145 replies to this topic

[Carl Vickers]

Threat Doc, on 10 April 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Awwww, that's cute. Someone's afraid of widdew-ol-LRMs.

"share armor"... I will reiterate, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life.

You don't WANT your SUPPORT elements to share armor, you WANT them covering your *** on the battlefield! You WANT to rely on your support elements to help suppress your opponents, including other LRM elements, so you can get closer. However, you gun bunnies are ALL alike, you couldn't care less about support, as long as you get the kill, you greedy little min-maxer hob-goblins!!! You wouldn't know the definition of team work if it were tattoo'd on your foreheads so every time you looked in the mirror you would have a reminder!!! I am so frickin' tired of thoughtless ignorant gun bunnies!!!

Lol, thats the typical lurmer attitude right there, no wonder people dont like most lumers. If 'sharing armor' is the dumbest thing you have ever heard in your life then you need to get out more.

No to increase on lurm speed, it would be worse for IS as they dont have many(good) ecm mechs where as clans have great ECM coverage.

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 March 2017 - 06:20 PM, said:

Agreed, but in this Case would you Support a Trade off? Velocity for Range?


ive reworked the Topic abit to be 40m/Hex so it will be more like 840m which i think should be ok,




well games usually change for balance and what most people feel is balanced,
so it does matter what the majority thinks, you disagree thats fine post your thoughts,
my objections are still valid until you give counter arguments to convice me im wrong,
which you havent dont yet so till you do i still feel im right, .... um Period?






this isnt an attack on anyone its just LRMs have gotten a bad name,
this is mostly because of some players afraid of getting their Paint Scratched,
they stay in the back & dont share armor with the team, & as such arnt considered helpful to the Team,
-
LRMs can be Useful in coordinated Attacks, but a lone person cannot use them as such,
yes dealing damage is important , but keeping your Team alive as long as possable is as well,
the more of your Armor you Share the longer your Team Lives, more Players Alive = more Damage / Time,
-
as an LRM player i assume you have back up weapons to fend off should the worse happen?


Agreed which is why im proposing a range reduction to go along with a Velocity and Spread Buff,


ok just so you know, you may not have played Clan too much, but Clan dont have a 0m min Range,
once a mech gets under 100m Clan LRMs do less than 0.1Damage a missile,
-
why 300m? ive used LRMs up to 200m, just aim down abit as you fire,
most of the time doing so can force all your LRMs to hit CT, which could help in last Ditch,


i agree some of your ideas and concepts are interesting,
but thats another topic, here im asking if a Range reduction for Spread or Velocity Buff would be fair,
i would love for you to make a topic on your ideas, i would encourage you to,




Thanks Bishop always a Pleasure,
dont suppose you could,... um add anything to the topic?
do you think a Range for Velocity or Spread Trade off?

I am not much for any increases to velocity. For PPC's as well. If someone can actually aim and not using a bot they can hit at any velocity with PPC's. Its the cheats that wanted the speed increase. This game openly helped aim botters by increasing PPC velocity in my opinion. Same goes for the Gauss charge.

Anyway, for LRM's they are fine and just subject of much trolling. Its something this game offers that others don't and have always been trolled.

Honestly with damage numbers all over the map its tough to comment. I have seen LRMs hit like ac 20 shells a number of times. Last so called comp player I seen was aim botting because he is useless at this game. If the world championships didn't show those comp teams are using hacks to get there I don't know what will.

Makes it tough to comment on a lot of things.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 April 2017 - 05:50 PM.

[Ultimax]

Tesunie, on 11 April 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

And yours is the ability to not recognize other's skills, because they aren't what you like.

LRMs do not require a special skill set.

The premise is so ridiculous that it doesn't even deserve a real response.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 10 April 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Q: How would this actually help direct fire, and not indirect fire? What is the issue with indirect fire, and how does velocity help direct over indirect, over say changing spread or tracking for indirect compared to direct? Also, how would your suggestion help LRMs actually be "long" ranged, considering MRMs are called "medium ranged" and are soon to be in the game?

because its more likely you will use LRMs with LOS when they are at 200-400m range,
your more likely to use LRMs without LOS when the target is over 500m away,
when closer its easier to get locks so thats how im seeing it butt LOS fire,

MRMs are not Lockon, think of them as 525-600m SRMs,
as they do not lockon i dont see them as doing what LRMs do,

[Carl Vickers]

Johnny Z, on 11 April 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

I am not much for any increases to velocity. For PPC's as well. If someone can actually aim and not using a bot they can hit at any velocity with PPC's. Its the cheats that wanted the speed increase. This game openly helped aim botters by increasing PPC velocity in my opinion. Same goes for the Gauss charge.

Anyway, for LRM's they are fine and just subject of much trolling. Its something this game offers that others don't and have always been trolled.

Honestly with damage numbers all over the map its tough to comment. I have seen LRMs hit like ac 20 shells a number of times. Last so called comp player I seen was aim botting because he is useless at this game. If the world championships didn't show those comp teams are using hacks to get there I don't know what will.

Makes it tough to comment on a lot of things.

Lol

Edited by Carl Vickers, 11 April 2017 - 06:57 PM.

[Threat Doc]

Tesunie, on 11 April 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

And yours is the ability to not recognize other's skills, because they aren't what you like.

Well. Now that we have the obligatory "attack the person" phase over, can we move to combat resolution phase? (Sorry, bad TT joke.)

It's alright, Tesunie, I've added that ******* to my Ignore list; you're right, he can't recognize skill and truth because he's ignorant to anyone's preferred playstyle because they're not his. Same with Carl Vickers; his dumb *** is about to be ignored, as well.

[Tesunie]

Ultimax, on 11 April 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

LRMs do not require a special skill set.

The premise is so ridiculous that it doesn't even deserve a real response.

I was in another thread, where we were discussing LRMs on Assaults. We didn't mention boating them, just having some on them.

A T1 player decided to "prove" it one way or another. So they decided to play an LRM70 Night Gyr, record their matches and posted them.

Lets just say, the way he used them... I cringed. He shot them into hills. He shot them into allies. He shot them at a lock, break that lock willingly, then lock another lock and do the same. He...

Lets just say, he could have used them a lot more effectively, considered his angles better, thought where the LRMs would travel, if they would hit before lock would be lost... Yeah. He could have used them a lot better...

So yes. LRMs do require skill to use effectively.

[Carl Vickers]

Sorry Tesuni, lurms require a little bit of knowledge to use effectively, not skill.

The tier 1 player wouldnt have been aware of how his launchers are positioned in regards to firing arc, hence why people copped his lrums in the back. Similar to any other weapon is if someone hasnt used it much they prolly wont do well with them as they dont know the ins and outs of the weapon.

The are still a sub par weapon compared to most others and worse still are the vast majority of lurm users who think they can sit at the back, like a square or 2 back from the group and leach off of others pressing R to see what they need to target.

[Johnny Z]

Carl Vickers, on 11 April 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

Lol

My thoughts exactly.

Carl Vickers, on 11 April 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Sorry Tesuni, lurms require a little bit of knowledge to use effectively, not skill.

The tier 1 player wouldnt have been aware of how his launchers are positioned in regards to firing arc, hence why people copped his lrums in the back. Similar to any other weapon is if someone hasnt used it much they prolly wont do well with them as they dont know the ins and outs of the weapon.

The are still a sub par weapon compared to most others and worse still are the vast majority of lurm users who think they can sit at the back, like a square or 2 back from the group and leach off of others pressing R to see what they need to target.

I had fun and said in team chat my STK was a LRM boat. You know how fast I had an enemy light behind me? In fact my STK only had 2 LRM 5's and that light was the first to go down on their team. This was a little over a week ago.

Funniest thing, half my team was waiting for the light to show up because the synch dropping using team speak is a plague in this game which everyone knows about.

I can afford to test the waters on a number of things and do.

LRMs are trolled to such a degree in game it cannot easily be put into words.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 April 2017 - 07:50 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Johnny Z, on 11 April 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

My thoughts exactly.



I had fun and said in team chat my STK was a LRM boat. You know how fast I had an enemy light behind me? In fact my STK only had 2 LRM 5's and that light was the first to go down on their team. This was a little over a week ago.

Funniest thing, half my team was waiting for the light to show up because the synch dropping using team speak is a plague in this game which everyone knows about.

I can afford to test the waters on a number of things and do.

LRMs are trolled to such a degree in game it cannot easily be put into words.

[Tesunie]

Carl Vickers, on 11 April 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Sorry Tesuni, lurms require a little bit of knowledge to use effectively, not skill.

The tier 1 player wouldnt have been aware of how his launchers are positioned in regards to firing arc, hence why people copped his lrums in the back. Similar to any other weapon is if someone hasnt used it much they prolly wont do well with them as they dont know the ins and outs of the weapon.

The are still a sub par weapon compared to most others and worse still are the vast majority of lurm users who think they can sit at the back, like a square or 2 back from the group and leach off of others pressing R to see what they need to target.

So? Knowledge is not a skill? Timing is not a skill? Map positioning is not a skill?

I'm just going to... Not care anymore about what you say here. Seen as you seem to already know everything, which tends to mean you know nothing. Which means, there is no reason to try and discuss things with you, as you will never be willing to consider the possibility that I may actually know what I'm talking about, because if I knew what I was talking about than that would imply that LRMs do require skill to use well, as well as would imply that I actually have skill.

Sorry for implying that I'm anything more than a potato. Please, try and harvest me if we ever drop against each other in a match.

PS: I don't use only LRMs, for the record. Actually, I've used every weapon in the game, even the ones people consider "bad". But, continue to say how I don't know what I'm talking about. By all means.

[Carl Vickers]

Tesunie, on 11 April 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

So? Knowledge is not a skill? Timing is not a skill? Map positioning is not a skill?

I'm just going to... Not care anymore about what you say here. Seen as you seem to already know everything, which tends to mean you know nothing. Which means, there is no reason to try and discuss things with you, as you will never be willing to consider the possibility that I may actually know what I'm talking about, because if I knew what I was talking about than that would imply that LRMs do require skill to use well, as well as would imply that I actually have skill.

Sorry for implying that I'm anything more than a potato. Please, try and harvest me if we ever drop against each other in a match.

PS: I don't use only LRMs, for the record. Actually, I've used every weapon in the game, even the ones people consider "bad". But, continue to say how I don't know what I'm talking about. By all means.

Lol, are u mad bro? No where in my post did I imply that you were/are a potato, I just stated my opinion of lurms.

[Lightfoot]

No, just give LRMs better velocity. Lower the flight path if Artemis is equipped since Artemis is Line of Sight laser tracking. Artemis does not do enough for 1 ton, 1 slot equipment.

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 April 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

because its more likely you will use LRMs with LOS when they are at 200-400m range,
your more likely to use LRMs without LOS when the target is over 500m away,
when closer its easier to get locks so thats how im seeing it butt LOS fire,

MRMs are not Lockon, think of them as 525-600m SRMs,
as they do not lockon i dont see them as doing what LRMs do,

I will admit that I use LRMs at all kinds of ranges (typically under 600m) with line of sight or not. But, I'm also known for jumping up, getting a lock, and giving a departing gift of LRM rain on someone before I lose the lock. I tend to get my own locks, but that doesn't mean that if an ally is holding a lock I'm not going to shoot either.

Honestly, it sounds like it would buff LRMs more so as a mid to close range (but outside 180m) missile, and making long range even more difficult, if I'm understanding the concept that is. AKA: It would fly out of the tubes faster, and then gradually slow down as it got farther away. This would aid in dumb fired closer barrages of missiles...

I'm not opposed to LRMs getting a velocity buff, but I would image that MRMs would probably fulfill this role if LRMs had faster velocity at start and slow down over time.

I still feel that LRMs probably just need a velocity buff (or at least had it tested for more data again), and if people don't want to encourage LRMs as indirect, adjust tracking strength and spread for shots on targets that can't be seen. This makes it less damaging and less likely to hit. We could even adjust tracking and/or spread for LRMs as they travel farther out, so they become less viable outside 600-700m.


I do realize that LRMs are always going to be a hard weapon to balance. They are a utility weapon, with lots of roles and capabilities. They are distinct in their ability to shoot indirectly. This all adds up to a weapon system that can easily become a force multiplier, and domino into being a very overbearing weapon. Or... Underwhelming if adjusted the other way too much.

I want LRMs to become a reasonable weapon for all tiers, but at the same time I'm not looking for it to become the next OP thing. However, I don't think any changes someone does to it will stop the accusations of "no skill" and the continuous hate LRM users seem to get...

[Tesunie]

Carl Vickers, on 11 April 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

Lol, are u mad bro? No where in my post did I imply that you were/are a potato, I just stated my opinion of lurms.

You said "lurms require a little bit of knowledge to use effectively, not skill." As I am a professed LRM user, and I enjoy and do remarkably well with my LRMs, you implied (rather intentionally or not) that I don't have much skill.

I have to still disagree with you that LRMs do require skill. The issue is about using them effectively. To just hide in the back and spam at every lock possible... No. That's just skill-less lobbing of ammunition. But, to get your own locks, plot the course of your missiles so they have the best chance of actually hitting, being able to gauge when you may lose a lock and if it will last long enough, to arc a missile at the right degree to shoot it in places such as the HPG network basement or even under the docks in Crimson, etc. All that requires a good measure of skill.

Part of skill is familiarity. Anyone can point a (for example) PPC at a target and click the button, and it can be done in a rather skill-less manner. However, to consistently land hits on your target, do so as they move, and be able to semi-reliably/reliably hit said component you are aiming for... That's a combination of skill, weapon familiarity and knowledge. You know how fast the PPC bolt travels, so you can predict how far you need to lead to get it to land where you want and you've memorized the target's hit boxes so you know where you want said bolt to land.

You gain that knowledge via using the weapon and becoming familiar with it. So, why is it that LRMs are so different in abilities that they require no skill, where as the PPC does? It's all knowledge after all, isn't it?

(PS: Sorry if I read your comment before with too much hostility... It is sometimes hard to get tone of voice in text...)

[Carl Vickers]

I like most people when they started this game used lurms, to get a feel for the game. My timbie with 2 alrum 15s and 4 er mids got used for around 6 months till I learned that while you can put 60 points of damage down range the spread of the damage is not as effective as putting 60 points of damage on a single spot, as long as you can hold your hand still.

Seeing as lurms are a lock based weapon the skill needed to use them is inherently less than whats needed in direct fire mechs, you pretty much say so in your own words about using PPC's. Lurms need more awareness due to terrain. Shooting a mech on the run from 500 meters away is a skill as you dont have a lock to hold in place which is a lot easier compared to getting that PPC hit in at 500 meters.

[JC Daxion]

Khobai, on 09 April 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

Also ECM needs to not grant stealth anymore. The only effect it should have on missiles is doubling lock-on time. Hopefully now that stealth armor is being added, ECM will no longer grant stealth. Only stealth armor should grant stealth.

i have been saying and thinking this for a long time now. ECM should just Increase target lock time.. No clue why this change has not happened yet.





I also like the idea of LRM's increase speed over distance traveled.


The other thought i was having is about the Line-of-sight. I would really love if LOS reduced arc a bit. Maybe by 1/3? Make them easier to fire say under the platform in crimson for example. But that would also reduce travel time a bit, while still letting you fire LRM's over the brawler directly in front of you.




I do have to laugh at some folks in this thread with the ol LRM hate, LRMers sitting in the back, blah, blah.. So funny how often it is the PPC and Gauss guys that sit back and don't share armor. But I'd surely rather have an LRM guy helping me brawl than a DF guy, i can't tell you how many times i have been plinked in the back because some fool doesn't have trigger control. Taking it in both ends is no fun despite what the internet might tell you..

Be in the lead push.. is often a nice way to go with um.. Use some of your armor, to soak an alpha, and drop back.. while the bralwer pushes nice and fresh on the guy that is not running hot.. Lurm um and listen to the rage of LRMNOOB! I wish that was a warhorn

[Tesunie]

Carl Vickers, on 11 April 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

I like most people when they started this game used lurms, to get a feel for the game. My timbie with 2 alrum 15s and 4 er mids got used for around 6 months till I learned that while you can put 60 points of damage down range the spread of the damage is not as effective as putting 60 points of damage on a single spot, as long as you can hold your hand still.

Seeing as lurms are a lock based weapon the skill needed to use them is inherently less than whats needed in direct fire mechs, you pretty much say so in your own words about using PPC's. Lurms need more awareness due to terrain. Shooting a mech on the run from 500 meters away is a skill as you dont have a lock to hold in place which is a lot easier compared to getting that PPC hit in at 500 meters.

DId you include ECM? AMS?

Have to know how to deal with that, especially with LRMs. UAV, TAG, NARC, AP. Or you need to position to a spot where it wont effect you as much and deal with targets without said protection.


Did you consider cover?

An LRM user almost needs to look at effects on the field backwards, because their missiles move so slowly, and the tracking arc may bring them into some cover direct fire weapons may never need to worry about. Where as direct fire is "is my line clear for this attack?" LRMs are like "can they get into blocking terrain before my missiles actually hit?" These are each skills, and each are as equally important for their weapons. To be honest, the latter is harder to typically figure out than the former.

This is like the conversation about boated/focused vs balanced/mixed builds. Each have their purpose and uses. A focused build wishes to engage enemies at it's strengths, and play to those strengths avoiding situations it would be weak in. Where as a balanced/mixed build instead doesn't have a specific weakness, but doesn't present a sharp strength (depending upon how balanced it is, it may have a strong focus, but just a little diversity to cover it's weaker aspects). With a balanced build, instead of playing to your strength, you instead want to find what your opponent's build's weakness is, and play against it. A specialized focused build is often "easier" to play, where as a more balanced build tends to be "harder" to play. But each are just as viable as the other.


Also, I've used the spread of LRMs to my advantage before. Had many an opponent get stripped on a side torso (typically by my own direct fire capabilities, but not always). Then, they twist to shield that side. Okay, now my direct fire can't hit their already damaged section, so I shoot my LRMs at them. Despite them shielding their side from me, I managed to still land LRMs on all their torso sections, resulting in that side torso popping, and sometimes in an IS XL, death. This would probably be considered as "thinking outside the box" tactic. Something I've become known for in just about any game I have played.

[Carl Vickers]

ECM, cover ect is just more knowledge.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I dont think im going to be able to change your mind and I know you cant change mine lol

[Threat Doc]

Tesunie... you are actually talking to potato's, and it is a battle that no longer needs be fought. I am done with this conversation, unless someone with brains and a lack of prejudice actually has something to say, and then I will respond, again. Not until then. As you said, jump, get a lock, and leave them a departing rack. Time to pop chaff and evade on these potato's.