52 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

El Bandito, on 21 April 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

Jagers are squishy and reliant on quirks--quirks that can be easily taken away to compensate for fixed convergence mechanic.

Roughneck's without their quirks are just as squishy as Jagers because 65 ton Mechs all the the same armor and structure values without quirks.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I can't believe this.

Here is a thread about how the Roughneck is P2W because it has high hardpoints.

When I pointed out that other IS Mechs have high hardpoints, I was countered by the arguments that 1.) JagerMechs are dependent on quirks, and 2.) Clan Mechs are better than JagerMechs


Firstly, this thread is not about how Clan Mechs are better than JagerMechs. Secondly, you absolutely CANNOT compare the effectiveness of a fully-quirked roughneck against the effectiveness of a non-quirked JagerMech. That is stupid. Outright dumb.

You think JagerMechs are dependent on quirks? Where do you think all the extra Roughneck HP came from? It has health quirks, you twit.

Stick a JagerMech with no quirks against a Roughneck with no quirks. Then come back and tell me how things went.

Yes, all Mechs can have their quirks taken away. You have to consider that when comparing 2 Mechs that BOTH lean on quirks for their signature status (being tanky, or offensive).

Edit - let's make things Fair. Let's compare a JagerMech with all its quirks against a Rough neck with its quirks that were taken away. Who wins? Like it was said before, a mech can have its quirks taken away any time. So how would you consider the roughneck to be without any quirks compared to all the other Mechs with quirks? Because that seems to be a very reasonable comparison according to what I heard from the people in this thread.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 21 April 2017 - 06:42 AM.

[qS Sachiel]

brroleg, on 21 April 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

All new "mechpacks" comes with lots of high mounted hardpoints. Guess its cause people want to pay money to win, so they dont buy mechs with low hardpoints. And in result game goes to the direction where all mechs are the same high mounted hardpoint boats and only has difference in color and cosmetic shape.
I dont see how this could be undone, except maybe if PGI will find another way to earn money except selling "mechpacks".

The hardpoint locations rarely change significantly between hero and non-hero mechs... so it's not pay to win if the mechs eventually come online for CBills...

As another poster made the observation, it's more a power-creep, ie: obseletion of older mechs (see firestarter, victor)...

[Natred]

I enjoy even mounted mounts of the torsos and arms

[Bud Crue]

Prosperity Park, on 21 April 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

This is a Roughneck P2W thread, it is not about Clan Mechs.

It is?

Damn, I thought it was about the propagation of High hardpoint mechs in general. I missed the roughneck aspect.

[Roadbuster]

El Bandito, on 21 April 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

No, at long range the damage will still be spread out. Just like when you try to lead a target with projectiles using weapons on different mounts in current MWO. It most certainly will not hit the same spot.

Only if you totally eliminate convergence.
Well, it would be worth to try this on PTS at least.

[Mystere]

invernomuto, on 21 April 2017 - 03:07 AM, said:

That is a very interesting idea. Automatic convergence for arms mounts and fixed (or very limited) convergence for torso mounts. That would compensate for arms mounts being lower...

It should have been this way since day 1. But, the "What about muh skillz?" crowd would burn the place down.

Oh! Did I just say burn the place down? Hmm ...

[Tordin]

There should be an advantage to lower mounts, and low slung arms. Some kind of in-universe, canon explanation that the arms have integrated a slight aim assist against fast units, if the targeting reticle registers the enemy mech running 100km/h then you will get a tiny bit help with aiming. For low mounted torso hardpoints? Not sure... more hp?

Really, I have NO problem with low slung arms. Why? Well, sure it might be higher up and steadier to aim with high torso mounts. But when you want to aim at a steep angel or actually try to aim against moving targets, well arm weapons are more preferrable, low slung or not, since torso mounts depends on good twist rate and twist speed.

Same for the situations where you hug a wall and can ONLY aim at the doofers up high with your arms. The odd one are arm mounts like the Jagers which can only aim up or down, limited use against fast mechs, but still a bit easier to aim with than torso mounts. Against cliff racers that is...

[Jonny Taco]

Bonus crit rate for arm mounted weapons using lower and upper actuators?

[Bud Crue]

Jonny Taco, on 21 April 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

Bonus crit rate for arm mounted weapons using lower and upper actuators?

.

I like the idea/concept.

How about weapons in hardpoints below chest level get those improved chances as well and those with hard points below waist level get still more bonuses (however slight). Doesn't have to be crit chance either; just anything to give mechs with low hard points an offset...or just a reason to be played. As it is is, as much as I love mechs like a Cataphract, if I have 5 more tons available why on earth would I even consider that mech over a Night Gyr?

[invernomuto]

Bud Crue, on 21 April 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

.

I like the idea/concept.

How about weapons in hardpoints below chest level get those improved chances as well and those with hard points below waist level get still more bonuses (however slight). Doesn't have to be crit chance either; just anything to give mechs with low hard points an offset...or just a reason to be played. As it is is, as much as I love mechs like a Cataphract, if I have 5 more tons available why on earth would I even consider that mech over a Night Gyr?

+1

[Jonny Taco]

Bud Crue, on 21 April 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

.

I like the idea/concept.

How about weapons in hardpoints below chest level get those improved chances as well and those with hard points below waist level get still more bonuses (however slight). Doesn't have to be crit chance either; just anything to give mechs with low hard points an offset...or just a reason to be played. As it is is, as much as I love mechs like a Cataphract, if I have 5 more tons available why on earth would I even consider that mech over a Night Gyr?

"Quirks" tied to specific hardpoints would be really cool so long as you could actively choose putting weapons in certain spots rather than just filling it up from top to bottom. Combined with giving some kind of bonus to all arms with lower actuators (most low slung arms) it would add some interesting fitting options.

I think we may be onto something here.

Edited by Jonny Taco, 21 April 2017 - 07:36 AM.

[Coolant]

It is hard to do well with low points...not impossible but hard. You have to expose yourself almost completely to get off alphas. I love the Victor, and I have to admit that PGI has done a great job making it relevant again with all the quirks. But, it still is a sitting duck if you expect to fire all your weapons because of the low hardpoints.

I totally get why PGI is having hard points as a selling point. Sales would be lower on mechs that didnt have high points and so from a business stand point I get it. But, are all mechs in the future going to have high mounted hard points?

[Bud Crue]

Jonny Taco, on 21 April 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

"Quirks" tied to specific hardpoints would be really cool so long as you could actively choose putting weapons in certain spots rather than just filling it up from top to bottom. Combined with giving some kind of bonus to all arms with lower actuators (most low slung arms) would add some interesting fitting options.

I think we may be onto something here.

Been discussed (at least in the forums) for years, but I can't see hardpoint specific quirks ever becoming a reality. Alas. Still, I like the idea of a mech like the Warhammer getting its PPC quirks ONLY in the arms (as an example).

[Bud Crue]

Coolant, on 21 April 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Sales would be lower on mechs that didnt have high points and so from a business stand point I get it. But, are all mechs in the future going to have high mounted hard points?

Yes. At least if they want to sell more packs.

It used to be that nostalgia alone could drive sales, but I think that much of that nostalgia has been used up and will be even less important from here on out (particularly after the pure nostalgia junkies leave this game all together for HBS Battletech). So what does that leave...e-sports? Well in that case then yes competitive folks are going to buy the mechs that are intrinsically the best and that means those with high and/or many hard points. Mechs having such features will be those that sell the best in the absence of quirks.

[G4LV4TR0N]

They need to take this seriously when developing new maps. Making them not favor trenched mechs with high mounts, instead forcing more brawly/side poke situations.

[Alan Davion]

Bud Crue, on 21 April 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

Yes. At least if they want to sell more packs.

It used to be that nostalgia alone could drive sales, but I think that much of that nostalgia has been used up and will be even less important from here on out (particularly after the pure nostalgia junkies leave this game all together for HBS Battletech). So what does that leave...e-sports? Well in that case then yes competitive folks are going to buy the mechs that are intrinsically the best and that means those with high and/or many hard points. Mechs having such features will be those that sell the best in the absence of quirks.

I don't think it's so much that nostalgia has been used up, take a look at Gas Guzzler's mech poll and a few mechs like the Dervish and Crusader are fairly high in the polls. And those are being driven by nostalgia first I'd be willing to bet.

Nostalgia is still prevalent, but it's simply been overshadowed by the need to be competitive and effective in combat. Mechs need high hard points. Mechs need ridiculous levels of armor.

The competitive crowd certainly needs to be taken down a peg or two. If not for nostalgia this game wouldn't exist for them to ruin with their need to polish their e-peen with.

Edited by Alan Davion, 21 April 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Alan Davion, on 21 April 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

I don't think it's so much that nostalgia has been used up, take a look at Gas Guzzler's mech poll and a few mechs like the Dervish and Crusader are fairly high in the polls. And those are being driven by nostalgia first I'd be willing to bet.

Nostalgia is still prevalent, but it's simply been overshadowed by the need to be competitive and effective in combat. Mechs need high hard points. Mechs need ridiculous levels of armor.

The competitive crowd certainly needs to be taken down a peg or two. If not for nostalgia this game wouldn't exist for them to ruin with their need to polish their e-peen with.

I'm fine with the competitive folks and for everyone to play to the best of their ability within the game that we are given. The question asked however, was if high hard point mechs will sell better than others and such mechs are all we will be seeing in the future. While I agree that nostalgia is still around and still a factor, I just think that nostalgia alone is no longer a prime driver and that if they want to sell the most mechs it has to be one that meets the criteria of the competitive crowd...not just feed nostalgia.

Given what's become of the population, what's about to become of it (see my comment re guarding HBS) and PGI's own stated goals for what they want this game to be (an e-sport) PGI is going to cater to the needs/desire of their intended audience, specifically: those that want to play to the meta and play their best at it i.e. Competitive participants in this supposed e-sport.

Casuals like me, pokemech folks, lore nerds, nostalgia junkies, etc. are still around and some are still buying, but the audience that PGI wants to focus on -by their own assertions- are the comp folks, and those folks are not going to waste $ on a nostalgic crap mechs, but they will spend money if that nostalgic mech also gives them an edge. That's where they will sell the most mechs...at least according to their own stated criteria for what they want this game to be.

[Ultimax]

The problem isn't high mounts.

The problem is that low mounts are a clear failure of design, and do not make any sense in this game.

Low mounts (in torso) are simply a bad hold over from old artwork - and the apparent technical limitation of not being able to raise the arms of our mechs.

Ability to shoot over objects is better than not being able to.
Ability to shoot what you can see is better than not.
Being able to utilize cover effectively is better than not.


These are pretty simple concepts, I think that PGI should look to remedying the issues with low mounts & arms that have elbows pinned at the hips then they should worry about introducting mechs with high mounts.

I'm not saying every mech needs to have Roughmech level mounts all of the time, but if you could take a mech like the Black Knight, move it's energy mounts to the upper region of it's torsos - it is still the Black Knight but it now is able to function better.


Giving bonuses to mechs with lower mounts worked, but then they went and removed a lot of those buffs like structure quirks (Black Knight) that the mechs basically relied on as they have to expose so much of themselves to shoot.


The only problem with the Roughneck is that PGI seemed to heap a lot of structure & armor with high mounts - my guess is they did this to give IS a really strong option to fill out most of a drop deck for Faction Play (and because the mech is only available for real money purchase right now).

I don't have a comment on the current strength of the Roughneck, as I don't own it and haven't played much since the patch.

Edited by Ultimax, 21 April 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Ultimax, on 21 April 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

The only problem with the Roughneck is that PGI seemed to heap a lot of structure & armor with high mounts - my guess is they did this to give IS a really strong option to fill out most of a drop deck for Faction Play (and because the mech is only available for real money purchase right now).

They did that because it has no accel/decel/turn/twist quirks, making it actually pretty sluggish on the poke compared to existing options. And that's just the energy variants, the others have the same issue on top of the low-mounts problem with so much firepower in the arms.

Also, those shoulder mounts are extremely easy to isolate and hit. Poof, XL.