14 replies to this topic

[Wesxander]

The flags are not able to be counter jammed or BAP overridden. They extend to far out with ecm something like 300 m. This in turn prohibts streak mechs with bap from being able to fire. Can't jam it and in some cases cannot cap it when enemy is sitting on top of it firing. Needs to be changed. Just had mission where enemy sat on one flag and could not fire due to this. Even though equiped with BAP and none them had ecm.

[tokumboh]

Isn't this a case of rock paper scissors: PPC/Gauss mets to the face would have dislodged them oh and where was the VIP mech?

I find that most times people spend so much time trying to fight the opposition and no much actually trying to find and kill the VIP mech. I have even watched a person go for a kill on a stick rather than attempt to hit the VIP mech.

[Tesunie]

tokumboh, on 30 March 2017 - 11:50 PM, said:

Isn't this a case of rock paper scissors:

I too have found this to be rather unbalancing. I tend to use LRMs within a build with other direct fire weapons. I just had an Escort match where my teammates sat near a sensor tower, but didn't cap it (I don't know why). I had to stand on the other side of the docks on Crimson just to be able to use my LRMs. (Thankfully I don't boat, so I did very well still with my lasers.)

This isn't a case of Rock, Paper and Scissors, it's a case of "disabling weapon systems". And those said systems have no defense to counter this "new threat". It isn't like it's on a mech and BAP or TAG can counter it. This is a case of "you can't counter it unless you capture it", and sometimes, you just can't. Not to mention, there is also a difference between countering it (BAP, NARC or UAV and being outside it's effects) and having to sit on the point for x seconds (close to 30 seconds maybe?) to be able to disable it. Oh, and if you get hit by enemy fire, doesn't that also stop the capture?


ECM as a whole kinda needs a rework. Information warfare should be about information, not locks and disabling weapon systems. Information is: Sharing locks with teammates. Damage of enemy mech. Weapon loadout of enemy mech. Enemy mech classification and type. Designation tag (A,B,C, etc). It should even knock out advanced guidance systems (Artemis, NARC, TAG), but leave the base guidance systems alone. (I will comment that, a delay to being able to get normal locks wouldn't be too bad though. Maintains an element of ECM's stealth, without having immunity to specific weapons.)

We have AMS and soon to be LAMS for actual countering of missiles. ECM shouldn't be doing that job as well.

[tokumboh]

Tesunie, on 31 March 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

I too have found this to be rather unbalancing. I tend to use LRMs within a build with other direct fire weapons. I just had an Escort match where my teammates sat near a sensor tower, but didn't cap it (I don't know why). I had to stand on the other side of the docks on Crimson just to be able to use my LRMs. (Thankfully I don't boat, so I did very well still with my lasers.)

This isn't a case of Rock, Paper and Scissors, it's a case of "disabling weapon systems". And those said systems have no defense to counter this "new threat". It isn't like it's on a mech and BAP or TAG can counter it. This is a case of "you can't counter it unless you capture it", and sometimes, you just can't. Not to mention, there is also a difference between countering it (BAP, NARC or UAV and being outside it's effects) and having to sit on the point for x seconds (close to 30 seconds maybe?) to be able to disable it. Oh, and if you get hit by enemy fire, doesn't that also stop the capture?


ECM as a whole kinda needs a rework. Information warfare should be about information, not locks and disabling weapon systems. Information is: Sharing locks with teammates. Damage of enemy mech. Weapon loadout of enemy mech. Enemy mech classification and type. Designation tag (A,B,C, etc). It should even knock out advanced guidance systems (Artemis, NARC, TAG), but leave the base guidance systems alone. (I will comment that, a delay to being able to get normal locks wouldn't be too bad though. Maintains an element of ECM's stealth, without having immunity to specific weapons.)

We have AMS and soon to be LAMS for actual countering of missiles. ECM shouldn't be doing that job as well.

In all fairness there will always be a LRM good/bad debate and indeed I think that Escort on some Maps makes little sense because the VIP Mech should go either beyond the sensor screen. I have won Escort on Crimson Straits by being aggressive it is the one time when I think an aggressive push make real sense because getting beyond the sensor curtain means that you can attack the VIP mech. many time when I have escorted the VIP mech people have stayed on one side of the sensor curtain trading and that makes no sense. A a Tier 4 it does seem that there are too many passive players and Escort is basically crap for that reason.

[Tesunie]

tokumboh, on 31 March 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

In all fairness there will always be a LRM good/bad debate and indeed I think that Escort on some Maps makes little sense because the VIP Mech should go either beyond the sensor screen. I have won Escort on Crimson Straits by being aggressive it is the one time when I think an aggressive push make real sense because getting beyond the sensor curtain means that you can attack the VIP mech. many time when I have escorted the VIP mech people have stayed on one side of the sensor curtain trading and that makes no sense. A a Tier 4 it does seem that there are too many passive players and Escort is basically crap for that reason.

I believe that the VIP has ECM built into his mech. I could, of course, be wrong here.

Sometimes you need to be aggressive, other times you do need to wait a bit. But, aggressiveness does tend to turn a match very quickly.

[tokumboh]

Tesunie, on 31 March 2017 - 06:47 PM, said:

I believe that the VIP has ECM built into his mech. I could, of course, be wrong here.

Sometimes you need to be aggressive, other times you do need to wait a bit. But, aggressiveness does tend to turn a match very quickly.

The VIP Mech is an uparmoured Atlas D-DC so it has ECM active. it is all the more reason to seek it out since in a crowd of mechs it can be hidden

As i said in defending the VIP mech If I played a a brawling mech I have tended to stay close to the VIP mech and body guarded it sharing armour if it was exposed and fighting anything that gets near. I have had games where it appears that the majority seemt o play skirmish and I have even had a game where I was the only one escorting the mech and found the whole of the opposition waiting for me as we crested the saddle and my team were happy fighting and squirrelling in the city somewhere.

The reality is you need people just to not be stupid and to communicate and there have been some great games where that has happened but there have ben too many that have been absolutely rubbish

[Tesunie]

tokumboh, on 01 April 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

As i said in defending the VIP mech If I played a a brawling mech I have tended to stay close to the VIP mech and body guarded it sharing armour if it was exposed and fighting anything that gets near. I have had games where it appears that the majority seemt o play skirmish and I have even had a game where I was the only one escorting the mech and found the whole of the opposition waiting for me as we crested the saddle and my team were happy fighting and squirrelling in the city somewhere.

Okay, before I start, realize I'm not against actually standing with the VIP and defending him (usually by making a shield of mechs in front of him, where you predict the VIP to go).

I would like to mention that sometimes, there is a tactic called "drawing the enemy away". There is a way to defend the VIP by being somewhere he is not. This can draw the enemy away from the VIP, leaving the VIP free to go along his (very drunken) way. If the enemy are elsewhere and they do not know where the VIP is, than he sometimes can be even safer than if he was in the middle of your team.

This is a risky defense, because if a single light mech finds him alone, that could spell disaster for the VIP. But, if he slips by unnoticed a lot of people wouldn't even look for him, possibly being too busy fighting to notice he's almost to his pick up point.


Another thing my unit has noticed in quick play has been that it is still often easier to kill the enemy team first, then get an auto win if we are escorting, or if we aren't escorting, to still kill all opponents (or at least most of them) and then go for the VIP.

Often times, it's best to shoot at what can shoot you. If you try to take down the over armored (for good reason) VIP, often times your whole team will die before he goes down. So that is why you will see entire teams ignore the VIP till last, but still normally stay close. (But I wanted to just present a reason as to why some teams may not stay closer to him as well.)

[Insufficient Skill]

Wesxander, on 29 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

The flags are not able to be counter jammed or BAP overridden. They extend to far out with ecm something like 300 m. This in turn prohibts streak mechs with bap from being able to fire. Can't jam it and in some cases cannot cap it when enemy is sitting on top of it firing. Needs to be changed. Just had mission where enemy sat on one flag and could not fire due to this. Even though equiped with BAP and none them had ecm.

One trick ponies fail? Want some cheese to go with your whine?

[Tesunie]

Insufficient Skill, on 01 April 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

One trick ponies fail? Want some cheese to go with your whine?

It does completely disable an entire weapon system in that situation. I don't think it seems fair that any weapon system should get shut down. Hindered isn't an issue, but being unable to even shoot your weapons... seems a bit much to me.

It's a weapon in the game and people do boat it (even if not advised). It should be usable no matter what game mode one drops into. That is becoming the problem with game modes that have ECM just being dropped into the matches. If it can be countered like current mech mounted ECM, that's one thing. When it can't be countered at all... That's starting to feel a little unbalanced to me.

I've actually got more on this subject here, if you wished to read on it. I mentioned more of my concepts on what could be done to ECM directly, and more depth to my reasons as to why it isn't balanced well.

Or you can read this spoiler for a copy and paste, but if you do that you'd be missing out on a reasonably good conversation.

Spoiler

Sooo...

We just don't like locking weapons at all?

Another source of non-counterable ECM being dropped into a game mode. Oh, and if it wasn't enough, lets make it have a bigger affect.

Now, I don't always use LRMs, and when I do I'm not boating them. But, what this is telling me is to just pack up any LRM considerations completely for this game mode and Escort...

Thanks!
(Thankfully I always bring plenty of back up weapons, but it's nice to know where my love for LRM stands now.)



Instead of fixing ECM to be more balanced, it seems like it's just being added in more often. Information warfare should not remove weapon systems from the game. Deny me INFORMATION, not locks. Don't let targets under ECM be sharable. Let it disable more advanced systems, such as Artemis, TAG and NARC when under it's effects. Let it hide mech information and it's damage chart. Even give it a "delay before you can lock" when you can see them to maintain an element of stealth to it (or leave that part to the up and coming "stealth armor").

It shouldn't out right shut down currently two weapon systems completely within this game. LRMs are a weapon. I know they are hard to balance well due to it's utility aspects. SSRMs have their diverse spread that helps counter them. There is also AMS and soon to be LAMS.

A delay to being able to acquire a normal lock (that can't be shared) for ECM would maintain an element of stealth as well as still provide protection against things such as SSRMs, as it would prevent their target (unless they were looking at them for a short while) from being able to retaliate immediately.

ECM shouldn't provide immunity to locks if someone is just standing out in the open. It shouldn't matter what the source producing the ECM is. I've only presented one possible aspect of rebalancing ECM here. Many more suggestions lay around. It needs to be addressed!

(And sorry for the rant, but seriously. I feel ECM is massively out of whack. And now it's being spread as core aspects of more game modes. First it was Escort with the sensor towers. Now it's also this new game mode?)

[Insufficient Skill]

Tesunie, on 01 April 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

It does completely disable an entire weapon system in that situation. I don't think it seems fair that any weapon system should get shut down. Hindered isn't an issue, but being unable to even shoot your weapons... seems a bit much to me.

There's a reason, most lore mechs are equipped with different weapon systems. It is your choice to boat and it brings you tangible benefits in many situations. Deal with the ones, where it balances out. Or bring ASRMs instead of Streaks. Problem solved.

When I choose to boat SPL on my GAR/EXE and I get picked apart by a light bit by bit, because he is able to stay out of my range, then that's purely my fault because I choose to equip my mech in a way that benefits in some situations (brawl; DPS, DPT, DPH) while I sacrifice the ability to function outside of, what is it... 240m for cSPL?

You make your choice - now be a person and accept the consequences.

To be more clear, let me emphasize my point by modifying your quote a bit by bolding:

Tesunie, on 01 April 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

It does completely disable an entire weapon system in that situation.

If those ECM beacons would disable any weapon system, yeah, you might have a point. But since it only discourages boating streaks, I'm all for it.

Edited by Insufficient Skill, 01 April 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Tesunie]

Insufficient Skill, on 01 April 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

There's a reason, most lore mechs are equipped with different weapon systems. It is your choice to boat and it brings you tangible benefits in many situations. Deal with the ones, where it balances out. Or bring ASRMs instead of Streaks. Problem solved.

When I choose to boat SPL on my GAR/EXE and I get picked apart by a light bit by bit, because he is able to stay out of my range, then that's purely my fault because I choose to equip my mech in a way that benefits in some situations (brawl; DPS, DPT, DPH) while I sacrifice the ability to function outside of, what is it... 240m for cSPL?

You make your choice - now be a person and accept the consequences.

To be more clear, let me emphasize my point by modifying your quote a bit by bolding:

If those ECM beacons would disable any weapon system, yeah, you might have a point. But since it only discourages boating streaks, I'm all for it.

I'm not arguing about the fact one should take alternative weapons to help compliment other weapons, such as lasers to go with SSRMs and LRMs, etc, but you are talking about a weapon system that costs weight and making it completely useless. What would you say if, say, those sensor towers somehow turned off all ACs? All that weight disabled and unusable.

I'm also not going to argue about the ability to aim. That's a pointless gesture and largely irrelevant to things. People will take what they take. You wont hear much against the consideration that people probably should take weapons that can be aimed, if for no other reason than for the ability to accurately target and damage specific locations of a mech.

However, no one thing should disable weapon systems. That's not information warfare (what ECM is suppose to be), and instead just "weapon choice" denial.


It largely sounds like your entire argument is "it's only one weapon" and "they should learn to aim". However, I might remind you that anyone could be dropped into any game mode at any time they queue up for a match. Would you like it if you couldn't use half or even any of your mech's weapons for an entire match (I'm exaggerating a little here) all depending upon what game mode you dropped in? At that point, that person should just about power down and disconnect from the match, as they will be useless and they know it.

Yes, I'm hyperboling (I just made this word up) this just a little to try and make the point. I understand making choices and having consequences to those said choices*, but this is a game, and it seems unfair and unbalanced to me to essentially exclude (by my current count) 3-4 (situation depending) weapons in the game (LRMs, SSRMs, NARC and TAG is situational), with no way to essentially counter them.


I must ask, where you in the game and/or recall the days when nothing could counter ECM except for ECM? And back then the Raven, Cammando and Atlas were the only mechs with ECM at the time? With no real way to counter ECM, it ran around supreme for some time. Raven packs being nearly unstoppable. Well, we now have uncounterable ECM back in the game again... This time it just isn't chassis mounted, it's "game mode mounted".

I know I'm not alone when I say that ECM doesn't feel right. It is much better than it has been in the past, but it does too much. Many people wouldn't mind a change to ECM, and the new game modes are just making it more and more apparent that these changes are going to be needed if things continue as they seem to be progressing. I mean, stealth armor is soon to be in the game. What is that going to do that ECM doesn't already do? Hide your mech so it can't be targeted? Oh wait, ECM basically already does that for you for the most part... That's just one up and coming example.

My first post in this thread outlined what I feel could be a reasonable balance for ECM. I know there are others out there which are also viable options that could be considered. But, I feel it's about time ECM gets changed. It's well past time. It's unbalanced, and if it is going to continue to be placed into additional game modes (such as Escort and the new one as excellent examples), than it will need to have it's fundamentals altered to be better balanced and more fair to all players and levels of play. Want something to screen for missiles? That is what AMS is suppose to be for, not ECM.



*

Spoiler

Example: I have made my choice to have a 180m weakness when I take LRMs. If I boat them, I commit to that choice and should be prepared for that weakness. If I take SSRMs, I have made the choice to not be able to aim for specific components, have to wait to get a missile lock to shoot, and have close range. If I boat them, I should be aware of these weaknesses. However, that doesn't mean I should have situations where I'm completely useless, because of a game mode...

[Insufficient Skill]

Tesunie, on 01 April 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'm not arguing about the fact one should take alternative weapons to help compliment other weapons, such as lasers to go with SSRMs and LRMs, etc, but you are talking about a weapon system that costs weight and making it completely useless. What would you say if, say, those sensor towers somehow turned off all ACs? All that weight disabled and unusable.

If that's for specific parts of the map: Yes, all for it. Live, Live, learn and conquer. And don't bring so many streaks, if you cannot bear the consequences.

I'd even go further and say: Randomly let sandstorms move around on Canyon Network and Tourmaline, inhibiting Lasers (you know, optics, sand particles etc..). This way, you encourage diverse loadouts. That's what this game is missing.

[Tesunie]

Insufficient Skill, on 01 April 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

If that's for specific parts of the map: Yes, all for it. Live, Live, learn and conquer. And don't bring so many streaks, if you cannot bear the consequences.

I'd even go further and say: Randomly let sandstorms move around on Canyon Network and Tourmaline, inhibiting Lasers (you know, optics, sand particles etc..). This way, you encourage diverse loadouts. That's what this game is missing.

I wont argue that there should be a place for more diverse loadouts (because I agree and use them myself), but game mode and map shouldn't determine if someone will be able do anything or not. Not to mention, we are talking about a core game mechanic, which has been feeling very overpowered for some time now, despite it being reeled back and nerfed a few times.

ECM, by lore (which I do like to follow when possible), doesn't disable LRMs nor SSRMs. It does disable their more advanced guidance systems. If I can see a target, I should be able to lock it. Maybe not know what I'm locking. Maybe not be able to share the lock I've got. But I should be able to lock it.

But, I know people will still want ECM for it's more stealthy effects, and I can't blame them. This is why I recommend personally a delay in the ability to lock. If an ECM mech is going to stand out in the open, than I should be able to lock onto them and punish them for doing so. However, if they are being sneaky and darting from terrain piece to terrain piece, than it should help with that.


I will admit, I don't mind the concept of sand storms. I'd see it not hindering a weapon system directly though (though interesting idea it is), I'd have it hinder visual abilities, making one more dependent upon sensors (hinder sniping). That could be interesting... Maybe?

One effect I've love to see... a good old rainstorm. Just, pelting layers of wet running down your screen (though it would have to be reasonable, so as not to be too disruptive). I don't know why, but I think it's been a missing element for some time. Give me a good thunderstorm even!

[Fox the Apprentice]

Tesunie, on 31 March 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

[...]
Not to mention, there is also a difference between countering it (BAP, NARC or UAV and being outside it's effects) and having to sit on the point for x seconds (close to 30 seconds maybe?) to be able to disable it. Oh, and if you get hit by enemy fire, doesn't that also stop the capture?

5 seconds to uncap, 5 seconds to cap -> 10 seconds total.

Getting shot will not stop the progress, but an enemy entering the cap area will stop progress.
There was a bug, not sure if it's fixed, where a teammate entering the cap area would also cause the cap to stop.

Tesunie, on 31 March 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

ECM as a whole kinda needs a rework. Information warfare should be about information, not locks and disabling weapon systems. Information is: Sharing locks with teammates. Damage of enemy mech. Weapon loadout of enemy mech. Enemy mech classification and type. Designation tag (A,B,C, etc). It should even knock out advanced guidance systems (Artemis, NARC, TAG), but leave the base guidance systems alone. (I will comment that, a delay to being able to get normal locks wouldn't be too bad though. Maintains an element of ECM's stealth, without having immunity to specific weapons.)

We have AMS and soon to be LAMS for actual countering of missiles. ECM shouldn't be doing that job as well.

If ECM will no longer counter locks, then I feel AMS should be buffed *slightly*. As it is, LRMs should be taking tag anyways.

A better method of handling this might be to make NARC and TAG actually give decent bonuses to the person using them. Y'know, promote teamwork instead of just straight damage.

I'd like the radar towers in escort to only provide target info, but not to provide any ECM effect (neither to enemies nor to allies).

[Tesunie]

Fox the Apprentice, on 10 April 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

5 seconds to uncap, 5 seconds to cap -> 10 seconds total.

Getting shot will not stop the progress, but an enemy entering the cap area will stop progress.
There was a bug, not sure if it's fixed, where a teammate entering the cap area would also cause the cap to stop.

The problem is when the enemy team is on that point, or that point is below them (River City docks). It's basically suicide to try and get it, and I wouldn't ask anyone to do that.

River City has the larger problem, due to the multi-level of it and two info nodes that are right on top of the other. But, I see it as a growing problem for more than just assault, but the soon to be released new game mode (which I can't recall what it's called).

If ECM is going to be tossed into game modes, I just feel it is going to need some changes. Not to mention the up and coming Stealth Armor...

Fox the Apprentice, on 10 April 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

If ECM will no longer counter locks, then I feel AMS should be buffed *slightly*. As it is, LRMs should be taking tag anyways.

A better method of handling this might be to make NARC and TAG actually give decent bonuses to the person using them. Y'know, promote teamwork instead of just straight damage.

I'd like the radar towers in escort to only provide target info, but not to provide any ECM effect (neither to enemies nor to allies).

I wouldn't be opposed to that honestly, though a well positioned AMS system actually can take down up to 15 LRMs for just a single system. Just FYI and that's "at best possible". But I do agree that ECM shouldn't be anti-missile like, when AMS should be anti-missile like...

I think the problem with Info towers providing only information is that, it would lose value later in the game, making it pointless to recap the towers. With the ECM effects added in, it has more of a reason to be capped as your team moves forwards. It provides protection.



I've got a slew of ideas for ECM in another thread, with a link 3 posts up from this one. The concept with it is that ECM blocks information, not locks. The short version is, locks would still be possible (though maybe delayed?). Designations (A-B-F-etc) would not show, damage display wouldn't show, mech type and weapon loadout wouldn't shot and locks on targets under ECM are not shared with teammates. The concept is it removes information (hard to call a target if there is no designation), but if (for example) an LRM boat can see an ECM mech themselves, they can get a lock still and shoot like normal (but effects like TAG, NARC and Artemis would be "turned off" against them).




Edit:
I meant to add in another concept of mine, revolving around LRM damage rewards. This concept is to actually reward players who spot for LRM mechs, including with TAG and NARC.

Edited by Tesunie, 10 April 2017 - 10:02 AM.