53 replies to this topic

[Bogus]

Heavies are the sweet spot in terms of damage output versus size/speed, it's why players heavily favor them relative to the other classes. I personally do better in mediums, but that's probably because I play them more than heavies. Quicker to get in a match, plus most of the good heavies were introduced in my long absence and I'm not up to speed on them just yet.

[Alistair Winter]

Bud Crue, on 27 March 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

...PGI likes to pretend they have made "a competitive e-sport platform" with this here stompy robot arena shooter; and if it really is to be "competitive" all choices in that competition have to be equally viable else wise there is a bias that benefits certain mechs and that leads to unbalanced play and thus, skewed -and boring and predictable- competition. And if that happens, then no one will buy into their e-sport or want to play it.
Wait a second...

All jokes aside, the viability of light mechs in MWO was something Russ was pedling in 2012 as one of the big differences between MWO and MW4, for example. In this game, he said, it wouldn't just be a race to the top. And that was when MWO was going to be some highly immersive game with a working economy and dropships and all that jazz.

Ultimax, on 27 March 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

This, is actually what I meant.
Once you take the smaller, massively faster, more maneuverable mech and give it enough quirks - the mechs above it in weight suddenly lose.

There is no way a group of bigger mechs could realistically stop a wave of smaller mechs with that much speed & and HP who can use cover to close.
They don't even need to have as much armor as an Atlas, we saw how hard it was for ranged teams to stop Oxides in brawl rushes.
Thus, you cannot have both of them be equal in raw combat potential - one will usurp the other.

I'm not saying it makes sense, most of these issues are related to the first points you made about game design - but that doesn't change the fact that you can't actually make them equals - at some point one or more classes of mechs becomes obsolete.

With dozens of chassis and hundreds of variants in MWO, I don't think it's a given that there will always be a clear hierarchy of mechs based on weight class. I don't think there is one even now. As Gas Guzzler said, the Hunchback IIC is better than most IS heavy mechs. Which is kind of weird, because it's hard to find an IS medium that is better than most Clan heavy mechs.

But even if we're talking in general terms, I agree that perfect balance is impossible. Whether you're talking about lights vs mediums or Cataphracts vs Summoners, one will always be the other. However, there are three things to say about this.

1) You can always take steps to improve balance. For example, the difference between a Timber Wolf and a Cicada is considerably smaller today compared to before quirks. One may always be better, but you can make the differences smaller.
2) As you try to achieve perfect balance, you will typically accidentally make different choices OP or UP over time. So light mechs will accidentally be OP for a while, and then assault mechs accidentally get OP for a while, and so on. In MWO, light mechs have arbitrarily been UP since early 2013 (ECM Raven 3L) or perhaps forever.
3) There's also the concept of imperfect balance, where each choice has its drawbacks and you get a constantly changing meta as players adapt to the current status quo. So if everyone's playing heavy mech poptarts, then ideally there should be a good counter, like light mech brawlers. Which, in turn, prompts a new meta, like short range medium mechs with SRMs and SPLs. In MWO, the lighter mechs are almost completely gone from this picture. Yes, people are changing weapons over time, but they're not really switching weight classes. Light mechs are consistently the least popular and heavy mechs are consistently the most popular, in the solo queue. As for the group queue and FP, it's harder to say, because PGI has created arbitrary weight restrictions as a band-aid for good weight class balance.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 27 March 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

With dozens of chassis and hundreds of variants in MWO, I don't think it's a given that there will always be a clear hierarchy of mechs based on weight class. I don't think there is one even now.

I never said there would be a clear heirarchy, I said that there is no way to have all of them be equal.

The means one class - any class - of mechs with enough buffs would eventually rise to supplant others.

Just to clarify, what I'm arguing against is the notion that all mechs of all weight classes could be given "Equal raw combat potential".

This simply isn't possible, I'm not saying we couldn't make Lights & Mediums more powerful in combat than Heavies and Assaults - we very clearly could.

What can't be done, meaning it's not possible, is making them all equal.

Alistair Winter, on 27 March 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

As Gas Guzzler said, the Hunchback IIC is better than most IS heavy mechs. Which is kind of weird, because it's hard to find an IS medium that is better than most Clan heavy mechs.

This is primarily an issue based on tech advantages.

PPCs that work at every range bracket.
ERPPCs that don't have a negative heat per damage ratio
Save 2 tons on 2 PPCs
Ability to take both Endo & (superior) Ferro for the crit slot cost of just Endo
Ability to get 20+ DHS with only a 275 engine (this is impossible to do on an IS mech due to crit slot limitations)

Beyond that the HBK moves at 95KPH with about as perfect as hardpoint placement gets.

Alistair Winter, on 27 March 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

1) You can always take steps to improve balance. For example, the difference between a Timber Wolf and a Cicada is considerably smaller today compared to before quirks. One may always be better, but you can make the differences smaller.
2) As you try to achieve perfect balance, you will typically accidentally make different choices OP or UP over time. So light mechs will accidentally be OP for a while, and then assault mechs accidentally get OP for a while, and so on. In MWO, light mechs have arbitrarily been UP since early 2013 (ECM Raven 3L) or perhaps forever.
3) There's also the concept of imperfect balance, where each choice has its drawbacks and you get a constantly changing meta as players adapt to the current status quo. So if everyone's playing heavy mech poptarts, then ideally there should be a good counter, like light mech brawlers. Which, in turn, prompts a new meta, like short range medium mechs with SRMs and SPLs. In MWO, the lighter mechs are almost completely gone from this picture. Yes, people are changing weapons over time, but they're not really switching weight classes. Light mechs are consistently the least popular and heavy mechs are consistently the most popular, in the solo queue. As for the group queue and FP, it's harder to say, because PGI has created arbitrary weight restrictions as a band-aid for good weight class balance.

There's a lot to unpack here, I'll try to cover as much as I can.


1) Yes, you can take steps to improve balance - but balance does not really mean "all mechs have equal raw combat potential".

2) The question is whether they even should try to achieve perfect balance, and what that actually means. Giving all classes a valuable role with appropriate payout in CBills is balance - giving Lights the HP of Assaults is not.

Light mechs haven't been arbitrarily UP, they start out that way in TT. BT is a game based on Tonnage = Cost = Power.

This game lacks the "cost" part of the equation in a grand meaningul way, but it exists in small measure in parts of the game (FP drop decks, Team Queue tonnage, cost of mechs, etc.)



3) Light mechs are consistently the least popular because PGI implements changes that clearly nerf them and bases all rewards on raw damage (not even kills, just raw damage).

The problem here is that raw damage is raw damage, and lighter mechs do less raw damage than heavier mechs - but if you look at endgame reports it's not always the case that heavier mechs are doing more damage per ton of mech than their lighter counterparts.

So if a 20 ton Locust did 300 damage, it did 15 damage per ton of mech.
And if a 75 ton TBR did 600 damage, it did 8 damage per ton of mech.

In fact, the TBR would need to do 1,125 damage to achieve the same ratio (no easy feat).

The problem here is that what is rewarded is doing 600 damage vs. 300 damage as opposed to finding a way to reward based on some kind of tonnage linked output ratio.

Now if we really wanted to make things interesting, you could factor in a teamwide bonus based on that output ratio - so now your team gets an extra payout for being more efficient per ton.


Would that make them "equal in raw combat value"? No.
Would that incentivize lighter mechs? It would at least be worth a shot as it would clearly be a way of generating both individual and teamwide value by choosing a lighter tonned mech.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 March 2017 - 08:01 AM.

[Appogee]

I was disappointed to see that my best average damage and kills are in Assaults. They're not my forte, and I think they are a much blunter instrument than I'd prefer to be 'known' for.

(I have a lot more fun - and have to play a lot better to earn good scores - in Lights and Mediums.)

However, it seems MWO's rewards are weighted to damage. Assaults inherently put out more damage, and also have the armor to stay alive longer to deliver that damage, much of the time.

Sure, Lights with 6SPLs and high SRM splat loadouts can do a lot of DPS too. But over the course of 14,000 matches, apparently my Assaults have done it more consistently.

[Mcgral18]

Alistair Winter, on 26 March 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

It's ok though.

Light mechs are important for scouting. I've been told from credible sources that only light mechs can scout and shoot down UAVs and it makes them supremely valuable and stuff.

@Ultimax: I disagree. But I've had this discussion so many times, at this point, it feels like I'm participating in a written screenplay where we're all looking at the script, knowing full well what the other person is going to say next. I'm out.

Ultimax, on 26 March 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

Feel free to disagree with examples on how you think it could be balanced - I'm not some closed minded zealot.

I'm not talking role warfare, that could be done if PGI actually worked harder to bake that into maps and modes (and it looks like they are making some kind of attempt with Incursion). Having roles that are all valuable is quite a different thing from being equally value in raw combat potential.

I'm talking about how and why all mechs regardless of tonnage could be equally powerful in raw damage output and survivability.

RIP GodQuirk Cheetah
That was a good Light mech


He needed doubled leg structure, longer ranged, cooler lasers and...something else.
ECM still has the larger bubble, but that wouldn't do much for individual performance.


The cheetah has suffered multiple blanket nerds and has had all quirks removed, and yet is still the best Light around, for most roles.
That says something about the state of Light mechs...


Personally, I prefer the Viper, aka The Best Light Mech in the Game.

[mogs01gt]

I have mostly mediums and I pretty much quit playing them except for my Crow and ECM cicada. If they dont have high mounts, or run 90kph, they are getting to be hardmode.

[FireStoat]

The Marauder IIC just carried me out of Tier 3 and into 2 last night. My thoughts on the subject are...

I used cool shot 6's for an extremely cheap cost for the option of having a clutch moment of using my secondary, short ranged weapons + a PPC shot to end a melee before the enemy can return fire that one last time. If you can afford better cool shots - do it. If you're worried about Cbills, use the cheap one so that you aren't the one hitting the ground when you could have won.

I use UAV's sparsely as they cost 40k a pop and like, 3 ally mechs throwing missiles at 2 enemies for the duration won't cover what I spent at all. Instead, consider it an investment for improving your team's chance of winning by a percentage amount as they (and you) learn where the enemy is and where the hell you should be moving.

That said, it comes down to damage scored. The Marauder IIC has the ability to pack a 375 XL engine so it handles much like a Timber Wolf without skills unlocked (assuming your MAD IIC is Mastered). It packs incredible firepower that no one at tonnage 85 or under wants to trade against. If the goal is to consistently score well in winning matches or maintain your rank in losing matches, this mech provided what i needed to advance.

tldr; when MAD IIC goes on sale for Cbills at the early part of next month, buy one.

[Weeny Machine]

Khobai, on 26 March 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

medium mechs have always gotten pretty shafted in MWO

because heavies go nearly as fast with 30% more weapons and armor

....and have often better agility quirks - even better than lights

Take for example these

Lights:
Wolfhound 1A (no great mech)
Agility quirks: Turn Rate5%

Oxide
Acceleration10% Deceleration10% Turn Rate20%

Firestarter 9A
no agility quirks

Heavies:
BL-6-KNT
Acceleration25% Deceleration25% Turn Rate25% Torso Yaw Speed


MAD-5M
Acceleration30% Deceleration30% Turn Rate15% Torso Yaw Speed25%

Edited by Bush Hopper, 28 March 2017 - 11:23 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

@Ultimax: I feel like there's not a whole lot to say except I disagree with you on basically everything except some of your basic premises, such as the fact that perfect balance is impossible and there's no way to perfectly balance all classes (i.e. make every mech from every weight class perfectly balanced).

Point by point:

• Weight class balance is based on TT, where lighter mechs are worse than assault mechs. I consider this wholly irrelevant. MWO is an arcade version of TT where Clan mechs are no better or worse than Inner Sphere mechs.
  
• Rewards are largely irrelevant, because most players like winning and killing more than getting c-bills. And c-bills make no difference in tournaments. And many players have billions of c-bills anyway.
  
• Raw damage value isn't really the best indication of a mech's ability to carry its weight, I think. The best indication is WLR. Damage and K/D ratio are useful to look at, but a 6SPL light mech shouldn't necessarily be balanced to do the same amount of damage as a 5xAC5 Mauler or LRM80 Stalker.

But at this point, I think it's unlikely that we will get anywhere. You may still be open-minded, but unfortunately, I am not. I feel like I've seen all the arguments before and I'm not likely to be presented with any new information. Nor do I expect that my arguments are new to you. It would not be productive for either of us to continue this discussion, except as an exercise in rhetoric. So I'll have to leave it there. It's not you, it's me.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 28 March 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Athom83, on 27 March 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

the larger and less maneuverable it gets. The less maneuverable a mech, the more effective damage it takes.

Yup, that's why e.g. a catapult has a better profile than most mechs which way 15t less and on top of that great agility quirks. Just to name one example.

Also the life expectancy of lights goes dramatically down when people actually can aim. And that's in most cases no problem: the 35t mechs are huge

Also, streaks hardcounter lights. Which class has the same problem?

[Khobai]

Quote

Also, streaks hardcounter lights. Which class has the same problem?

streaks counter mediums pretty effectively too

not uncommon for me to come out of a scouting match with 700 damage using five streak6s

Quote

Also the life expectancy of lights goes dramatically down when people actually can aim. And that's in most cases no problem: the 35t mechs are huge

well thats another reason the game needs a structure increase

the first reason is to make critical hits matter. because crits dont matter when internal structure of a location dies faster than the equipment in the same location.

the second reason is because the structure increase should be tiered so lights get a bigger increase than heavier mechs. that would help even out the survivability issue.

lights would get the biggest increase
mediums would get the 2nd biggest increase
assaults would get the 3rd biggest increase
heavies would get the least increase because they need it the least

Edited by Khobai, 28 March 2017 - 01:04 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Deathlike, on 26 March 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

They don't like being touched in the naughty parts.

Apparently, putting the back to the wall is Lostech.

Ultimately damage is king and overexaggerating how much DPS a Light can do is what bad players do best.

I cored 3 backs in one plow of the potatoe fields Monday night. One was a Stock KDK3....he took a few alphas and by a few i mean 3 from a JennyIIC w/ the dreaded 6 sml pules lazers!!!!?!?!

They were launching their LRMS! No time to think ahead for me hunting dem because nothing should be able to hunt fatties.


Lights and some mediums are often hard mode...its fine. I kinda like it that way but there are a few Clan mediums that can pour out the dmg and the GRF is nothing to be messed with in a brawl. They hold there own just fine IMO even against big mechs.

Edited by Revis Volek, 28 March 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[CJ Daxion]

OP: you know it is funny, I often do a much better job of "carry" in lights and mediums.. I can't tell you how many times i feel like my piloting in a light really helped win the match, verse in assaults, which i typically don't do as well in.

So much so, that a while back i wanted to slow my progress into T2.. i was getting close and leveling assaults.. I said, this is no good, i'll be in t2 in no time! So i swapped to lights.. then on a huge win streak i got pushed into t2 far earlier than i would of if i had kept doing "averagely" in my assaults.


So basically what i am saying is, Maybe you are not a light/medium pilot.. Same goes with others, they do far better in them and suck in heavier mechs. It all really has to do with how people gel in certain mechs.

[Alexander of Macedon]

For some reason I get the exact opposite impression, where "stronger" performances in my heavies and few assaults are generally less generously ranked than "weaker" performances in my lights/mediums (talking pure damage natch). I dunno, gives off the impression that it accounts for more than raw damage in some sense, because a 500 damage game in a Locust is definitely harder work on my part than a 600 damage game in a Mad Cat.

Or maybe it's all psychosomatic.