162 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

So, just thought I would post an informative post, as this may not be common knowledge.

In the PTS for the skill tree, we got some quirk lists:
http://static.mwomer...an%20Quirks.pdf
http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf

These pdfs have engine to tonnage ratios (ETRs) for each mech. In order to compare the decoupled agility with live agility, you simply take the ETR, multiply it by the mech's tonnage, and you will get an engine rating that you can use on the live game to see what your agility will end up as.

For example: Take a SNV-C/B/Boiler, it has an engine to tonnage ratio of 3.5. 3.5*90=315. So a SNV-C after engine decoupling will have the same agility as a SNV-C with an XL315 on the live servers. The -B has a 10% accel/decel quirk on live which it loses on the PTS, so instead of XL325 agility with 10% accel/decel, it gets the same XL315 quirkless agility after engine-decoupling.

You can apply this to any mech to compare to the decoupled agility, but remember to add the quirks into the live values to get an accurate comparison. For instance, the SNV-1 has an ETR of 4, so it ends up with XL360 agility, which is nice, but on live it also has a 30% accel/decel quirk that it doesn't have anymore, but that is still a net buff because it gains better twist/turn agility.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

That would explain why the BLR-2C felt better than it did live, because it had the mobility of a 380 XL. They need to revisit some of those numbers, because some of these mechs got made more mobile when they shouldn't have (like the Battlemasters).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2017 - 10:23 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

That would explain why the BLR-2C felt better than it did live, because it had the mobility of a 380 XL. They need to revisit some of those numbers, because some of these mechs got made more mobile when they shouldn't have (like the Battlemasters).

Also, why does the AS7-S lose all of its substantial agility quirks and get stuck with 300 engine agility like the Dire and KDK-3.

Banshee does okay as it gets 400 level agility (lol) this should make Widowmaker happy actually.

Victor and Zeus also end up with 400 level agility.

Marauder gets 375 agility but loses its quirks. Haven't done the calcs to determine whether or not that breaks even but I'll assume it does more or less for typical Marauder builds, especially the slow ones.

KDKs get 325 level agility, aside from the -3 and -SB which get 300 level agility. Dires get 300 level agility.

Its also surprising that this was supposed to help low engine cap assaults, but actually ends up nerfing the SNV-B, C, and Boiler.

I would say the same about the Mauler, but most Maulers end up with sub 300 engines so its not really a nerf to give it 315 agility.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 28 March 2017 - 10:29 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Also, why does the AS7-S lose all of its substantial agility quirks and get stuck with 300 engine agility like the Dire and KDK-3.

KDKs get 325 level agility, aside from the -3 and -SB which get 300 level agility. Dires get 300 level agility.

AS7-S, KGC, and Whale all should have been set at KDK base level, the KDK has the speed advantage regardless of the variant so none of them needed to be buffed over things like the KGC or AS7-S.

Gas Guzzler, on 28 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Marauder gets 375 agility but loses its quirks. Haven't done the calcs to determine whether or not that breaks even but I'll assume it does more or less for typical Marauder builds, especially the slow ones.

Well, that's 25% more than the typical STD build has. So whether that matches with the current agility quirks or not, not sure (doubt it), but it will feel like the Timby regardless of what engine it runs so that is cool.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Actually, looking at the BLR-2C, it has 35% accel decel quirks, 35% turn rate, and 25% twist rate, so I'm betting that is more or less equal to a 340 BLR with those quirks, agility wise.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 March 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Actually, looking at the BLR-2C, it has 35% accel decel quirks, 35% turn rate, and 25% twist rate, so I'm betting that is more or less equal to a 340 BLR with those quirks, agility wise.

Ok, then it is actually less mobile in test outside of twist rate (which is equal). So it must've been the skill tree that made it feel better than live (which is highly possible).

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

Well, that's 25% more than the typical STD build has. So whether that matches with the current agility quirks or not, not sure (doubt it), but it will feel like the Timby regardless of what engine it runs so that is cool.

Timby is brought down to ~320 agility, and Night Gyr is at a 280 level of agility (ouch).

MAD-IIC is brought down to ~320 agility (also ouch).

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 28 March 2017 - 10:36 AM.

[MechaBattler]

So this is without the skill tree bonuses?

[xe N on]

Most 50 and 55 ton mediums are nerfed. Beside the huntsman and wolverine ...

Edited by xe N on, 28 March 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 28 March 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

So this is without the skill tree bonuses?

Of course. You can do your own skill tree calcs. Current skill tree ads 15% accel/decel, new skill tree adds 25%/25%, etc. This is just an explanation of ETR and how it translates to current mech performance.

But these can still be used for mech to mech comparisons.

Another thing to consider is the new skill tree is applied on these baseline stats, where as the old skill tree is applied to the actual engine values. So old skill tree on a SNV-C is +15% on the XL325 values, whereas new skill tree is +25% on XL315 values... so there is that too.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 28 March 2017 - 11:03 AM.

[Ultimax]

So let me get this straight.

We are taking what is currently a very straightforward and logical system that accounts for mech tonnage & engine rating to calculate twist speeds & linear speeds - where mechs have to pay tonnage to earn gains - and instead PGI is going to arbitrarily choose twist speeds for mechs?

How is that an improvement?


The Atlas that wants a 350 so it can twist faster in brawls gets pegged down to 300 twist speed, and the Kodiak gets a 325 twist speed?

I would probably drop every Kodiak build I have down from 375s and 380s to 350s and just pick up more guns or more heatsinsk because 4 KPH is not worth 4.5 tons.


This is really the wrong direction to take things, I really struggle to understand what the value is in having mechs be slower and less able to avoid/spread incoming damage while simultaneously incentivizing them to pack on more guns due to these changes.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 March 2017 - 11:06 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 28 March 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

We are taking what is currently a very straightforward and logical system that accounts for mech tonnage & engine rating to calculate twist speeds & linear speeds

You mean a logical system where an Adder and Stormcrow have the same agility because they run the same speed......color me confused.

[xe N on]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

You mean a logical system where an Adder and Stormcrow have the same agility because they run the same speed......color me confused.

Yes, Adder will greatly improve with the new system ... oh wait, they don't. Their engine to mass ratio is 6.5 which means they will handle like they have a 215 engine. That is a great improvement coming from a 210 engine ...

The difference will be, that other 35 ton mech will handle like the adder currently ...

Edited by xe N on, 28 March 2017 - 11:15 AM.

[Mcgral18]

That explains why the WubShee felt so similar
A 403.75 engine rating
Makes up for some of the lost skills



Also LOL at the Banshee 3S
It just used the stock engine (IE, gimped)
But, still buffed to his normal cap of 345. PTS to 356.25

[Racerxintegra2k]

Ultimax, on 28 March 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

So let me get this straight.

We are taking what is currently a very straightforward and logical system that accounts for mech tonnage & engine rating to calculate twist speeds & linear speeds - where mechs have to pay tonnage to earn gains - and instead PGI is going to arbitrarily choose twist speeds for mechs?

How is that an improvement?


The Atlas that wants a 350 so it can twist faster in brawls gets pegged down to 300 twist speed, and the Kodiak gets a 325 twist speed?

I would probably drop every Kodiak build I have down from 375s and 380s to 350s and just pick up more guns or more heatsinsk because 4 KPH is not worth 4.5 tons.


This is really the wrong direction to take things, I really struggle to understand what the value is in having mechs be slower and less able to avoid/spread incoming damage while simultaneously incentivizing them to pack on more guns due to these changes.

This is how i feel. PGI trying to fix something that isn't broken again.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 28 March 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Yes, Adder will greatly improve with the new system ... oh wait, they don't. Their engine to mass ratio is 6.5 which means they will handle like they have a 215 engine. That is a great improvement coming from a 210 engine ...

You forget that tonnage also impacts that baseline. I jumped to the same conclusion before I remember there is another factor at play here....Still, that has nothing to do with the concept, that is something that PGI arbitrarily set, which means it could easily be fixed.

In other words we are missing a part to the equation with these values, or at least I assume that is the case because my Cheetah definitely did not handle that bad in the PTS accept in accel/decel (granted I had full mobility skill tree).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2017 - 11:21 AM.

[xe N on]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 March 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

You forget that tonnage also impacts that baseline. I jumped to the same conclusion before I remember there is another factor at play here....

In other words we are missing a part to the equation with these values, or at least I assume that is the case because my Cheetah definitely did not handle that bad in the PTS accept in accel/decel.

Maybe I understand something wrong here, but ...
... there is an engine to mass ratio that is e.g. for the GRM-3M: 5.25
... this engine to mass ratio defines, which agility values PGI used for their "base line" adjustments. For the GRFM-3M: 275 engine rating.
... the right side of the sheet displays "old" and "new" movement parameters.
... the "old" values are based on the used engine to mass ratio. The new values are chosen to be close to this values or calculated by some sort of equation.
... this finally means that the mech in the "new" version basically will handle like the "old" version with the corresponding engine, e.g. for the GRF-3M like using a 275 engine.

Am I wrong?

Edited by xe N on, 28 March 2017 - 11:28 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 28 March 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Maybe I understand something wrong here, but ...
... there is an engine to mass ratio that is e.g. for the GRM-3M: 5.25
... this engine to mass ratio defines, which agility values PGI used for their "base line" adjustments. For the GRFM-3M: 275 engine rating.
... the right side of the sheet displays "old" and "new" movement parameters.
... the "old" values are based on the used engine to mass ratio. The new values are chosen to be close to this values or calculated by some sort of equation.
... this finally means that the mech in the "new" version basically will handle like the "old" version with the corresponding engine, e.g. for the GRF-3M like using a 275 engine.

Am I wrong?

I don't think that is the full picture, because somewhere else there is another factor otherwise they made Spiders pretty much as agile as Locusts. Either way their numbers were off from what they should've been.

If that is exactly how it works (in that tonnage doesn't actually factor in, that is just something factored into their ETR number), then they set the baseline waaaaay too low for lights and meds and set some of the assaults too high.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 March 2017 - 11:43 AM.

[FupDup]

I'm kind of thinking that it would be easier to use a system where they set an XML value that makes a mech's agility behaves as if it has a certain engine rating, even if they don't use that engine. E.g. I think most 35-ton mechs should act like they have a 300 engine or so.

We already have a similar thing where some mechs use this method to improve their hill climbing profile, like the Gargles.

[Weeny Machine]

Ultimax, on 28 March 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

So let me get this straight.

We are taking what is currently a very straightforward and logical system that accounts for mech tonnage & engine rating to calculate twist speeds & linear speeds - where mechs have to pay tonnage to earn gains - and instead PGI is going to arbitrarily choose twist speeds for mechs?

How is that an improvement?


The Atlas that wants a 350 so it can twist faster in brawls gets pegged down to 300 twist speed, and the Kodiak gets a 325 twist speed?

I would probably drop every Kodiak build I have down from 375s and 380s to 350s and just pick up more guns or more heatsinsk because 4 KPH is not worth 4.5 tons.




This is really the wrong direction to take things, I really struggle to understand what the value is in having mechs be slower and less able to avoid/spread incoming damage while simultaneously incentivizing them to pack on more guns due to these changes.

Have you ever considered that light mechs and medium mechs only strength is speed and agility? They buy these traits by sacrificing armour, structure, dps/big alphas, heat disipation etc

Why should heavies and assaults have several times their armour and weapons and the other things I mentioned while easily negating the only advantage the lights and (fast) mediums have: trying to get out of their firing arc for at least a meaningful amount of time?

The sick agility of nearly all heavies is the reason why the heavy queue is dominating all other queues
Considering this heavies and some assaults should become less agile than on the live server.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 28 March 2017 - 12:02 PM.