55 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

Post anything about (the upcoming) ATMs here!


First, let's look at some stats:

Damage: 3 at 90/180/270m, 2 at 150/300/450m, and 1 at 270/540/810m

Let's just take the range profile of the "1" damage and use it as the damage falloff profile to get:

Adjusted Damage: 3/2/1 at 270/540/810m

Weight/Crit/Heat: 1.5/2/2 for ATM3, 3.5/3/4 for ATM6, 5/4/6 for ATM9, and 7/5/8 for ATM12

As you can see, ATMs are not balanced around long range (1t of ammo would be 60 missiles) so to make ATMs can still do something at that range, they need to behave like SSRMs with their "bone-homing" targeting system. With that in mind, you can hope to leg a Light with its leg armor open even at medium-long range. This does make Lights more vulnerable.

ATMs are in fact, short to mid range weapon when you look at the stats. Now you might be wondering what will happen at 270m or below if someone pack multiple ATM12. A ~70kph Scorch (Marauder IIC), for example, can pack 4x ATM12 with 6t ammo, 17 DHS, and a couple of ERMLs. The ATMs would alpha 144 bone-seeking damage at 270m or below.

I don't remember the probability for each bone to be hit but this could 1-2 shot a Light at 270m or below although the alpha heat would be prohibitive because of GH. Note that the above mentioned Scorch is basically too restricted by the heavy ATMs.

ATMs could have LRM's targeting system but they would be completely useless at long range though it could balance their massive (and hot) short range alpha potential.

TL;DR:

• ATMs target bones like SSRMs
  
• 2.7/1.8/0.9 damage at 270/540/810m
  
• 160m/s (LRM speed)
  
• Susceptible to AMS

• Will cause much salt to be shed because people will hate it that they can't run away from the missiles
  
• Crippled Lights everywhere, are still not that great for heavier 'Mechs unless they have opened sections with juicy weapons (hello Gauss 'Mechs!)

[Snazzy Dragon]

I honestly cannot think of a way to implement them that won't either gloriously suck or be grossly overpowered.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I would approve of LRM targetting but giving them higher velocities than LRMs, but that would easily end up making LRMs useless unless ATMs had longer cooldowns. Of course, LRMs could and should be given even higher velocities as to allow them to at least be somewhat useful at their maximum ranges.

Your idea of them auto spreading seems to just make them end up like super streaks instead of super LRMs, I don't quite like the streak mechanics due to the autospreading and how they end up just being OP against lights and trash against assaults.

So I vote the LRM based route.

[Hit the Deck]

Snazzy Dragon, on 21 March 2017 - 10:58 PM, said:

I honestly cannot think of a way to implement them that won't either gloriously suck or be grossly overpowered.

Remember that they are susceptible to AMS (Clan will also get LAMS) because of the low number of missiles per shot, moreover if they fly as fast (slow) as LRMs.

[FireStoat]

Hit the Deck, on 21 March 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

Remember that they are susceptible to AMS (Clan will also get LAMS) because of the low number of missiles per shot, moreover if they fly as fast (slow) as LRMs.

That's the biggest thing I'm concerned with. Laser AMS will be introduced at the exact same time as the rest, on top of Medium Range Missiles for Inner Sphere being thrown in, as well as the skill tree finally being thrown at us with a drastically reduced Radar Deprivation and ECM radius (unless heavily invested in to recover old values). Because of the skill tree 'reset' and players making hard choices of mechs to flesh out with the tree, LRM's are going to be flying in the air a whole bunch in response.

People are going to start finding room for AMS's again. I can feel it in my bones. And ATM's with the reduced number of missiles are going to have people seriously rethinking the value of packing them and how they will be used. All that said, it won't stop me from trying them out on my MAD IIC - B because I'm curious how they'll do on that mech.

[Davegt27]

Is this advanced crying?

[Snazzy Dragon]

Davegt27, on 21 March 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

Is this advanced crying?

No, it's asking early what kind of stats and mechanics could be behind a future weapon system so PGI can possibly have some baseline ideas of how to ultimately implement them, rather than shrugging and going "they'll figure out" and acting surprised later when we get delivered a dumpster fire

No one is crying (not yet anyway, sure it'll happen around page 3 as it normally does)

[Juodas Varnas]

You don't have to balance new tech, if the old tech is not balanced anyway

[Hit the Deck]

FireStoat, on 21 March 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

That's the biggest thing I'm concerned with. Laser AMS will be introduced at the exact same time as the rest, on top of Medium Range Missiles for Inner Sphere being thrown in, as well as the skill tree finally being thrown at us with a drastically reduced Radar Deprivation and ECM radius (unless heavily invested in to recover old values). Because of the skill tree 'reset' and players making hard choices of mechs to flesh out with the tree, LRM's are going to be flying in the air a whole bunch in response.

People are going to start finding room for AMS's again. I can feel it in my bones. And ATM's with the reduced number of missiles are going to have people seriously rethinking the value of packing them and how they will be used. All that said, it won't stop me from trying them out on my MAD IIC - B because I'm curious how they'll do on that mech.

I'm not concerned with MRMs being shot down because they are launched in big packs, with 40 missiles per launcher at maximum. They would also fly faster because of the dumb fire nature.

It's kinda nice that ATMs already have this self balancing feature that they are fired in low in number thus susceptible to AMS.

AMS does need to be a useful equipment which means that missiles in general (not just SRMs) need to be effective.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 22 March 2017 - 02:20 AM.

[RestosIII]

ATMs need to have LRM targetting, but with a flat trajectory, coupled with damage drop-off and, preferably, velocity boosting as the missiles fly farther distances. Crossing my fingers for around 80-90 ammo per ton as well.

[Hit the Deck]

RestosIII, on 22 March 2017 - 02:21 AM, said:

ATMs need to have LRM targetting, but with a flat trajectory, coupled with damage drop-off and, preferably, velocity boosting as the missiles fly farther distances. Crossing my fingers for around 80-90 ammo per ton as well.

Do the missiles still fly straight at any distance? That would mean that you can't hit an enemy without a clear LOS.

It would be acceptable for me if the missiles fly fast, let's say, SRM fast. Maybe a tightened pattern is warranted as LRM10 can't even land all its missiles at a stationary target.

[El Bandito]

7 tons for 12 damage at long range? This thing will not replace CLRMs. In fact, it will be waste of ammo to use it beyond mid range. I'd treat it as basically a guided MRM for Clans.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 March 2017 - 02:42 AM.

[RestosIII]

Hit the Deck, on 22 March 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

Do the missiles still fly straight at any distance? That would mean that you can't hit an enemy without a clear LOS.

It would be acceptable for me if the missiles fly fast, let's say, SRM fast. Maybe a tightened pattern is warranted as LRM10 can't even land all its missiles at a stationary target.

Ayep. That's what I'm hoping for. If ATMs have any indirect fire capabilities at all, I'm going to be annoyed. And that's also why I'm a fan of the velocity getting boosted the longer they're in the air.

[Hit the Deck]

El Bandito, on 22 March 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

7 tons for 12 damage at long range? This thing will not replace CLRMs. In fact, it will be waste of ammo to use it beyond mid range. I'd treat it as basically a guided MRM for Clans.

Damage and ammo-wise, they are indeed wasteful for long range. You can still leg a Light at medium-long range if they function like SSRMs though.

RestosIII, on 22 March 2017 - 02:42 AM, said:

Ayep. That's what I'm hoping for. If ATMs have any indirect fire capabilities at all, I'm going to be annoyed. And that's also why I'm a fan of the velocity getting boosted the longer they're in the air.

That could explain the damage dropoff (the expel more fuel as they go to fly faster) but I somehow doubt that PGI will implement that mechanics.

[Magnus Santini]

Seems like a disaster in the making. Disasters should not be made on purpose. The weapon system has to be created not to significantly change the balance of mech tonnage. So if it is going to have the goodie stats people want, it is going to need one or more crippling nerfs ™. Like a dodgy IFF and auto-retargeting to closest target including the firer if LOS is lost, Victor launcher tubes for 20 sec salvo duration, ghost heat, use your imagination.

[Widowmaker1981]

PLZ NO to streak bone targeting. ATMs shouldnt be useless against big mechs.

Id like to see LRM tracking with a decent velocity and much lower trajectory to seriously hinder their use as indirect fire weapons but give them a role at all ranges as direct fire lock on weapons.

I dont want them to be a new LOL BYE BYE lights weapons that doesnt work against heavies or assaults.

[Hit the Deck]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 March 2017 - 04:06 AM, said:

PLZ NO to streak bone targeting. ATMs shouldnt be useless against big mechs.

Id like to see LRM tracking with a decent velocity and much lower trajectory to seriously hinder their use as indirect fire weapons but give them a role at all ranges as direct fire lock on weapons.

I dont want them to be a new LOL BYE BYE lights weapons that doesnt work against heavies or assaults.

Basically you can't avoid the fact that spread weapons in essence are less efective against more heavily armored targets.

Unless you want ATMs to not spread, e.g. you can set where all of the missiles will land on a particular point.

Their long range role is inherently questionable per TRO stats (low damage, low ammo, and create high heat for a given tonnage). I can't think a better way for them to be barely useful at this range other than to make them target bones considering their low missiles per shot.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 22 March 2017 - 04:32 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Hit the Deck, on 22 March 2017 - 04:28 AM, said:

Basically you can't avoid the fact that spread weapons in essence are less efective against more heavily armored targets.

Unless you want ATMs to not spread, e.g. you can set where all of the missiles will land on a particular point.

Their long range role is inherently questionable per TRO stats (low damage, low ammo, and create high heat for a given tonnage). I can't think a better way for them to be barely useful at this range other than to make them target bones considering their low missiles per shot.

LRMs spread, and are better against big mechs than they are against lights, because instead of targeting bones they have an actual radius they spread in, meaning against bigger targets with bigger hitboxes they focus torso sections better.

Bone targeting means they split their damage evenly on every single component, and since each missile does little damage it makes them quite literally useless against big mechs at any range.

If they bone target i will use them as much as i use streaks now, which is to say never.

[Hit the Deck]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 March 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

LRMs spread, and are better against big mechs than they are against lights, because instead of targeting bones they have an actual radius they spread in, meaning against bigger targets with bigger hitboxes they focus torso sections better.

This is true but how wide would be good?

Widowmaker1981, on 22 March 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

Bone targeting means they split their damage evenly on every single component, and since each missile does little damage it makes them quite literally useless against big mechs at any range.

As far as I can remember, this is not true because each bone (component) has its own probability to be hit by a streak missile. I unfortunately neither remember the probability distribution nor know how it's now.

You can set the prob distribution to balance ATMs if they get the streak mechanics.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Hit the Deck, on 22 March 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

This is true but how wide would be good?


As far as I can remember, this is not true because each bone (component) has its own probability to be hit by a streak missile. I unfortunately neither remember the probability distribution nor know how it's now.

You can set the prob distribution to balance ATMs if they get the streak mechanics.

The issue with streak mechanics is that they go for arms and legs in the first place and all missiles also always hit as long as there is no cover.

With LRM mechanics all the missiles are aiming for center torso but have a spread radius that leads to the side torsos being hit, some missiles missing entirely, and lets the enemy jump jet to spread damage to legs or torso twist to spread damage to arms. Its much less basic than the streak mechanic and much more balanced between the classes, as the spread means they don't hit lights as easily, but they still hurt lights badly due to some hitting and light's lower armor. For assaults they usually deal full damage but the assault has enough armor and can arm shield to negate the damage better.

Decent spread values would basically just be to mimic the LRM10 or LRM15. Really with some decent velocity LRMs would be pretty great, and so would ATMs. LRMs could arc up, giving them decent indirect fire ability while ATMs have no arcing, so they'd ram straight into the hill if you try to fire from behind one or at the very least require the pilot to lock, aim up and quickly fire, then aim back down to keep the lock.