156 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Well, at least they cant be used in ranked play or most competitive leagues so it really won't have that much of an impact anymore.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 April 2017 - 06:29 AM, said:

P2W as you cant do that as well without the hero omnipods.

It is not P2W, as it is not better than regular laservomit Hellbringer. Simple logic.

[Athom83]

Snazzy Dragon, on 05 April 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

and thus, you are not equipped to understand what exactly makes torso mounts on the hellbringer a meta feature, especially with the new p2w pod

Yes, poor me. I can shoot at the UAVs, snipers up in the mountains, fast lights trying to circle me, rapidly retarget, etc. I seriously don't care about "meta". "Meta" doesn't change the fact a lot of the people clinging to "meta" to become competitive really don't understand how to play well. I've scored top of my team when that team was mocking my build (not LRM boating, or las-vomit, or PPC/Gauss).

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Seriously bro?
You said it yourself in two posts on this page alone.
Pods which are improvements over Free options, only obtainable with $$
You do understand that, correct?

I understand that I said you can somewhat improve a chassis by using pods by allowing more options. I also understand, which you seem to not, that they're not so special they make the standard pods/chassis completely unusable. I main War Thunder. There was quite a heavy P2W there because of some of the premium prototype vehicles that could be bought when there wasn't a sufficient equivalent in the free trees. However, that was rectified when they eventually added in more/new vehicles to the standard tree that was pretty much equivalent to the premium version/vehicle. If you really wan't to talk about P2W, then look at World of Tanks. The premium and IRL cash only vehicles are outright better than just about anything they could face. You have to use premium currency to get the good ammunition, the good equipment, and the good "modules". Anything beyond T5/T6 is behind such a massive premium time paywall, most players never get that far without hundreds/thousand of hours.

And some of the free pods for most of these mechs are better than the pods in the Heroes.

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Fully torso Helbie, which means an extra heatsink because no armor wasted on an arm
Which means the premium robot has both more cooling, AND higher mounts than their peasant counterpart.

You are of course assuming more variants/pods aren't coming with the timejump that will bring the same hardpoints. The Hellbringer D will have at least 9 energy harpoints stock. And if you're removing all of your arm armor while using torso weapons only mechs... just... good job there bud.

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Is this gonna be like your 18 DPS rac5 again?

Is this going to be like your "Omnimechs are useless" and "IS is overpowered" again?

Now, I never said that the Hero Pods shouldn't be able to be purchased. I just said that it isn't P2W. You should be able to purchase just the pod if you want, at a marked up MC cost and not for C-Bills. If the Hero is sold at 5000 MC, 1/8th the cost is 625 MC. Maybe, the pods can be sold individually at 750 MC a piece, a 20% mark up. Also, they could be in Supply Caches, and rewards in events (but rare).

SmokedJag, on 05 April 2017 - 06:07 AM, said:

Doesn't change that high core hardpoints on a 'Mech with ECM is unbeatable at what it does. The Hellbringer can do a lot of things but little else that's not light can peak over a hill like a Hunchback that also can't be detected on sensors.
Making that pay only is bad. Very bad. The way to go about it is what they're already doing with the loyalty pod becoming available for Cbills.

And the pod that lets you be invisible is "free" (in game currency). The argument being discussed about (but being missed) is that the heroes/hero pods are in of themselves overpowered and P2W. This argument is just stupid as it is assuming everyone will just min/max and pay money to use the Hero RT pod and just win the everything. Are some hero mechs in game outright more powerful than their standard variants? Some. Does this make them P2W, debatable. My reasons for saying no in that debate is because it also requires the skill, knowhow, and teamwork to do well. You're not going to be seeing these heroes standing alone against a half-dozen enemies and walking away. If it did, then its definitely P2W.

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

I dont like that, because legomech is all Omnimechs have going for them over the freedom of Battlemech construction (engines that arent exact multiples of tonnage, dynamic ES/FF, etc), so i dont like the idea of penalising using Legomech to its fullest.

How is it penalizing them? They aren't getting negatives for being able to stack weapons however they like. They simply are not getting MORE bonuses on top of being able to do that. I swear, if you guys don't get to "have it all" sometimes.....

[The6thMessenger]

PGI is literally trying to make money, Online Game and microtransactions iz wat gives them da monies, among other things.

I don't agree with this pay wall at all, i think it's bad business practice. But compromises can be made, just put these hero omnipods as MC -- cheaper than buying the whole thing, making it more accessible, but still requires premium currency. Win-Win, or rather neither side loses badly.

e.g. KFX-P Side Torsi could cost 60 - 90 - 120 MC a piece. At 90 MC, it costs about 50% more than the normal omnipod when converted to C-Bill equivalent. So it's still far cheaper to buy the whole hero. Yet the individual omnipod is much more accessible should the rest of the hero is not desired.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 April 2017 - 06:48 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Prosperity Park, on 05 April 2017 - 06:32 AM, said:

Guys, hate to break it to you, but Hero's won't sell enough if they are just cbill bonus Mechs and lack actual uniqueness (since they are available for CBills). Most people will just buy it for CBills.

This means players who play the most have the least incentive to spend money on the game, since they already have Cbills : they have no need to buy a C-Bill booster mech, and they have the Cbills to buy it without MC.

Hero Token has been a highly requested feature
Let you favourite mech become a Bonus chassis.
Also remove any P2W pay walled chassis


There are options to retain micro transactions...but honestly PG.i would probably make more money for a 2-4-8-10$ spread.
But, prices have been high from the get go.

[Widowmaker1981]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

stuff, that is largely wrong, and overly combative

I dont normally do this, but im going to suggest you stop attempting to claim you know more about the game than several people whos stats are enormously better than your own, in a game where it is possible to look up stats. An average match score of 181 last season doesnt suggest that what you are currently doing works very well.

Bishop Steiner, on 05 April 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

How is it penalizing them? They aren't getting negatives for being able to stack weapons however they like. They simply are not getting MORE bonuses on top of being able to do that. I swear, if you guys don't get to "have it all" sometimes.....

I dont like it because its trying to suggest that Omnipods are not 'meant' to be swapped, when in this game that is literally the only point of Omnimechs, when compared to Battlemechs.

[Mcgral18]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

You are of course assuming more variants/pods aren't coming with the timejump that will bring the same hardpoints. The Hellbringer D will have at least 9 energy harpoints stock. And if you're removing all of your arm armor while using torso weapons only mechs... just... good job there bud.


Is this going to be like your "Omnimechs are useless" and "IS is overpowered" again?

.

Where are these 9 hardpoints? It's not only numbers which matter, but location.
Why would you strip a shield arm for something more useful?
You do know how to build good robots, right?



You seem to have me confused with someone else
Clams are superior to the Sphere, but an 18 DPS rac5 defies any critical thinking method.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

It is not P2W, as it is not better than regular laservomit Hellbringer. Simple logic.

What if ATM's are OP on release? Then it IS better. What if lasers get nerfed and all you can do is SRM brawl. Then it IS better.

By the same token, ER PPC Gauss on a Night Gyr or Timber is better than a laser vomit Hellbringer, and a laser vomit Ebon is better than a laser vomit Hellbringer, so laser vomit Hellbringer isn't actually P2W as it doesn't become the best at a heavy mech role with an extra side torso hardpoint.

Not disputing that it makes the Hellbringer better though.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 05 April 2017 - 06:32 AM, said:

Guys, hate to break it to you, but Hero's won't sell enough if they are just cbill bonus Mechs and lack actual uniqueness (since they are available for CBills). Most people will just buy it for CBills.

This means players who play the most have the least incentive to spend money on the game, since they already have Cbills : they have no need to buy a C-Bill booster mech, and they have the Cbills to buy it without MC.

For a F2P game, anything that is locked behind real money (like hero mechs) that can actually be used in game (we're talking about mechs here and nothing else) against other people doesn't qualify as a "F2P" type of transaction.

Try to wrap your head around that first before commenting on it.

Also, even if the move is lateral (like Huggin is P2L), it's not an option accessible to all w/o real money. The problem lies is when the option is superior to the rest... which then becomes a real P2W argument that you'll have a hard time arguing against.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 April 2017 - 07:08 AM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 April 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

What if ATM's are OP on release? Then it IS better. What if lasers get nerfed and all you can do is SRM brawl. Then it IS better.

By the same token, ER PPC Gauss on a Night Gyr or Timber is better than a laser vomit Hellbringer, and a laser vomit Ebon is better than a laser vomit Hellbringer, so laser vomit Hellbringer isn't actually P2W as it doesn't become the best at a heavy mech role with an extra side torso hardpoint.

Not disputing that it makes the Hellbringer better though.

Instead of worrying about what ifs, ground yourself to the present. We know nothing about ATMs, and from the TT stats, they are not very impressive. OP asked for a different yet viable Clan Hero config without being OP, and I delivered. That's all that matters.

Deathlike, on 05 April 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

For a F2P game, anything that is locked behind real money (like hero mechs) that can actually be used in game (we're talking about mechs here and nothing else) against other people doesn't qualify as a "F2P" type of transaction.

Try to wrap your head around that first before commenting on it.

Most popular F2P games do not paywall their champions/heroes/tanks/mechs. Alas, MWO is a "Freemium" game.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2017 - 07:08 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

I dont normally do this, but im going to suggest you stop attempting to claim you know more about the game than several people whos stats are enormously better than your own, in a game where it is possible to look up stats. An average match score of 181 last season doesnt suggest that what you are currently doing works very well.



I dont like it because its trying to suggest that Omnipods are not 'meant' to be swapped, when in this game that is literally the only point of Omnimechs, when compared to Battlemechs.

That's bullocks. That would fly IF it actually nerfed the Mech. It doesn't. It does give a small (since set of 8 quirks are almost always tiny anyhow) incentive/reward to actually run them in a semi stock nature. Optimizing the hardpoints is ALREADY a bloody damned reward in itself.

The way you guys want things, there is literally no reason to EVER use it in any but the most comp optimized configuration... so why the hell even offer them in "stock" pods... with what you guys want, we might as well just have each chassis just shipped with "Meta Pods" installed, further stifling any reason for diversity.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 05 April 2017 - 07:13 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Instead of worrying about what ifs, ground yourself to the present. We know nothing about ATMs, and from the TT stats, they are not very impressive. OP asked for a different yet viable Clan Hero config without being OP, and I delivered. That's all that matters.

I mean, you made the Hellbringer a better brawler but current games standards. Now it can mount 5 SRM racks like a Summoner!! That's P2W/P2Optimize just like giving it a 54 damage laser vomit alpha instead of 47 damage laser vomit alpha.

You literally can't make a hero omni-mech be useful and not P2W. The C-bill solution is the best solution.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 April 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

I mean, you made the Hellbringer a better brawler but current games standards. Now it can mount 5 SRM racks like a Summoner!! That's P2W/P2Optimize just like giving it a 54 damage laser vomit alpha instead of 47 damage laser vomit alpha.

You literally can't make a hero omni-mech be useful and not P2W. The C-bill solution is the best solution.

Look at it this way. Brawler Hellbringer is still not gonna be as meta as laservomit Hellbringer. Which means it is not powercreeping. On the other hand 6 high mounted energy points is definitely powercreeping the Hellbringer.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2017 - 07:17 AM.

[Lehmund]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

If you cant see how giving the Gargoyle torso hardpoints, the Ebon Jaguar the ability to run 2 large ballistics in torso sections and increasing the Hellbringers high mounted torso energy points to 6 are outright improving the chassis, i dont know what to tell you.

at least in the case of the Hellbringer i guarantee you the absolute best build for the chassis will include the hero pod. Thats not opinion, its fact. (im not going to get into a debate about the other chassis pods being included in the absolute best build, because they involve opinions on what type of build is best for that chassis)

I hesitate to call it pay to win, as such - because you could easily make the argument that a Night Gyr (for example) is a superior mech to the Hellbringer, and as such its not possible for any Hellbringer to be P2W. Its definitely pay to optimise though, and thats a slippery slope.

edit: quoted the wrong person

Geez. Yeah, those are good points. Giving the EJag pilot the ability to sport 2 Gauss Rifles in those high mounts (for example), is indeed new and powerful when hill humping. But you can also do that with most Hunchback IIC out of the box, without it being Hero mechs. I'm just using this as an example of course. Does it mean if you run that EJag you'll win more games? Probably not. There are HUGE amounts of mechs and mech builds on 65 ton mechs that can definitely compete with that EJag build either up close and far away.

Bottom line is, you've got the same equipment tonnage in that mech than other EJags and other mechs have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Omnimechs can still mix and match so you can your ECM Hellbringer loaded with 1 more torso mounted laser point. You can now do a bit more point damage per laser alpha, and generate more heat doing it too. I rather use my Hellbringer with nothing in the arms, 4 ER Meds and 2 UAC 5s. Way cooler and I can destroy you in DPS.

I think this is a case of panic. Definitively some mechs will overall stand out in power over the same chassis. Sometimes, hardpoint combos make one particular mech more powerful than others, but until mechs hit the battlefield and get tested with builds, calm down and breathe guys.

It really isn't P2W unless PGI starts giving Hero mechs bonus pod space for same armor and tonnage or something silly like that.

[Athom83]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

An average match score of 181 last season doesn't suggest that what you are currently doing works very well.

However it does suggest that I don't play religiously to "git gud" and I often take several month long breaks between major updates. Also, that average takes into account the matches where I get swarmed by the enemy from the get go and get taken out imediately to get 50 score and those matches where I get 400 odd score when I last long enough to get damage out. The prior happens more than the later. Although, I am having more and more of those fun matches where I hold of multiple enemies alone now that I'm playing the game more. Its almost like I'm improving the more I play *gasp*.

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

I dont like it because its trying to suggest that Omnipods are not 'meant' to be swapped, when in this game that is literally the only point of Omnimechs, when compared to Battlemechs.

Maybe another option would be to tie quirks to the Pods themselves instead of to a mech/set.

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

Where are these 9 hardpoints? It's not only numbers which matter, but location.

1 Head, at least 2 in each torso, and 2 in each arm.

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

You seem to have me confused with someone else

Ah yes, I do apologies for that one.

Mcgral18, on 05 April 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

Clams are superior to the Sphere, but an 18 DPS rac5 defies any critical thinking method.

Despite the fact you need to facetank and that you'll overheat/jam before you can put that DPS to use? And that you'll miss a lot of those shots? Or the fact that there are other weapons with a much higher DPS per ton already in the game?

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

Most popular F2P games do not paywall their champions/heroes/tanks/mechs. Alas, MWO is a "Freemium" game.

The problem with being "Freemium" is if you actually had a solid game AND had things worth paying for that is worth the money.

The only thing that happens to be is mechs with the occasional lobby. FP anyone? I wouldn't pay a dime to see more maps in the vein of Old Terra Therma or Alpine either.

[Tarogato]

Athom83, on 05 April 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

You are of course assuming more variants/pods aren't coming with the timejump that will bring the same hardpoints. The Hellbringer D will have at least 9 energy harpoints stock. And if you're removing all of your arm armor while using torso weapons only mechs... just... good job there bud.

HBR-D also has four plasma cannons, which are 3-ton energy weapons that aren't being included with the tech update. They're basically flamer-PPCs if I understand correctly, and I'd pit them as rather unlikely to make it into the game at any point, as they're either not really that useful, or compete too strongly with the flamer itself. There's also no energy weapons we can submit in their place that takes up 3 tons (unless you put a PPC and left an empty hardpoint on the stock config, per arm).

Quote

And if you're removing all of your arm armor while using torso weapons only mechs... just... good job there bud.

Yes, that's the optimal way to build many mechs. Especially the Hellbringer. You apparently don't understand why people do this, but suffice it to say that a LOT of people do this, and it is for good reason. If you don't understand why, or you honestly think that arm weapons are better, than you're in kind of a "not qualified to comment on topic" corner of the room.

Edited by Tarogato, 05 April 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tarogato, on 05 April 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

Yes, that's the optimal way to build many mechs. Especially the Hellbringer. You apparently don't understand why people do this, but suffice it to say that a LOT of people do this, and it is for good reason. If you don't understand why, or you honestly think that arm weapons are better, than you're in kind of a "not qualified to comment on topic" corner of the room.

The fact that it IS the "optimal" way to run is pretty damn sad in and of itself, but admittedly also a different subject. Honestly the only place I find mechs with arm weapons to be situationally superior, is on some jumpers as it does allow you to depress or elevate fire your torso weapons might not be able to (and when solo to hit those UAVs since your team may be balls useless for that), allowing me to make attacks I simply could not with torso weapons. But that is very situational, and mostly of use in the chaotic scrum of QP, not in FW or organized team warfare, so much..

That said, if you remove the PPCs from a Warhammers arms, I have to believe you also stick puppies and kittens into burlap sacks and toss them into rivers.... (but I may be biased on that particular subject)

[Almond Brown]

Hit the Deck, on 05 April 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

It's an ugly solution which could work.

Also makes an Omni Hero less interesting so there would be less incentive for people to buy it.

PGI could always come out with a new line of Mechs. They can call them "Brave" Mechs. Not quite "Hero's" but an absolute smidgen better (somehow) than other chassis in their Class and then there is no way they can be called PTW. LOL!

Here is a thought. Make a new chassis, make it bland and indifferent to its brethren already in game. Call it a "HERO" Mech and see what response the "always, every f'ing time, it's PTW" crowd has to say about them then... A litmus test of sorts, to determine if in fact, that "Salt" is the only element left on the BattleTech Universes periodic table at this point.