty Baby and Heavy Metal.





I want to see the mechs that need quirks KEEPING their quirks. You are taking too much off of them and expecting too much out of the skill tree to boost them back up. It just isn't happening.


Maybe some of you agree, maybe you don't, this is just my opinion and I'm sorry if it bothers you, I am not forcing you to read it.

Edited by Xetelian, 30 April 2017 - 03:53 AM.

[Scyther]

There are many comments regarding the Skill Tree design. Players want what they currently have, maybe a bit more. The devs very clearly want to tone down some base capabilities and are increasing some others.

You cannot get 15% Cool Run, 20% Heat Containment, or an easy across-the-board 5% weapon cooldown (Fast Fire) any more. On the other hand, you can get a lot more Anchor Turn, Kinetic Burst, Hard Brake, Torso Speed. See my post https://mwomercs.com...hese-skills-do/ in the PTS2 forum for some other comparisons.

Since they mention in their PTS2 Closed post that they are preparing for the May release date, you can pretty much assume the Skill Tree will go live in mostly its' current form in about a month. It's time to stop worrying about what it should look like and start thinking about what we will do with it when we get it.

[Nik Reaper]

Also one thing to consider is that though 8~10% general cooldown on weapons is all you can have, it's also all anyone can have at most, so it's not like only you will fire less often, everyone will , so now mby some rapid fire weapons that will be less impacted by losing fast fire + cooldown module might kinda be more desirable?

[Scyther]

Yes it's important to keep in mind that 'you' are not being affected by these changes in isolation, everyone is. If you can't get 15% Cool Run anymore, neither can anyone else. Your IS mechs losing quirks? So is everyone else, and Clan Mechs may well be more hurt by the global heat 'reductions' (not using the n word here) than your IS mechs are.

It may be a different playing field, but it's still a (mostly) even playing field (mech balance aside). Add in the new tech coming and we've all got some experimenting/adjusting to in the next few months. That's more than we've had to look forward to in some time.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xetelian, on 30 April 2017 - 03:51 AM, said:

2x Basic:

• 15% Dissipation (Cool Run)
  
• 20% Increased Heat threshold (Heat Containment)
  
• 15% Acceleration (Kinetic Burst)
  
• 5% Twist angle (Twist X)
  
• 15% Deceleration (Hard Brake)
  
• 5% Twist speed (Twist Speed)
  
• 5% Arm speed (Arm Reflex)
  
• 5% Turning speed (Anchor Turn)

Elite

• 33% Start Up, Shut Down sequence (Quick Ignition)
  
• 5% Weapon Cool down (Fast Fire)
  
• 15% Convergence (Pin Point)
  
• 7.5% Top Speed (Speed Tweak)

• 10% Weapon Range Module on MPL
  
• 12% Weapon Cool down Module on MPL

With Mastery

• Radar Deprivation
  
• Advanced Seismic Sensor

• 1 Advanced UAV
  
• 1 Cool shot 9 by 9

This is what my SDR 5D is running, all of its bonuses.


These are the same bonuses and outfitting of my ACH, SHC, HBR, DWF.




What I'd like out of the skill tree is all of those bonuses for my points. I want to be as powerful as I am now, I don't need to be MORE powerful, just as powerful as I currently am.


For 91 points I should get almost ~17% weapon cool down, 20% Heat cap, 15% dissipation Radar Dep and Seismic with a cool shot and a UAV.


What would be nice is having enough left over to skill up some of the armor and structure bonuses to make my mech last longer and increase TTK for us all.




I don't think we need to make a tree that makes us weaker than we are now, the bonus armor and structure tree would be excellent for increases in TTK but shouldn't be too much of my investment.


I understand give and take, I understand avoiding Min/Max thinking and straight up buffing the over achievers we already have but I think we have a base line to shoot for and should reach for it as best we can.




I don't want to have to skill into Gyro and Hill climb to get to Heat Containment or to get Cool run. I don't want to invest in nodes that will not benefit my mech to any reasonable degree. I don't want to invest in arm speed when I try to invest in mobility.




There can be some give and take but arbitrary nodes is not how you introduce sacrifice or is a really BAD way to do it.




I want to see the end of 3 mechs to master, I would buy MANY more Heroes if it doesn't take buying 2 more crap variants to level and then sell. I did that with my Pretty Baby and Heavy Metal.





I want to see the mechs that need quirks KEEPING their quirks. You are taking too much off of them and expecting too much out of the skill tree to boost them back up. It just isn't happening.


Maybe some of you agree, maybe you don't, this is just my opinion and I'm sorry if it bothers you, I am not forcing you to read it.

then you are likely to be disappointed, since part of the plan of the skill tree redesign, as I understand it, is to reduce power levels back some.

Something this game desperately needs, I might add.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 April 2017 - 05:16 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Nik Reaper, on 30 April 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

Also one thing to consider is that though 8~10% general cooldown on weapons is all you can have, it's also all anyone can have at most, so it's not like only you will fire less often, everyone will , so now mby some rapid fire weapons that will be less impacted by losing fast fire + cooldown module might kinda be more desirable?

The problem, as I've stated many times over, is pairing the quirk nerf with the skill tree. Unquirked 'mechs are losing relatively little and gaining much (in terms of armor, mobility, &c.), while quirked 'mechs are moving from barely viable to useless. It also seems to be what a lot of people either don't grasp or don't want to acknowledge.

A 'mech which loses 7% CDR from the shift to the skill web is not equivalent to a 'mech which loses that 7%, another 15% of missing quirks, 20% velocity, 10% heat gen, and 10% Range, or whatever the individual case may be, especially when the latter needed those bonuses just to have a chance against the former.

On principle I'm not actually totally opposed to the skill web-it's certainly not perfect, but it's interesting and has more room for improvement than the **** current system. The real problem is that they've tied the quirk nerfs to it, rather than waiting until after Civil War to see how 'mechs are performing with the new tech and skills. So what's likely to happen, PGI being PGI, is that they'll forget all about the balance adjustments they were talking about and leave a bunch of poor-to-mediocre 'mechs on the trash heap for years.

[Nik Reaper]

Yeah, that's true, and I wish I could say that right after the civil war tech comes over they will every week, in the form of hotfixes, be rebalancing under performing mechs, and I wish that the skill tree had, if not totally individual node tree at least had "per mech values" ... but PGI so yeah...

Though, I think it is a given PGI will be doing a big mech balance pass soon after the node tree is in, or at least when civil tech hits so as always well get to scratch our heads at the conclusions they got to then .

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Alexander of Macedon, on 30 April 2017 - 05:17 AM, said:

The problem, as I've stated many times over, is pairing the quirk nerf with the skill tree. Unquirked 'mechs are losing relatively little and gaining much (in terms of armor, mobility, &c.), while quirked 'mechs are moving from barely viable to useless. It also seems to be what a lot of people either don't grasp or don't want to acknowledge.

A 'mech which loses 7% CDR from the shift to the skill web is not equivalent to a 'mech which loses that 7%, another 15% of missing quirks, 20% velocity, 10% heat gen, and 10% Range, or whatever the individual case may be, especially when the latter needed those bonuses just to have a chance against the former.

On principle I'm not actually totally opposed to the skill web-it's certainly not perfect, but it's interesting and has more room for improvement than the **** current system. The real problem is that they've tied the quirk nerfs to it, rather than waiting until after Civil War to see how 'mechs are performing with the new tech and skills. So what's likely to happen, PGI being PGI, is that they'll forget all about the balance adjustments they were talking about and leave a bunch of poor-to-mediocre 'mechs on the trash heap for years.

Yup, that's just too much change all at once. They should delay the quirk nerfs like a month to check if they're actually necessary after the skill tree and engine stuff. Many people think it they are not.

[Bud Crue]

Nik Reaper, on 30 April 2017 - 05:31 AM, said:

Yeah, that's true, and I wish I could say that right after the civil war tech comes over they will every week, in the form of hotfixes, be rebalancing under performing mechs, and I wish that the skill tree had, if not totally individual node tree at least had "per mech values" ... but PGI so yeah...

Though, I think it is a given PGI will be doing a big mech balance pass soon after the node tree is in, or at least when civil tech hits so as always well get to scratch our heads at the conclusions they got to then .

If they base changes on actual data (which historically they claim to do) then they cannot possibly do weekly or even monthly iterative fixes. I mean think about it: how often do you see some truly crap mechs being played now? They don't get played now because they are crap, so how frequently do you suppose they will be played when PGI makes them objectively worse? If they are even more infrequently played then PGI can't get enough reliable data for their new "baseline" of performance to know if they need to be fixed. I mean, a couple of comp guys out for a lark could be the sole data set for the Panther 10P in a given month, and because they are comp guys dropping with a comp team they might do really well. Then PGI will look at their "data" and conclude: wow even with its nerfs the 10P is performing above its presumed baseline...we better nerf it again.

Nope, there will not be iterative changes following the skills tree for the nerfed mechs, and if there are, the changes will be based on incomplete and skewed data. The best we can hope for is a giant re-quirkening again in 6 months or so. And of course by then, many will have gotten fed up with the nerfing of their content and either switched to the meta (further skewing the data) or left the game entirely.

By nerfing mechs as part of the skills tree process, they have guaranteed that their new baseline data will be intrinsically flawed.

[sneeking]

do you think they would delete my accounts if i asked them too so i can uninstall this game and forget about its existence.

since iv been on extended break and im going to be screwd on the modules of which i have quite a few and i realy don't feel like rebuilding my mechs again iv already had to do that several times when they arbitrarily mess them up for me.

id just like my accounts removed and leave

[Nik Reaper]

Yeah, if they keep up what they have been doing sure.. They could use that other thing, intuitively iterate quirks on mechs, for used, viable and semi-viable builds that those mechs can do, and do so every week or two... like eternal crusade , but yeah so far large sweeping changes seem to be there style.
Not something they need to keep doing at all costs....

Edited by Nik Reaper, 30 April 2017 - 05:58 AM.

[Silas7]

Hard decision to pick between for me would be:

• Radar Deprivation

Or

• Speed Tweek

Those are the most important skills for a mech if you ask me and forcing the player to pick one would shake the meta IMO.

[cazidin]

Silas7, on 30 April 2017 - 05:59 AM, said:

Hard decision to pick between for me would be:

• Radar Deprivation

Or

• Speed Tweek

Those are the most important skills for a mech if you ask me and forcing the player to pick one would shake the meta IMO.

What do you get with the skills preceding Radar Deprivation and Speed Tweak? That'll make your choice much easier.

[Xetelian]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 April 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

then you are likely to be disappointed, since part of the plan of the skill tree redesign, as I understand it, is to reduce power levels back some.

Something this game desperately needs, I might add.

More armor and less firepower would be fine but radar dep and seismic and agility are getting hard nerfs.

[Shifty McSwift]

Xetelian, on 30 April 2017 - 03:51 AM, said:

I don't think we need to make a tree that makes us weaker than we are now, the bonus armor and structure tree would be excellent for increases in TTK but shouldn't be too much of my investment.

Just quickly, if you discount the mobility changes, the toughness rates of mechs are staying the same (armor, structure and the quirks for them too, all stay as is), so the survivability tree is all bonus to armor/structure if you want it, you don't lose anything there as it were by not taking it.

[Alteran]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 April 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

then you are likely to be disappointed, since part of the plan of the skill tree redesign, as I understand it, is to reduce power levels back some.

Something this game desperately needs, I might add.

So in all the threads that I've read and tried to understand, trying to be as neutral as I can, is this all really a way to give us a global reduction in overall performance? It's really in no way an attempt to fix anything, but rather a massive nerf?

That's it?

Edited by Alteran, 30 April 2017 - 06:27 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Alteran, on 30 April 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

So in all the threads that I've read and tried to understand, trying to be as neutral as I can, is this all really a way to give us a global reduction in overall performance? It's really in no way an attempt to fix anything, but rather a massive nerf?

That's it?

Well, not exactly, the skilltree itself could be considered a nerf by some or a buff by others depending on perspective and choices, it is just a change to that system more accurately though. The thing is it comes on the back of a lot of other changes that are definitely considered nerfs when viewed alone, most specifically the hits quirks took, and the hit everyone took to engine capabilities/mobility.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xetelian, on 30 April 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

More armor and less firepower would be fine but radar dep and seismic and agility are getting hard nerfs.

more armor, less firepower just leads to papercut weapons, dps play, etc. Not the answer either.

The real answer lies in reducing aiming efficiency, be it through convergence, etc, and adding meaningful, impactful heat effects to the heatscale.....

But PGI, and our Comp Overlords are adamantly against that. Thus we get half measures that don't really work.

[Alteran]

Shifty McSwift, on 30 April 2017 - 06:47 PM, said:

Well, not exactly, the skilltree itself could be considered a nerf by some or a buff by others depending on perspective and choices, it is just a change to that system more accurately though. The thing is it comes on the back of a lot of other changes that are definitely considered nerfs when viewed alone, most specifically the hits quirks took, and the hit everyone took to engine capabilities/mobility.

So... this is really just another way to nerf the crap out of the performance of Mechs.... without calling it a nerf? PGI is wrapping this up and into a "new way to give us customization and specialization choices".... but really nerfing the hell out of everything.

Edited by Alteran, 30 April 2017 - 07:14 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Alteran, on 30 April 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

So... this is really just another way to nerf the crap out of the performance of Mechs.... without calling it a nerf? PGI is wrapping this up and into a "new way to give us customization and specialization choices".... but really nerfing the hell out of everything.

Personally I don't mind mass nerfs, I think we somewhat need them at this stage, damage/dps potentials have gone wild while survivability has remained much the same, the idea of across the board reductions to some potentials I think has the potential to work out very well for how games play out.

At the same time, of course the low meta mechs don't need nerfs, but across the board nerfs are across the board, individual mech balancing is a case by case situation that requires constant attention anyway (same as keeping an eye on and nerf batting mechs that over perform).

I feel like these are all separate things despite their given attachments in any given patch.