24 replies to this topic

[Racerxintegra2k]

Can we go back to the old tonnage limits? Its killing casual units that just want to group up and play with friends. Anytime you get 4+ people the group breaks up because your forced to run mechs you don't want to.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah :\ it is the main thing that deters me from the basic grouping system really.

[Nameless King]

My group has no problem playing with the tonnage limits, we take turns runnning heavier mechs if needed.

[Racerxintegra2k]

King Alen, on 16 April 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

My group has no problem playing with the tonnage limits, we take turns running heavier mechs if needed.

That's awesome for YOUR group, but for the casual group that just wants to hang out... rotating mechs is obnoxious.

For example .. say you have 1 hour to play .. you may only drop twice by the time 7-8 people sort out what mech they want and who has to drop tonnage. As a solo you can drop 6-7 times.

[Nameless King]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 April 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

That's awesome for YOUR group, but for the casual group that just wants to hang out... rotating mechs is obnoxious.

For example .. say you have 1 hour to play .. you may only drop twice by the time 7-8 people sort out what mech they want and who has to drop tonnage. As a solo you can drop 6-7 times.

Most of my group is casual and we still rotate while being able to play 6+ matches an hour.

[Shifty McSwift]

King Alen, on 16 April 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

Most of my group is casual and we still rotate while being able to play 6+ matches an hour.

By the definitions of MWO that isn't a group its a unit. The basic group lobby system is the "looking for group" queues and lobbies.

[Nameless King]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 April 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

By the definitions of MWO that isn't a group its a unit. The basic group lobby system is the "looking for group" queues and lobbies.

Well if you are talking about random people gathering for a group then that is another story.

I play with many people not in my unit and still have no issues, people need to learn how to play more then one wieght class I guess.

[Shifty McSwift]

King Alen, on 16 April 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

Well if you are talking about random people gathering for a group then that is another story.

I play with many people not in my unit and still have no issues, people need to learn how to play more then one wieght class I guess.

That would be a fair call if it applied to all weight classes. Not everyone can go an assault but you can make a squad of 12 lights or mediums, or mostly heavies etc. The weight restriction does have its problems.

[Nameless King]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 April 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

That would be a fair call if it applied to all weight classes. Not everyone can go an assault but you can make a squad of 12 lights or mediums, or mostly heavies etc. The weight restriction does have its problems.

Not really, 12 assaults should never happen anyway.

[Shifty McSwift]

King Alen, on 16 April 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Not really, 12 assaults should never happen anyway.

Only in the same sense that 12 lights or 12 mediums shouldn't happen either though, by what is supposed to be the mixed class basic game type.

[Nameless King]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 April 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

Only in the same sense that 12 lights or 12 mediums shouldn't happen either though, by what is supposed to be the mixed class basic game type.

Nope 12 lights and 12 mediums I have no problem with, but is also extremely rare.

[vandalhooch]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 April 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

Can we go back to the old tonnage limits? Its killing casual units that just want to group up and play with friends. Anytime you get 4+ people the group breaks up because your forced to run mechs you don't want to.

In other words, you think it's more fair for your group to handicap any team they are made a part of.

[Shifty McSwift]

If instead of a weight class for example, the group was actually restricted by a minimum set of class requirements I would agree, 2 or 3 players in a group may have no restriction (or just a basic weight restriction), but 4 or more would start having a required set of roles they need to fill, requiring players to either specialise or switch up roles more directly.

People being able to play multiple classes and roles well is good practice in general, but at the same time some people are better at some roles than others, or may have restrictions. In particular you don't want to force people to do things they don't want to do or can't and/or don't want to do well in.

[Bulletsponge0]

King Alen, on 16 April 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Not really, 12 assaults should never happen anyway.

in group drops last night, I ran up against a team that had 9 assaults... all marauder IIcs.. 3 different 4 man teams all with 3 madIIcs... things didnt end well for my team

[Racerxintegra2k]

vandalhooch, on 16 April 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

In other words, you think it's more fair for your group to handicap any team they are made a part of.

I dont see how my group would handicap the other players on the team, please elaborate. The way it used to be allowed for a 8 man group to grab at least 4 heavies and 4 mediums even if they were lighter heavies or a couple assaults and a couple lights. Which honestly was closer to 4 assaults, 4 heavies/mediums and 4 lights. Now you are terribly gimped if you have 7 friends with you.

[vandalhooch]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 April 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

I dont see how my group would handicap the other players on the team, please elaborate. The way it used to be allowed for a 8 man group to grab at least 4 heavies and 4 mediums even if they were lighter heavies or a couple assaults and a couple lights. Which honestly was closer to 4 assaults, 4 heavies/mediums and 4 lights. Now you are terribly gimped if you have 7 friends with you.

Now, I'm confused. What exactly are wanting to bring back? Is it that you want the tonnage limits gone or returned to previous values?

Previous values produced way too many large groups with mostly assaults.

[Monkey Lover]

Pgi doesnt care about larger teams. Russ has said it before large teams was only 2%(as i remember) of the population.

So basically they nerfed every larger team because they didn't want to balance the comp teams. Don't plan on it ever getting better.

vandalhooch, on 16 April 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

Now, I'm confused. What exactly are wanting to bring back? Is it that you want the tonnage limits gone or returned to previous values? Previous values produced way too many large groups with mostly assaults.

Large group have zero assaults now...We might run 1 but we have to take a few locust to do it. lol what is "too many"? 3-3-3-3 was fine.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 16 April 2017 - 11:08 AM.

[dario03]

You know, if we just balanced the weight classes out this wouldn't be such a problem.

[Coolant]

i do think anyone should be able to take any mech in a match regardless of weight or number in group. MW4:Mercs you could take any mech. You could set up a server with tonnage limits but that was rarely done.

Edited by Coolant, 16 April 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Afraid the tonnage limits are here to stay. With good reason, too.

The current tonnage limits actually made the group queue much more palatable for the vastly more numerous smaller groups. They still lose handily to coordinated teams, too. Though that's not the meat of the issue.

The reason tonnage limits exist in their current form is so large teams can't fill themselves entirely with heavies. Heavies being the dominant class in MWO for several years now. You give large teams any more tonnage you're not going to see people trading up their heavies for assaults, while keeping the same number of mediums and lights.

No team actually needs assaults. Assaults tend to restrict the mobility of a group and the extra hitpoints are misleading. They take more hits because of their profile and acceleration. They're also much more vulnerable on the move. Usually it's not tonnage well spent when the tons matter.

The short version is because heavy mechs tend to have enough tonnage payload to reach practical limits in hardpoints, heat or criticals that limit their effectiveness. Adding more tons once you're at that point generally doesn't open up many new options. Adding those tons to a medium or a light mech does, which is why the OP complains about people being forced into mechs they don't want to play.

Medium and lights mechs are harder to use than heavies and require different team tactics. I've seen a 12-man blob of mediums and lights run over an assault lance in the first minute of a game because they're just not fast enough to link up with the rest of the team, then proceed to mop up the rest before the 4 minute mark. It works because they can move faster than the enemy team can consolidate. You're at a disadvantage if you're trying to do peek-trades or facetank heavier mechs, but that's meant to mitigate the inherent advantages of a large group. A large group can plan for certain tactics, take complimentary mechs. A PUG group can't because by definition nobody knows what it'll have.

If you're not using those advantages that's not the system's fault. Other people do and that's how it's balanced.

TL:DR Tonnage limits are intended to create the situation that's being maligned - preventing large groups from being packed with heavy mechs. Heavies are the dominant class. Generally there's nothing to be gained by having more assaults, which is why it's not a disadvantage for any large group until their average weight is in the medium class range.