82 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 05 June 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Can anyone else bring up weapons and circumstances for weapons in BT that are similar in nature?

Much was refined with the TRO3039 - for example the 150mm 10shot cassette for the Hetzer.
The cooling issues of the Lord's Light were also redacted from the Panther.

When considering "lore" i also look first were this specific weapon is also mounted. The LL is also to be found in the Grand Dragon (although older TROs place a Lord's Thunder there) - the Torso PPC of the Lancelot also uses the LL

- The Mongoose CT MLAS has issues with the cooling jacket after several discharges there is a constant heat build up

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 05 June 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

Much was refined with the TRO3039 - for example the 150mm 10shot cassette for the Hetzer.
The cooling issues of the Lord's Light were also redacted from the Panther.

When considering "lore" i also look first were this specific weapon is also mounted. The LL is also to be found in the Grand Dragon (although older TROs place a Lord's Thunder there) - the Torso PPC of the Lancelot also uses the LL

- The Mongoose CT MLAS has issues with the cooling jacket after several discharges there is a constant heat build up

Ooo, much fun!

I'm gonna start with the Mongoose here and see how well I can see how it might fit from a gameplay/Sim perspective.

The Mongoose's issue would never come up during an MWO match, but a BT sim? I imagine it certainly could come up during a campaign, particularly on defense during a siege (where enemies have cut off supply lines and are trying to weed out the resistance through attrition), or during an offensive campaign as either a scouting/raiding party or in the ongoing skirmishes with the defense as attackers wouldn't have the repair bay advantages of the defense until reaching and securing a base.

(Unlike PGI, I'm pretty damn sure a planetary defense cannon isn't going to just "LET" you land while shooting aimlessly at one spot in the sky; especially since attacking Jumpships is universally taboo, the only target the planetary cannons WOULD have are the damn dropships!!!)

So, between the three sources I have, the CT laser's cooling jacket deteriorates rapidly, disintegrating by100 discharges. I imagine this would translate in tabletop as 50 uses causing "Poor Cooling Jacket" for the CT MLAS, and 100 uses bringing about "No Cooling Jacket." Of course in real time this can easily be much more gradual, from a stark 0.2 increase with every 10 shots (leading to the poor CJ's +1 at 50 and no CJ's +2 at 100) to the subtle +0.02 on every shot until the 100th shots.

In exchange, the Mongoose gets "stationary" accuracy even while at the full 129.6 kph. (In other words, no accuracy penalties for movement at all on the two center-mounted weapons [CT and HD], apparently regardless of what is mounted there.. In theory this means the CT/Head lasers could, possibly, have a chance of landing hits during a sprint; but this depends entirely on animations.)
One reason I love Mech Factory as a resource is it includes a readout for each variant and sometimes the overall story is updated or reworded. Sometimes from the TROs, sometimes from novels that feature the mech.

The 66B still has the same accuracy benefits even though the ML is changed for an ER LL (so this isn't weapon specific but mech specific) and identical flaws. The shots you can get away with is drastically fewer (before the cooling jacket is fried.) I figure about 25 (4x the heat in the weapon, divide uses compared to MLAS by 4).

In all situations, the excess heat supposedly interferes with the sensors, although one of them very specifically mentions it interferes with BAP's sensors ). It also makes it uncomfortable in the cockpit; that's easy enough to simulate.

I also went on to the 67 which loses the endo steel, but has no differences to the actual size of the 'Mech (unlike most times where they go from a base model and make an Endo Steel version, typically the mech gets larger with the new skeleton and as such, the larger body then has room for additional equipment to keep its weight about the same). It also loses ferro, downgrades everything, loses the BAP and tonnage for it. All in all, this one sucks since there's no reduced size to go with it.

68 replaces the BAP with an SRM-2.
69 ...doesn't exist? Must be a 'fill in' gap; BT is notorious for this because it's ideal that fans fill these in.
70 packs in 2 flamers in place of the BAP, taking out the Head laser and stuffing the flamers into the arms.
It makes a jump to 76... And with 3050, "Mongoose" without a BAP is almost unheard of again.
And I'm not concerned about the 86, but evidently the Mech trait of increased accuracy and disintegrating cooling jackets still exist even for the CT-mounted Light PPC.

I'm iffy that it can't decide whether the 67 and 68 are field refits or new variants; by description they are simply field refits (change your mech in mechlab; here's a kit for common refits) but they are numbered as if they are whole new production line variants.

----------

Lancelot's older models have an impressive targeting system and it was proving to be the mech that would replace the Rifleman in anti-aircraft roles, but the Amaris Coup and subsequent Succession Wars put an end to that.

(Side note: Just discovered this and thought it was awesome. As a Liao pilot I frequently play Liao in Megamek; in mock battles for our concepts of BT sim campaigns, we have put several battles in populated areas with terrorized civilians, crashing cars, etc. I have on several occasions hidden suicide bombers within these just to keep our Davion player on his toes... And now reading Lancelot's bio on Mech Factory, it turns out during Word of Blake, Liao employed suicide bombers! ******* brilliant! [because I came up with it completely on my own suspecting that Liao might resort to it and god damn they do in fact resort to that tactic!!! This makes me feel freaking awesome because here I am using conjecture and **** by taking existing lore and working things out, and hot damn it actually happens in literature I have yet to read [and since it's beyond where I'm interested, probably never will]).

The Lancelot can highlight projectiles coming directly for it so that the pilot can react. "Most 'Mech and tank targeting systems can monitor up to 20 targets simultaneously, but the Starsight Model 3 can manage up to 50 depending on the situation."
Kinslaughter PPC is known for insulation problems.

The Lancelot's Lord's Light PPC (LNC25-02) evidently is taken from the large stockpile of PPCs intended for use on the Panther, evidently for the very reason of its slow energy build-up as it makes the weapon more manageable for the LNC25-02's 19 single heatsinks. It doesn't mention whether or not the Sunglow "Heavy" (large) Lasers are any weaker (as in say duration, shots to get rated damage, etc.) compared to the Krupp Model 32 Large Lasers, but I'm generally inclined to believe it. Since the torso PPC cannot be used in punching and doesn't have its cables running along joints, the cooling tubes can't get pinched and so it doesn't have the same flaws as the Lord's Light does for the Panther. But I don't think it qualifies as a Mech issue as the issue with the Panther's Lord's Light specifically mentions smaller cooling cables compared to most PPCs and that is what gets pinched.

The 3025 (02) model switches to the Hawkeye B3 targeting system, there's no remarks on it either way.

The 03 goes back to Krupp Starsight, but model 1. Those after go back to model 3. No mentions on specifics about model 1.
----
And the Grand Dragon now.

Why does this get me so excited?
Sadly Sarna had nothing on the specifics, but it's a Lord's Light 2 ER PPC.

3025, the Grand Dragon is a relatively new design that is untested. It has a standard PPC, unnamed. Trying the TROs... It says it's in 3025, but the original doesn't have it. Checking revised.. Not there. 3039 doesn't have it either. TRO 3060 has it though.
3050, the Grand Dragon is a resounding success, though Kurita does not abandon Dragons, keeping both designs in high use.

No mention of issues with the Lord's Light 2.

--
So that was an interesting trek. There's a number of mechs with neat sensors. Crabs are among them, and their high quality sensors actually last through 3025. They also have many redundancies (7 of them) to keep them operational when they take damage. The issue is they need those redundancies because the sensors are prone to taking hits. So the sensors can take about 7 hits total, but shots tend to 'hit' sensors more often than anything else. So if I litter the mech's hitboxes with 'sensor' crits, we'd easily be able to simulate this.

It's ability to predict enemy actions when they are out of sight and sensors, however, is a bit harder. Maybe a 'ping' with what they are actually doing.. possibly with an intentionally made margin for error for balancing reasons where occasionally an incorrect 'ping' is given.

Edited by Koniving, 06 June 2017 - 11:04 AM.

[Koniving]

The Wolfhound's dramatic pose in 3039 looks awesome...
Continuing on Panthers...
3039 does appear to have lots of mention that they fixed the heat problems of the 8Z's Tronel Large Laser by simply replacing it with the Lord's Light PPC for the 9R, a choice made for the much more satisfactory heat to damage performance of it. It doesn't mention The L'sL PPC's issues (or appear to retcon them as I would think that might require specifically mentioning them first and how it was dealt with). It seems more like it doesn't even come up.

Panther 8z on Mech Factory has the exact same info and entry as 3039. The 9R Panther on Mech Factory is using the full readout from 3025. It doesn't appear to be retconned so much as it is just flat out unmentioned. It does have a little caveat that the major differences between the 9R and the 8Z beyond weapons is that the 9R has an inferior communications system and larger fire control computer compared to the 8Z (since this doesn't take 'weight' in the mech...and size doesn't really mean a difference in ability.. this is an odd but 'different' detail.)

[Karl Streiger]

Had the Tronel LL heat issues?
I thought it was replaced because it was to complicated

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 06 June 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Had the Tronel LL heat issues?
I thought it was replaced because it was to complicated

It fails to mention complicated either (just meaning I don't think they dug into past TROs for it.). It isn't saying "heat issues" as in extra heat or some sort of flaw. Just after a really awful battle, they re-evaluated the terrible heat to damage (and range) performance of the large laser on the Panther and then changed the 'standard' to the Lord's Light after evaluating a much better performance...which doesn't make any sense. 8 heat, 8 damage.
PPC is 10 heat, 10 damage. It's a 1:1 ratio. Yeah... I think the 'lore' just fails here if the DCMS' complaint is heat to damage ratio. I think the issue is probably range. 450 meters isn't much when compared to the range of the PPC.

But if I had to guess as to why they are saying "damage", one could also factor in that lasers are supposed to diminish in effectiveness in hazy environments (rain, smoke, literally any concentration of particles, especially sand because it turns to glass as the lasers hit; imagine shooting into a huge puff of sand kicked up by a mech's leg and it turning into glass in the air.) Ironically this version of laser lore agrees with how PGI has made lasers, though technically this is written before the distinction of pulse lasers as a separate entity which then claims pulse lasers are like machine guns. (In this shown version, it is unclear if they are describing two variations of standard lasers or genuinely describing standard and pulse lasers, but in the year this was written, "Pulse" lasers did not yet exist in the ruleset as weapons.)

According to the 3025 lore for the Panther, the 9R has 3 heatsinks in the right arm alongside the PPC, all 3 dedicated specifically to the PPC (reducing the heat, thereby making it 7 heat that ever gets "registered", 10 damage which then makes sense of course this effectively means your 13 SHS act as 10 SHS for the rest of the mech. Until you use the right arm in melee, and then the PPC cooling cables get pinched and it becomes 8 heat per shot). The rest of the Lord's Light fluff about low heat is the delayed time to fire, causing less of a spike of heat by gradually building up half the heat before the actual shot (so in this case if 7 heat is all you would ever see due to the dedicated heatsinks, you'd have a gradual build up of 3.5 heat over 2 seconds while charging, and then the 'firing' spike of 3.5 heat; or however one might decide to split it.)

In comparison if we use the Atlas K's example of it being "almost 4x" stronger than a medium laser "per discharge" (which we know 8 is not 4x stronger than 5 or even close, but 4 is almost 4x stronger than 1.25, making the Atlas K's ER LL fire two shots to the Atlas D's ML and its 4 shots.), and simply assume the Tronel Large Laser fires twice, it'd be 4 damage for 4 heat per discharge compared to 10 damage for 7 heat per discharge, even if you technically have a drop in firing rate... of course this also means a drop in exposure -- something you want for a support mech.

According to Mech Factory's heatsink placement the SHS are all in the STs for the 9R. You could still technically dedicate those 3 heatsinks, but um... that means they aren't in the arm with the PPC like the lore says. MUL has nothing on placement, so I suppose the placement is actually open to interpretation; I'll be moving the heatsinks to the arm personally.

Anyway, it also says they replaced the 8Z's armor with a new composite for better protection....
8Z armor: 119.
9R armor: 104..

"Better durability." Um, yeah. Catalyst probably should have compared them first before spouting that one. That's like a PPC and a medium laser difference there.

Edited by Koniving, 07 June 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Just more food for though:
It seems that HBS want to use different manufacturers per weapon - with the option to upgrade stuff (or at least it looks like that)
For example the Standard PPC is the Magna Hellstar
with 50dmg 25 heat 90;360;540 range, 3 recoil and 10 instability points
The Tiegard has a accuracy modifier of 1 and 5 levels (up to 6)
The Donal deals more damage 52-60 but is less accurate
The Ceres Arms causes more instability (more impulse - kinetic impact)

The values are not much over the top- 60 to 50 sounds much but its hardly the strike of a small laser - and you won't hit as often. The Ceres Arms (Vindicator) might make it a very good option.

Now the question is how are those values "backed" by lore informations?
or how to explain that different behavior

my ideas:
OK Ceres Arms is simple, they don't accelerate the particles to the speeds of other PPCs but either use other ions instead of protons and release them faster - "bigger diameter" for the accelerators or (in the case of my takes to the PPC uses more accelerators)

Tiegard - might accelerate less particles much much faster maybe combine it with a cyclotron or bend the ions to increase the lenght of the accelerator without increaseing the bulk.

Donal - more particles with standard acceleration but the "beam" last longer.

[Koniving]

The small laser that I had on my Awesome did 20 damage while the PPCs did between 50 and 60 damage, my Urbanmech did 75 damage for the AC/20 and 20 but sometimes 25 or 15 damage with the small laser.

My Panther did between 50 and 60, but for some reason couldn't match the range of the enemy Awesome 8Q (despite direct line of sight, he was out of my range but I was well within his range and backing away did nothing to change that; then again this same enemy Awesome 8Q did a headshot from across the map, instantly killing my largest support mech almost half an hour before I could even find identify him; I thought it was a Gauss Rifle, and I spent a good 20 minutes or so trying to figure out "Is that a Gauss Rifle, a large laser, or a PPC?" Its range was incredible, we couldn't even see that far.

My Awesome 8Q reads that it does 50 damage, but I once made 70.

All the damages are pretty showboat-like in nature. I noticed between graphics and sound, they want the weapons to feel visceral and powerful. I imagine the damage values are an attempt to make you feel powerful. (FF7 and later having you deliver damage over 1,000... while in past games it capped at 999, and games before that capping at 99. More recent FF games allow you to go past 9,999 damage for a single strike so that you 'feel' powerful when outside of numbers, chances are the characters from older games would mop the floor with ones from the newer games. "You can do 10,000 damage in a single strike? I can destroy planets and the sun, so what if I could only do 3,127 damage in a strike.." "You think that's bad? I killed God and I can only do 100 damage with the same sword that I did it with.")

The damage values I currently see are:
Small Laser: 20 (triggers during melee).
Medium Laser: 25.
LRM: 4 (multiplied by missile count)
Large Laser 40
PPC 50
AC/20 (Hunchback) 100
AC/20 (Urbanmech) 75
MG 3 (x5)

Side note: Locust versus Jenner.
Locust rushes forward, MGs and medium laser. Some MG damage (at 2 damage each), medium laser is dodged.
Jenner retaliates, jumps behind Locust and unloads ML and SRMs into Locust's back. Locust is insta-gibbed.
All I know is I wish they'd make the option to "replay" the turn in real time (the walking and shooting) so we'd get to see it. That was one of my favorite features of Mechwarrior Tactics.

As for the whether they are lore based or not, it is difficult to say. I do know that the damage classes of weapons have always been stated as "loose" categories, so a "20" is general, it might do 18, might do 22, etc. (This is why the heat system I came up with gives a bit of 'play', so more DPS-oriented [lower damage per actual bullet/beam], if you keep the weapon from overheating by using controlled bursts [timing your shots] instead of firing at the maximum firing rate, you can manage to slip in past the weapon's 'damage class', while a more FLD version of the same weapon would either have some sort of flaw or might fall short of the rated damage. I'm doing my best to avoid doing 'lower' damage by playing with numerous other options.)

In BT, they are still within a turn-based system with time slices, so there is only so much that they can do to give variety, especially with the front loaded weapons like PPCs. For example they can't really mess with "firing delays" because a turn is a turn and making it so that you queue your PPC to fire this turn and then wait for the next turn to actually fire...well that sucks. So the Lord's Light definitely cannot exhibit a prolonged firing delay. It can certainly do less heat. "More damage" is definitely an easier thing to do, and I'm glad that they are doing something else to counter the benefits because I believe in "Give and take," I will give you this advantage, but will take something in return.

(A reduced accuracy could translate slightly as a 'firing delay; the 'newer' 90s lore of PPCs is that the accuracy penalty at sub-90 meters is due to a PPC's field inhibitor which basically keeps the weapon from reaching full strength too fast [lets face it, it's a charge up mechanic despite how "PPC Capacitors" also charge up to do even more damage.
So in other words, less accurate might not be

"I'm going to aim at the center torso... Ooops,destroyed that building 30 meters to the right. My Donal PPC needs better sights."

But instead,

"I see him, priming [charging] my Donal PPC... that's right, hold still you sorry potato, it's almost ready... No-no-no don't you, don't *Fires* you dare! Damn! He changed direction right as it finally fired.")

This Mechwarrior 5 mockup by PGI, during the time when Harebrained Studio's / Smith and Tinker / FASA / Battletech creator guy Jordan Weisman was actually working with PGI.

Though black and white, you can see the PPC bars "brighten" as the PPC charges before firing, and hear the buildup of energy each time the Warhammer primes a PPC. The Atlas that appears is either a modified K or an Atlas C, either way as we know from past discussions, all other Atlases do not have 20 launch tubes, and both the K (and K2) and the C are depicted with LT/RT 10 tube racks for its LRM-20. Naturally this actually means this Atlas is highly out of place for the time setting but I think they used this Atlas specifically for the art quality.


In the final video, notice that medium lasers are red... and the Atlas has 6 of them in the CT; even if these are small lasers, again notice that 6 of them are in the CT. I actually question if perhaps these 6 barrels are part of simply 2 medium lasers. It is also worth noting that this Atlas also doesn't have hands of any sort.

[Koniving]

Also interesting to note that in addition to dropping PPC charging between the two versions, the reason for the explosion changed. In the Pre-Vis2, there's an ammunition cook off. Impending ammo explosion, eject. In the 3D trailer, it's a "core breach", go nuclear. Also: the 3D video specifies this is an Atlas C (...3050+...so someone at PGI that did that art did not know the naming conventions [C is not before D, as one is Davion and the other is Combine; why Combine and not Kurita? I honestly don't know; one would think the C would just be a 'K2'. I used to think it was Comstar].)

I also like your interpretation of the Donal, that the 'beam' might last a bit a longer (and thus inaccuracy might be due to whether or not they stay in the beam as long; for this I'd make it a bit less FLD within the BTPC mechanics to try and reflect that idea.)

[Karl Streiger]

Jep MWT did everything in the same in real time. But rounds were more like BT
Usually the big problem with round system is the moment when weapon range hit the movement.
As usual you can try to imagine the locust vs Jenner scene... when you bring it to S7 scale - wonder if a smaller time frame would not have been the better option

In this case the JR7 would hardly be able to full unload in the rear.

[Koniving]

Karl Streiger, on 08 June 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

Jep MWT did everything in the same in real time. But rounds were more like BT
Usually the big problem with round system is the moment when weapon range hit the movement.
As usual you can try to imagine the locust vs Jenner scene... when you bring it to S7 scale - wonder if a smaller time frame would not have been the better option

In this case the JR7 would hardly be able to full unload in the rear.

Indeed. Of course, this would pretty much never happen....


Or would it?

As far as I know, the Lights seem to operate on a smaller time scale for BT PC as they can often move two or three times more often, sometimes four times more often than assaults. Their range of movement during combat definitely isn't nearly as large as it is outside of combat (and outside of combat they only move once alongside the assaults.)

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 08 June 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

Indeed. Of course, this would pretty much never happen....


Or would it?

As far as I know, the Lights seem to operate on a smaller time scale for BT PC as they can often move two or three times more often, sometimes four times more often than assaults. Their range of movement during combat definitely isn't nearly as large as it is outside of combat (and outside of combat they only move once alongside the assaults.)

I've been enjoying the Beta for that game, so far I've found a few units to be a little OP...

CN9-A:

Great trooper mech, move it up and get it stuck into CQB, also they seem to take damage like a boss.


ON1-K / ON1-V:

Seriously, these things are kind of OP when placed on a ridge, they dump out so much damage that they almost knock anything over in one alpha... they make a great pair when partnered with a Hunchback 4G.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 09 June 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

I've been enjoying the Beta for that game, so far I've found a few units to be a little OP...

CN9-A:

Great trooper mech, move it up and get it stuck into CQB, also they seem to take damage like a boss.


ON1-K / ON1-V:

Seriously, these things are kind of OP when placed on a ridge, they dump out so much damage that they almost knock anything over in one alpha... they make a great pair when partnered with a Hunchback 4G.

CN9-A or CN9-AL?
The CN9-A should be a bit squishy, but the CN9-AL (Large Laser and Small) has the highest armor possible for a 50 tonner, which is higher than many heavy mechs and higher than the armor of a Victor. The A should be about average.

So you know, the CN9-AL and even a regular CN9-A work well like this in Megamek, too. A CN9-AL can stand toe to toe with a Hunchback IIC in front and a Stormcrow behind, shoot at both, melee to the front, and though it'd be knocked down time and time again it'd beat the crap out of the IIC and be healthy enough to have a 50/50 chance against the Stormcrow, provided the Stormcrow doesn't outrun it.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 10 June 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

CN9-A or CN9-AL?
The CN9-A should be a bit squishy, but the CN9-AL (Large Laser and Small) has the highest armor possible for a 50 tonner, which is higher than many heavy mechs and higher than the armor of a Victor. The A should be about average.

So you know, the CN9-AL and even a regular CN9-A work well like this in Megamek, too. A CN9-AL can stand toe to toe with a Hunchback IIC in front and a Stormcrow behind, shoot at both, melee to the front, and though it'd be knocked down time and time again it'd beat the crap out of the IIC and be healthy enough to have a 50/50 chance against the Stormcrow, provided the Stormcrow doesn't outrun it.

I've only used the AL twice, but felt she lacked punch compared to the A simply because the Laser combo on it doesn't hit as hard as the AC/10 does on the A model.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 10 June 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

I've only used the AL twice, but felt she lacked punch compared to the A simply because the Laser combo on it doesn't hit as hard as the AC/10 does on the A model.

Bring it to Melee. The AC/10 spreads its damage a lot, the laser combo not as much. But where the CN9-AL really shines is melee, as small lasers, MGs and flamers are used in melee combat as well.

Interestingly, heat isn't really a factor of mechs or a specific threshold, but a factor of tolerance by the pilot. So certain pilots can handle more heat and thus the mech can be 'hotter' without problem. It seems to set the threshold for both 'heat' damage and for shutting down higher This has some potential exploit factors, but definitely want to put pilots with higher heat tolerance into hotter mechs.

--------

Side note: How much HUD would you HUD in a Battletech Sim?
"HUDs" seem to be used to varying degrees; it was more important in older neuro-helm designs due to the fact that the pilot would not be able to turn his/her head and thus it would have a lot of information. The Neuro Helms in more common use, however, sometimes even fail to have a 'visor' for a HUD of any sort, relying instead on putting this information on the main screen (in solid cockpits), on a series of monitors (on visor cockpit and transplast/other transparent metal "glass" cockpits) with "HUD" visors being a somewhat 'optional' thing.

If the detailed information could be found within your cockpit for everything from weapon status to sensor irregularities, what would you want on the HUD itself? Should elements remain in view or only appear when relevant?

[Koniving]

So, BTPC has brought a few things to my attention, or I suppose made me more keenly aware of them.

Melee combat for example has a bit of an issue. Shoulder rams, kicks, etc. cause damage to the enemy, but fail to result in any damage to the user. This seems...unlikely. The use of light weapons during melee though is quite ingenious.

Sensors... simultaneously are pretty good and absolutely terrible. They can detect things in the distance without giving much information, or for some, quite detailed information. This seems to vary both with the mech and the skill associated with it ("Tactics") for the pilot. A medium-to-long range Visual gives instant identification of at least the chassis (or should; it gives instant identification of everything about the 'Mech). Trees and obstacles don't seem to hinder the sensors themselves, and large thickets of trees do not seem to hamper sight to an enemy on the otherside or within them. I also noticed that while trees provide a "cover" status, they do not soak any damage.

In comparison, Megamek through Tac/Strat Ops rules and double blind, establishes a sensor range that changes depending on where you are and what is going on. I don't mean actions (sadly) but weather, trees/rocks/cliffs/buildings. For example if the area is completely clear, the 'Mech runs long range sensors. If you're close to something like trees, the sensors cut down to that range (even with a big clearing on the opposite side).

There's advantages and disadvantages to this. For example in that long range, for some reason enemies that are closer than the sensor's set range, they won't appear at all (unless you can visually see them). Meaning if someone were hidden and powered up underneath the range you're set to, they could catch you by complete surprise. Someone could be 60 meters into heavy forest and be almost indetectable, even visually unless you're right up next to the forest. Even then, the trees soak up damage as one might expect when you start cutting through the forest with lasers and ACs. You can use an optional rule called inclusive scanning which includes all ranges within a set range (makes sneaking up on 'Mechs a little harder but it is still pretty easy if you know where they are.

In BTPC, a pilot with high "Tactics" skill is more likely to get better detection, better details, and detect threats that would otherwise be undetectable. In Megamek,the closest thing comes from TacOps (or is it MaxTech) and is called "Sensor Geek." A Sensor Geek is frequently cycling through ranges and checking his or her sensor screen often.

So... How could we use this?
In the form of a Sim, rather than using a "sensor geek" attribute, the player can simply check the sensors and toy with the associated options often. Then again, a bit of 'help' from a passive skill does help (though in this case, it won't be as useful if you aren't prone to checking the sensors often).

This is one of the things that I would personally choose not to include on the "HUD", but instead have on a monitor within view or easy access, as such you might not always be looking at it. Information Warfare isn't just about making something 'not work' so that you can hide things, sometimes it's about whether or not you're paying attention to it.

But how might other people handle it? Would you put thermal, night vision, etc. on your HUD, on the Mech's main view, or on a monitor (assuming there would be no limitations to how the Sim could handle it and issues like picture-in-picture)?

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 11 June 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

So... How could we use this?
In the form of a Sim, rather than using a "sensor geek" attribute, the player can simply check the sensors and toy with the associated options often. Then again, a bit of 'help' from a passive skill does help (though in this case, it won't be as useful if you aren't prone to checking the sensors often).

This is one of the things that I would personally choose not to include on the "HUD", but instead have on a monitor within view or easy access, as such you might not always be looking at it. Information Warfare isn't just about making something 'not work' so that you can hide things, sometimes it's about whether or not you're paying attention to it.

But how might other people handle it? Would you put thermal, night vision, etc. on your HUD, on the Mech's main view, or on a monitor (assuming there would be no limitations to how the Sim could handle it and issues like picture-in-picture)?

I did drive a Audi A7 once - (sadly not mine) It had a HUD as well as a thermal imagine with intelligence on a secondary monitor.
You might know it when you are little bit tired - and weather conditions are bad (night and rain) and you don't know the route you might do two things (i did)
- check the route on your navigation system to see weather there is a curve or not and if in which direction it will go.
During this trip i was hardly able to watch for the speed so i did drive by feeling alone - it was enough then but given that car driving is a simple task compared with "mech driving" you would need more informations at hand, but not so much that you can't handle the input.

When you have a clear split between primary, secondary and tertiary information its better to handle this bulk of informations. I know Metus would object, but most of us can't read two books at the same time

So my: layout:
Thermograph with configurable intelligence (looks it like a mech? do highlight; does it not look like a Mech fade into the background) - already zoomed to x4 or even x10 so that the thermograph only shows a small fraction of the terrain.

Low Light intensification would not be that helpful - although I might think that it gives better identity options were thermal imagine is better for detecting - so a mix of both in one view might be the standard for HUD.

So consider you have a "cloaked" Mech - its thermal and magnetic signature is spoofed by Guardian ECM (maybe can send own IR waves on the sender to cause interference)
In this case the target is not highlighted by the Thermograph - the pilot need to scan the surrounding and watch for something that look like a Mech - when he spots it he can mark it and it will displayed on the "main screen"

tertiary informations would be ammunition; internal systems - more accurate sensor logs (the sensor finger print of that KGC s arms doesn't look correct.... what is it?) - oh he is very hot - he can't shoot that often anymore.

On the HUD you should only have the valueable informations,

• terrain in the lower part- (can i move there or do i get stuck)
  
• crosshair - with a marker for the current TIC - and the quality of the "lock"
  
• a HTAL diagramm - for my Mech- but only when hits become serious
  
• a HTAL diagramm for the target but the same only highlighting "weakspots"
  
• Speed and Heat informations about my Mech
  

[Koniving]

Will definitely post more on the HUD subject when I have the chance (probably tomorrow).

But for the first time in a long while, I started looking at Star Citizen videos, and especially the "Galactic Tour" and I'm reminded of MechCommander 2's "television snippets." Glimpses from news broadcasts and TV shows. I have also been playing a bit of Grand Theft Auto V and yesterday I sat down and just "watched TV".

There have been other games which also have, at the very least, billboards containing "advertisement" for fake products within their respective universes. Deus Ex (the SquareEnix ones) claim to have created over a hundred fake 'brands' and put advertisements for them about. Now, I definitely don't want to get to the ridiculous level of fake ads that plagued the Ghost in the Shell Live Action movie; to be honest with the holographic ads flying over the streets I could foresee lots of car crashes from tourists and the Live Action movie does not mention or even hint at "traffic control" found in the animated shows, as such we're not given any hint or suggestion that driving is done automatically rather than by the driver. (In GitS's latest prequel series, even motorcycles are under traffic control, though everything can be switched to manual in emergencies.) (The Traffic Control is very similar to that in Demolition man, except the individual cars control themselves rather than a massive hub server.)

Got a bit off topic. Anyway, these reminded me of a video that TMG made which was a German-speaking advertisement for the Awesome by the company that produces Awesomes (got a baby in my lap so it is hard to look things up right this second). I figure that an F2P sim, over time and with minimal map-making needs (by using procedural map generation with a few 'set' map designs for specific locations), would have in place of regular advertisements, a budget for making in-universe commercials and military briefing videos for their machines as a way of both enticing new players. This use of the 'real' advertising budget to make 'in universe' advertisements and 'hints' to in universe TV shows (such as Star Citizen's Galactic Tour) can also double as a means of introducing the various companies and factions in the game/sim and what they are all about.

For example, a commercial about Corean Enterprises might reveal their design philosophy about products designed to work together (Trebuchet and its Centurion escort for example). Another commercial might be an old attempt by General Motors to repair the reputation of the Blackjack that had been tarnished by the bad press at its reception, showcasing its effectiveness in anti-insurgency warfare against infantry, small vehicles, and some light 'Mechs (as a way of teaching players how to use the Blackjack and its role).

An attempt to find an example for the Donal PPC lead to this discovery. So, using this, lets say there's a military briefing about PPCs, and it could include that Donal PPCs, known for some exceptional firepower for a PPC (as BTPC is teaching us by giving them a slightly higher damage stat), can be visually identified by its "distinctively long barrel and blocky power chamber."

Distinct meaning that a barrel as long as a Donal is unique to it or being unique in its long shape. (Such as the hexagon-shape used by the barrels of Gauss Rifles in MWO).

---------
Side note I'm not sure if it was here or elsewhere, but someone mentioned the Daboku ending up in the Lyran alliance. I disputed it based on the Cartoon series which had put Maulers in everyones' hands despite being Kurita only, and that the explanation was that the main Mauler was captured, as were several more and that they were not Dabokus. Evidently I recently read (and can't remember where now), that in fact the Lyrans had captured/stolen and even bought many Dabokus around the time of the Mauler, much to the joy of the DCMS whom knew exactly where to shoot to trigger the cockpit ejections. The Lyrans (Steiners) quickly caught on to what was going on and soon abandoned the units entirely, where they would then end up in the hands of periphery nations on the cheap, for whatever amounts were left.

There are a lot of opportunities that could be done with some intelligent double-use of an advertising budget.

I said I would get back into HUDs tomorrow, but...

Quote

On the HUD you should only have the valuable information,

• terrain in the lower part- (can i move there or do i get stuck)
  
• crosshair - with a marker for the current TIC - and the quality of the "lock"
  
• a HTAL diagramm - for my Mech- but only when hits become serious
  
• a HTAL diagramm for the target but the same only highlighting "weakspots"
  
• Speed and Heat informations about my Mech

While I would not spend the graphical budget on an always on terrain camera, this scene from Patrol Labor 2 depicts a 'ground camera' for your feet.

With limited picture in picture resources, I might set this as an option to toggle much like the rear camera; it may even take over the primary view (instead of rendering the cockpit, the stuff ahead, etc., it'd cut to just rendering what is below) in much the same way a rear view camera might.
However, without going so far as a camera view, an option for the HUD might depict the phrase "Obstacle", the name or type of obstacle, and the distance.

For example:
Obstacle: Tank, 13 meters.
Meaning that there is a tank 13 meters in front of you, which could trip you if you should collide.
If we go a step further this may even have a wireframe overlay for the tank and where it is below-and-out-of-your-visual-range of the 'Mech's viewport. So if you were in an Atlas, and this tank is in front of you well below where you can see from the Atlas's eye, the HUD might super-impose a very simple Battlezone style wireframe tank where the obstacle is so that if you look down with your head (either via mouse, joystick or VR headset) you can see exactly what "13 meters" really means.

I can agree with the rest of the HUD's critical information entirely.
I would perhaps add the following:

• Basic compass with the 8 major directions (North, South, East and West and their combinations) as well as numerical headings (0 through 359 degrees), as well as vertical incline (0 being 'level' with positive and negative numbers; these would assist with aiming as you come to realize that if the enemy is at X range you might need to give it +10 elevation to make sure your ACs hit at that range; even more useful for 'Mech Mortars I imagine).

That's all I can think of.

Far as HTAL, I really liked the version depicted in the MW5/MWO trailer where a diagram of the 'Mech comes up and indicates status. Also when it comes up to show noteworthy damage being received.

Far as heat...
If we were to design a HUD with my three level heat system (weapon heat, heatsinks, Mech Threshold)... where might we place the indicators?

If weapons are not simply on display all the time akin to MWO, I think perhaps I would put the indicators alongside the crosshair, similar to MWO's crosshair cooldown bars.

Though the heat bars would only be representing the weapons selected rather than tfiring groups, as such the bars would increase/reduce and repurpose for each weapon set chosen.

This leaves Heatsink and 'Mech heat. I figure I would put these alongside the Speed indicator.

Edited by Koniving, 12 June 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Regarding the final goal?
Is it for digital or analog?

The original TT rules are not complex enough for a digital setting but to complex for a analog setting.

For example the original values were quite simple - at each range the same damage and almost the same range bracket sizes. For a digital presentation you can go full SnubNoose PPC with alternating ranges and damage values - you could even add some VSPL stuff in the mix with alternating to hit numbers. Or dynamic damage that is based on the missile hit table like the HAG


However when you want to keep track of all this stuff you would need to make it more simple.
And the most simple way is to get rid of the range brackets and full damage - and just keep point blank, short, medium, long, extreme range - with a damage value for those ranges.
A SRM6 might deal zero damage at extreme range but be most deadly at medium range (because the missile need some time for acceleration stuff)

So this would reduce the + 0/2/4/6 from the to hit roll - but there is still a difference between needing a +8 for 8 damage or a
+4 for 4 damage. On the average its the same (more or less)

You can also decrease the complexity of the movement stuff - when a Mech did ran he is simple evading; if he doesn't fire a weapon he is actively dodging. The values representation can be linked to the Mech - a evading Atlas is simpler to hit but a evading Spider.
But the same goes for the offensive roll - the targeting computer of a evading Atlas would hardly have a issue to ignore the movement, were the same on a Spider would cause some stress.

You could keep track of all those values on your record sheet - maybe even reduce the armor / structure system to a single value. (although i really would like to have the renegade system with different damage profiles)

However when you are able to reduce all those - tracking of movement, calculating, armor and hit zones, dice-rolling and more you have more time for the micromanagement that is so much fun.

So for example - when I produce more heat is this a issue for the heatsinks - say I produce 8 heat for 16 heat sinks is not a issue - 16 heat for 16 heatsinks however might cause 17 heat instead - so my Mech starts to overheat - although i have the heatsinks on the paper.
Can a AC overheat? Why not - keep tracking you have the spare time

What about DHS - their volatile Coolant might not stay for ever - when ever you produce more heat then you have heatsink numbers you loose some efficency (same example of above - 16 or 17 for the system might be no issue for 10 DHS - saving you 6tons. But what if those 10 DHS doesn't cool 20 heat in the next round but only 19 because - and after the next salvo only 18? And this goes on until those 10 DHS are only 10 very expensive huge SHS.


Sorry for the gibberish- but your work is the reason why I reactivated my BT RC progam

Edited by Karl Streiger, 16 June 2017 - 05:26 AM.

[Koniving]

The hypothetical goal would be a Mechwarrior-like "Battletech" simulation (as opposed to a game). I did in fact read every bit of that, and most of it I already see taken care of pretty well on Megamek as a digital tabletop, even though it is effectively a digital version of the analog tabletop. Even the regular BT TT rules, such as if the enemy is moving your accuracy for hitting them is reduced (the to hit roll is higher and thus intended to be harder to achieve). A sprinting target is really hard to hit, especially if you are already running (not sprinting just running) after it.

I have considered and been working towards being able to achieve a sort of "demonstration" of weapon variant mechanics in Megamek as the digital medium of the tabletop game would easily keep track of all the stat checking. Sadly though I have asked if they were developing or had an easy way to create new weapon variants, it seems it might be something they will do eventually but they do not have a simple "weapon maker". If there was something I could pull up which would let me enter a name, basic rules and how damage is dispersed I could easily (...ok, painstakingly) replace every weapon in the inventory of every mech and go "Tada!"

However, as the abbreviation of the name of this thread implies, it is a hypothetical (What if?) Battletech to Real Time conversion, as such the idea is to take the tabletop plus the lore and then create an experience that plays out in real time. For now this is mainly to create videos of 3D animations (but it seems I won't make progress on that until I find a decently paying job that doesn't have me working 12 hours a day for 4-6 days a week, because between this and watching a toddler, there isn't a lot of time for 3D art).

| As far as double heatsinks and heatsinks in general, I do see what you're doing there. In effect, the heatsinks you are describing are temporarily (or permanently) degrading in performance due to the coolant getting so hot. In essence, that is a big part of the three stage heat/cooling system I conceived. Specifically, it is of the Deteriorating-Rate Cooling System. As your heatsinks get bogged down with a hefty workload similar to a truck driving through thick mud, they will slow down so to speak, causing the heat that you build up to matter more and more and more as things get worse and worse.

We will get into that in a minute.

I do see what you mean about the extra heat when you push your heatsinks, it is an interesting approach and similar to how Battletech approaches things of similar nature to include machine guns. MGs do not produce heat normally, but under the TacOps Burst Fire MG rule several uses of the MG in sequence will generate heat. What this and common sense tells us is that machine guns do heat up, but typically 'normal' use of them would not generate enough heat to even register in tabletop.

BT already treats this situation though and has its own way of handling it. There is a rule that covers this in Megamek which comes from TacOps called "Heatsink Taxing." You are probably already aware of it. (Edit: This was evidently our nickname for it. The actual rule is called Heatsink Coolant Failure).

Heatsink taxing has a set threshold or limit for triggering. The limit is "5" heat above your heatsink cooling power (regardless of SHS or DHS). This is pretty basic but it does work very well for tabletop. In real time however, there's a problem as simply getting X+5 heat and suddenly losing a heatsink seems really arbitrary or forced. "What's that, you generated 15 heat with 10 heatsinks?! POW! You get punished!" What is so magical about it being 5 heat over the heatsink cooling power?

In tabletop it's technically a dice roll that you have to make. However for real time, sudden random chance can sometimes put people off in real time games. Much like playing a Beat 'Em Up or fighting game and seeing the word "Miss" instead of damage when you clearly hit the enemy repeatedly.


On page 1 I responded to Exilyth, I expressed when describing a three threshold heat system (Weapon heat threshold, Heatsink threshold, Mech/Engine threshold), that I am making every attempt possible to avoid "randomness" in favor of "Tenable Risk." For this to be perfectly clear, I included definitions.
Tenable is defined as: 1) able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection. 2) (of an office, position, scholarship, etc.) able to be held or used.
Risk is defined as: a situation involving exposure to danger.
As such, the intended meaning is that you are able to see and (through skill) maintain a safe position against being exposed to the dangers of penalties. In other words, I want the player to know that there is a fine line that they are crossing. More importantly, I want them to know that they can tease it, flirt with it and if they aren't too careful, that fine line is gonna bite them hard.

(Will be back to continue this post as soon as I can, another 12 hour shift is calling me..)
To Be Continued....tomorrow.

Edited by Koniving, 17 June 2017 - 08:46 PM.

[Koniving]

I'm back. Anyway. I got into Tenable Risk because unlike the Heatsink Taxing or Heatsink Coolant Failure rule, I don't want to punish the player just because they got to 5 heat past their heatsink's cooling value. And your idea of giving extra heat because they are too hot, while punishing, sort of compounds the problem they already have. I'm afraid it might give a "ghost heat"-like impression to players.

Similar to the Heatsink taxing rule, I would have them lose cooling power . This could be temporary or permanent, depending on the severity. A temporary punishment would be the loss of coolant, reducing the effectiveness of the heatsinks until it is replaced. Sometimes you would have the means to do this on the field, but most of the time you won't. A permanent punishment would be the melting or damaging of the heatsink, which would last until it got repaired or replaced.

Instead of 16 heat for 16 heatsinks causing 17 heat (bonus heat) or hitting 16+5 heat for 16 heatsinks causing one to lose coolant, my approach is something a bit different. In either my constant rate or my deteriorating rate cooling system, the heatsinks have a threshold equal to their cooling power. So 16 single heatsinks would have 16 threshold. If there is 1 heat, the heatsinks then have 15 threshold left until the heat is gone. So what happens if you hit 22 heat within the same ten seconds? Well you're pushing your heatsinks and they are getting bogged down.

The constant rate (think any Mechwarrior game or Battletech) version wouldn't lose anything but with the heatsink threshold being full for a length of time, the health of the heatsinks closest to the most thermally offensive weapons or equipment (the hottest guns or gear) will take damage.

The deteriorating rate version works a bit different, rather than a constant 1.6 per second cooling for 16 SHS, the heatsinks split heat between Mech/Engine threshold and Heatsink threshold. Say I fire a PPC similar to MWO. In other words no charge up no variant, etc. 5 heat would go to my Mech/Engine threshold, bringing that to 16.67% heat. The other 5 would instantly go to my 16 heatsink threshold, cutting their ability to pull heat from my Mech/Engine threshold by 31.25%, so my cooldown rate would drop from 1.6 per second to 1.1 per second (and steadily drop to 0 as it pulls heat from the 'Mech/Engine threshold until that heat is dissipated which consumes the rest of any 10 second period.).

Either way if you keep the heatsink threshold full for too long, heatsinks will take damage and depending on the severity, the punishment may be temporary or permanent (until the battle is over). And in either version any new heat will go directly to the Mech Threshold so long as the heatsinks are drowning in heat.

To experience something like this, make an industrial or battlemech in Megamek. Give it a fuel cell or ICE engine (to get rid of the 10 heatsink rule). Now give yourself a single heatsink and some Vehicle Flamers with vehicle flamer ammo. 3 heat per use of the "flame" in a turn. After melting the heatsink, the 'Mech becomes a time bomb as it cannot cool anymore. If there is ammo not dumped, it may explode. The 'Mech becomes stiff, inaccurate, the pilot begins taking damage and soon dies from the heat. Experiencing this was really thrilling during combat as it made every choice I made matter toward my goal defeating the opponent.

--------------

I tried using a Panther 9R in Megamek with almost literally every single compatible official rule that exists. My opponent was an 80 ton Goliath. My PPC's minimum damage dealt 5 damage. The highest I achieve from a single PPC blast was 17 damage. I also mopped the floor with the Goliath as my Panther.

I was not able to figure out how to dedicate heatsinks to see exactly how much benefit there is, but I do know it is supposed to cut down the total heat generated.