19 replies to this topic

[Racerxintegra2k]

Skill Tree, Engine Desync, and Balance Adjustments scheduled on the roadmap for May 16th. That's 3 weeks away. I'm against Engine Desync and very skeptical on the Skill Tree implementation to compensate past grind as well as maintain balance (Removing IS quirks).

With that being said, pushing the date past May 16th is going to piss alot of people off. I almost feel like we are 3 weeks away from a no win situation.

[Khobai]

engine decoupling seems pretty necessary to me. A heavy mech should never be more agile than a medium and thats the situation we have now. mediums are supposed to be the most versatile weight class, not heavies, so taking agility away from heavies is a good start towards restoring the versatility of mediums.

as for the skill tree, its always been terrible. its basically just a more complex progression tree where the player doesnt make any real meaningful choices. it will just devolve into everyone using the same exact cookie cutter skill build because its the most efficient way to min-max the skilltree.

and yeah people are going to get screwed on compensation. Because PGI basically came out and said they dont want to fully compensate people for their past efforts.

[Bud Crue]

Why opposed to engine decoupling? Only a few mechs are truly nerfed by it many are out right buffed, many more will have no appreciable change unless your current build is played with a very atypical engine size.

Skills tree...meh. I get why folks are opposed...the messy UI, the utter monotony of the 91 nodes on the wall song, the gated "good" nodes behind "useless" nodes, the horror for a theoretical new player trying to iteratively skill out a mech a bit at a time, etc. But really I don't see any of that as such a big deal (mainly because I don't think there are more than a handful of new players coming into this game in a given month and those that do come in are here for mechs or just to see what it is and will leave or stay based on other factors than the skills tree).

As to "balance adjustments". Yes I sure hope they come to their senses on this issue, as I fear...and I am not being hyperbolic here...that they could be killing the game with this nonsense. Making over half the mechs in this game objectively worse is not going to improve diversity or player choice; and it might just be the straw to break some camels backs (whales...sorry but I loath to mix metaphors) and lose confidence in PGI and the future of this game.

[Ultimax]

Bud Crue, on 25 April 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Why opposed to engine decoupling?

A larger engine weighs more and should grant more benefits, and a few extra KPH of linear speed doesn't do that when you move up 25 or even 50 ratings in some cases in the Heavy & Assault class.

The Night Gyr has all but supplanted the TBR in competitive play, even in the fast matches full of lights & mediums - and while some will bring up a number of factors, the reality is that the firepower it brings has proven largely superior to the mobility of the TBR - and this is before the TBR gets its mobility nerfed which is all but guaranteed in the Nerf pass that is being disguised as Engine decoupling. (neither one of them has an ideal engine IMO, although I'd be hard pressed to reduce my Night Gyr's firepower in favor of moving up to a 325 or 350 - something I would likely only do on an energy boat)


https://mrbcleague.c...id=3904&forum=2

Edited by Ultimax, 25 April 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Ultimax, on 25 April 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

A larger engine weighs more and should grant more benefits, and a few extra KPH of linear speed doesn't do that when you move up 25 or even 50 ratings in some cases in the Heavy & Assault class.

The Night Gyr has all but supplanted the TBR in competitive play, even in the fast matches full of lights & mediums - and while some will bring up a number of factors, the reality is that the firepower it brings has proven largely superior to the mobility of the TBR - and this is before the TBR gets its mobility nerfed which is all but guaranteed in the Nerf pass that is being disguised as Engine decoupling. (neither one of them has an ideal engine IMO, although I'd be hard pressed to reduce my Night Gyr's firepower in favor of moving up to a 325 or 350 - something I would likely only do on an energy boat)

https://mrbcleague.c...id=3904&forum=2

Good reason.
Most of my crap IS mechs are getting a benefit so seeing the other side is useful. Here's hoping PGI pays attention.
It is kind sad how the NG has totally supplanted the Timber. Alas, I think PGI's delayed realization of how their game is played will not result in any adjustment or benefit to it at least with the skills tree. Maybe in 3-6 months but not yet.

[Cy Mitchell]

Russ has said there is supposed to be another PTS for the Skill Tree. I thought he said in late April or maybe I just assumed that so that there would be time to make minor changes based on feedback and still make the May 16th patch. This is the last week of April so I am expecting a PTS this week sometime.

The Skill Tree, including engine decoupling, really needs to get in and get settled prior to the new Civil War Tech hitting in June IMO.

As far as the engine decoupling goes, the first iteration was bad. But I tested the last version on PTS quite a bit on all the chassis I own. The only one that felt significantly different in a bad way was the Stormcrow which felt sluggish in back to back test against the LIVE server. I think the changes from engine decoupling will be easy to adapt to.

[Khobai]

Quote

A larger engine weighs more and should grant more benefits, and a few extra KPH of linear speed doesn't do that when you move up 25 or even 50 ratings in some cases in the Heavy & Assault class.

it does grant you a benefit: faster speed. and more internal heatsink slots. but a larger engine should not give you better agility.

otherwise you end up with crap like timberwolves with 375 engines having the same agility as hunchbacks with 250 engines. a timberwolf should never be as agile as a medium like the hunchback. Because it defeats the purpose of playing mediums when heavies are just as fast and agile, but also carry way more weapons and armor.

mediums are supposed to be the most versatile weight class, not heavies. Engine decoupling is the first step of hopefully many more to come that are designed to make mediums the most versatile weight class instead of heavies. mediums having their rightful place in the game restored is long overdue.

Edited by Khobai, 25 April 2017 - 10:11 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Did the decoupling effect acceleration and deceleration? Because an engine effecting how fast you accelerate seems like common sense.

[Khobai]

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Did the decoupling effect acceleration and deceleration? Because an engine effecting how fast you accelerate seems like common sense.

no.

if I recall acceleration/deceleration is determined by the tonnage of the mech not the engine size.

which is exactly how it should be. lights and mediums should accelerate/decelerate faster than heavies and assaults because lights and mediums need to be able to pop in and out of line of sight faster to avoid damage since they dont have the armor of heavies or assaults.

Edited by Khobai, 25 April 2017 - 10:08 AM.

[MechaBattler]

So a medium with 250 will accelerate at the same rate as a medium with 350?

[Cy Mitchell]

MechaBattler, on 25 April 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

Did the decoupling effect acceleration and deceleration? Because an engine effecting how fast you accelerate seems like common sense.

Yes, Accel and Decel was tied to engine size. The decoupling changes that to being tied more to weight. At first, they had the decel all screwed up and stopping a Mech was like trying to stop an oil tanker at sea. But they fixed the decel and then it was not much different than it is now once you added in the mobility quirks available on the new Skill Tree. I did a lot of testing in PTS by running a Mech in PTS then the same Mech on LIVE then back to PTS for a control test. I posted my results on the PTS feedback forum. The changes were not significant in my experience. It is not going to break the game as some would have you believe. I also tested completely unskilled Mechs on both servers to see how the changes felt and again the changes did not that big of an impact.

Some Mechs will benefit from the decoupling and others, like the Stormcrow, will not. There will still be mobility quirks on some Mechs also in addition to skill tree nodes for torso twisting, accel, decel, turning etc.

[Khobai]

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So a medium with 250 will accelerate at the same rate as a medium with 350?

if they both weigh the same tonnage and neither has quirks then theyll accelerate the same

but the one with the 350 engine will be much faster

[Jables McBarty]

Bud Crue, on 25 April 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

and it might just be the straw to break some camels backs (whales...sorry but I loath to mix metaphors) and lose confidence in PGI and the future of this game.

How about... "the krill that blocked the whale's windpipe?"

Edited by Jables McBarty, 25 April 2017 - 11:15 AM.

[Ultimax]

MechaBattler, on 25 April 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

So a medium with 250 will accelerate at the same rate as a medium with 350?

Yes, another reason why I dislike it.

Khobai, on 25 April 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

but the one with the 350 engine will be much faster

The one with the 250 will have significantly more tonnage for weapons.

If a mech spends an extra 12+ tons on engine, it should move, accelerate and twist faster than one that doesn't.

[MechaBattler]

I agree with twisting and turning being separate of the engine. And even deceleration. But acceleration should be effected by your engine size relative to your weight.

[Cy Mitchell]

And the new PTS for the Skill Tree is up!

https://mwomercs.com...test-session-2/

[ScrapIron Prime]

Rampage, on 25 April 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

And the new PTS for the Skill Tree is up!

https://mwomercs.com...test-session-2/

Looking over it, active and inactive skills are good. Lets you customize a mech without more grind just to switch weapons.

Gonna have to play it to see if i like the decouple and the mobility changes. Some mechs get nerfed hard, and i dont think the skill tree is going to make up for that.... Just like before.

Example... Nerfing the Dragon and Vindicator just as hard as everyone else isn't going to magically make more of these mechs appear in the game. People avoid them because they can't perform. And they still won't.

[R Valentine]

Engine de-sync is going to be hit or miss. While some lights need help, I fear the best among them, the Artic Cheetah and the Locust, are only going to get faster and even more maneuverable while most mechs are going down. The Jenner suffers from re-scale syndrome, and that problem is only going to be fixed by re-scaling it again to something in between what it was and what it is now. I'd rather the Jenner and Locust found a happy medium rather than one being the god of lights and the other being the peon. I also hope IS heavies and assaults don't get the brunt of the blow, which they very well may. Last time I was on the PTS for the engine de-sync the MADIIC only felt even more agile and quick, while the Banshee felt slower. That's going the wrong ways on both accounts. No idea about the Night Gyr, but no engine de-sync is going to nerf it. You can't nerf god-hard points. PGI has still yet to figure that out. If you give something hard points that are too good there's no fixing that. At least the Kodiak's weight keeps it out of most drop decks, but it's still very much the same way.

[Khobai]

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If a mech spends an extra 12+ tons on engine, it should move, accelerate and twist faster than one that doesn't.

nope it shouldnt. it should just move faster and have more internal heatsinks.

the reason is because heavies are in the sweet spot for tonnage and can easily afford to take huge engines while still having more tonnage for weapons and armor. especially clan heavies like the timberwolf because cxl requires no survivability compromise like XL and clan tech weighs less and clan endosteel/ferro is way better.

if heavies are allowed to move as fast as mediums, be as agile as mediums, and carry more weapons and armor... then what the hell is the point of having mediums? heavies do it better so why should mediums even exist?

the only way mediums can find their place in this game is if they have some definitive advantage over heavies. which they currently dont have specifically because engines arnt decoupled from agility. engine decoupling will help mediums become more than just worse heavies; and hopefully at some point in the future mediums will become the most versatile weight class like they always shouldve been from the start.

so no, agility should no longer be based on engine size. we tried that and it didnt work. all it did was screw mediums and put fast heavies on a pedestal that no other weight class can compete with.

Quote

While some lights need help, I fear the best among them, the Artic Cheetah and the Locust, are only going to get faster and even more maneuverable while most mechs are going down

Engine decoupling is mostly intended to nerf fast heavy/assault mechs with oversized engines like the Timberwolf/Kodiak. Very few mechs are going to get directly buffed from it. It will mostly be a relative buff because lights/mediums will stay the same while fast heavies/assaults get nerfed.

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Last time I was on the PTS for the engine de-sync the MADIIC only felt even more agile and quick, while the Banshee felt slower

the MADIIC weighs 10 tons less than a Banshee, why shouldnt it be more agile? and the banshee weighs more, why shouldnt it be slower? thats exactly how it should work, the less a mech weighs, the more agile it should be.

a mech's agility should be inversely proportional to its armor/structure. Because mechs with less armor/structure need more agility to stay alive.

engine decoupling is not meant to balance IS vs Clan. Its simply meant to balance weight classes so lighter weight classes are always more agile than heavier weight classes. For IS vs Clan balance youre going to have to look elsewhere.

Edited by Khobai, 25 April 2017 - 12:57 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Ultimax, on 25 April 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

The one with the 250 will have significantly more tonnage for weapons.

If a mech spends an extra 12+ tons on engine, it should move, accelerate and twist faster than one that doesn't.

At least accelerate. I mean, the engine has more power after all.


What worries me are light mechs. They are the lowest in the food chain and speed and agility are the only things which keeps them somewhat viable. I really hope they get an edge in speed AND agility over the other classes. Else it will be a gunslingerfest

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 April 2017 - 01:25 PM.