549 replies to this topic

[50 50]

Daemon04, on 26 April 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

<Good mechs getting better>

This is probably my biggest concern, as I am sure it is for many others.
You can take a mech like the KDK-3 and with 91 points it's a monster. More than it is now.

I understand that we can't have individual/per chassis point systems and other things like that so the only option I see that will have a meaningful impact is to only allow about a total of 50 points to have allocated.
I say 50 as to stick to one weapon branch it's about 25 points. Similar for other trees.

The reasoning here is that if you take a meck like the KDK (And there are others, it's not alone in the 'uber powerful' stats) then allow us to get a full weapon tree, a full survival tree, full mobility tree and a good chunk of some other tree.... it just keeps making the mech more powerful. Having 91 points allows that.

But, if you only have 50 points, then you might take the weapon tree and a good chunk of survival, but really suffer in mobility, operations and so on. You might be a mean as weapon platform, but the mech handles like a pig in mud and that is it's drawback and the consequence of choice.

We all like playing these mechs and it's fun to keep beefing them up, but this was part of the problem with what we have now. Take the mech and those quirks which make it better, skill it up to make it better, add modules to make it better.
With 91 points... and still having some quirks, it's like skilling the mech up to make it better, add modules to make it better, add more modules to make it better, add more modules to make it better etc.

Cut the points we can have allocated down to 50.
Let's try that.

[DangerousOne]

Racerxintegra2k, on 26 April 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

PGI has really backed themselves into a corner with the Skill Tree. The community is to blame as well. There is no way that everyone is going to be happy on this one. I'd wager a decent part of the population one way or another is going to be pissed off.

The skill tree is literally change for the sake of change. It really doesn't address any issues that it was suppose to except for the rule of 3. Honestly the other possibly negative changes the skill tree will bring makes having the rule of 3 not the worst case scenario.

At the same time the Skill Tree must not be pushed back. So RAMMING speed boys.

1 - Yes
2 - Yes
3 - Please please please NOoooooooooooooo!!!! XD

[Odanan]

My 2 cents:

• Keep all quirks (well, maybe except the mobility quirks); Why? - because the new skill tree buffs all mechs equally.
  
• Reduce the number of nodes (and node points) at least by half - you can proportionally increase the cost; Why? - because the bloated skill tree is too intimidating, too boring. Keep it more objective. Make the choices more meaningful.
  
• Eliminate the jump skill tree (add it as a very small branch of the mobility tree); Why? - because it doesn't worth the points invested.
  
• Reorganize some trees. Arm movement nodes (those are really necessary?) and other niche nodes should be moved to the border of the tree, out of the way to the universal stuff; Why? - people don't like buying useless nodes only to get the good ones.
  
• Refunds should be done in the currency you spent (except for bonus modules from packs or events: those would become C-Bills); Why? - that's the nature of refunding.
  
• And... wait for it... Eliminate all extra currencies. With all old XP of the variant refunded, you just need to click and buy the nodes you want, to the limit of X nodes per individual mech. No currency exchange. No pointless, convoluted systems. Why? - because this game doesn't need to get more complex (in a bad way).

Edited by Odanan, 26 April 2017 - 06:04 AM.

[Commander James Raynor]

50 50, on 26 April 2017 - 05:37 AM, said:

This is probably my biggest concern, as I am sure it is for many others.
You can take a mech like the KDK-3 and with 91 points it's a monster. More than it is now.

I understand that we can't have individual/per chassis point systems and other things like that so the only option I see that will have a meaningful impact is to only allow about a total of 50 points to have allocated.
I say 50 as to stick to one weapon branch it's about 25 points. Similar for other trees.

The reasoning here is that if you take a meck like the KDK (And there are others, it's not alone in the 'uber powerful' stats) then allow us to get a full weapon tree, a full survival tree, full mobility tree and a good chunk of some other tree.... it just keeps making the mech more powerful. Having 91 points allows that.

But, if you only have 50 points, then you might take the weapon tree and a good chunk of survival, but really suffer in mobility, operations and so on. You might be a mean as weapon platform, but the mech handles like a pig in mud and that is it's drawback and the consequence of choice.

We all like playing these mechs and it's fun to keep beefing them up, but this was part of the problem with what we have now. Take the mech and those quirks which make it better, skill it up to make it better, add modules to make it better.
With 91 points... and still having some quirks, it's like skilling the mech up to make it better, add modules to make it better, add more modules to make it better, add more modules to make it better etc.

Cut the points we can have allocated down to 50.
Let's try that.

Although it is true that the KDK-3 will be better than it's now, the engine decoupling (I'm sorry to go on about it, but it's my main concern about these changes) is gonna make it A LOT slower than it is now. I'ts not gonna be able to accelerate or brake as fast as now, and the torso twisting is gonna be like a DWF. In fact it's gonna be as dangerous as a DWF, since both are gonna have the same agility and similarly good hardpoints. The only difference between them is going to be max speed and the fact that the DWF can mount more weapons (because of the hardpoints). In the end, the KDK-3 is going to be harder to kill, almost as much as an Atlas (though not as hard), and it's going to be just as clumsy. As we all know from facing mechs like the KGC, a big, clumsy mech is dangerous to be in front of, but really easy to kill, so I wouldn't worry as much.

[Oswald Skarsol]

Commander James Raynor, on 26 April 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

Read the part about the engine decoupling. What they are doing is giving the acceleration, deceleration, torso and arm movement as an inherent stat to every mech. This way, a mech like the one in your example already is very agile and accelerates quickly, so you don't see the +70%, but it has it. Then, with the skill tree, you can add further agility, like the old skill system did (which was +20% acceleration for a mastered mech). The idea behind this is 1) to nerf clan mechs with big engines so they are not so agile, by giving them lower values than IS mechs and 2) make the spending of skill points on agile mechs more impactful, since now the skills act on the 170% acceleration of the mech, not just the 100%. The first reason is the main one, though, no matter what they say.

This comforts me.

[metallio]

I think the refund system is almost fixed. Sounds like letting us sell GSP for Cbills is a workable fix for the people who have few mechs and many modules, or let people select how much cash vs GSP they want when they first log in...or something similar.

The refund system is an absolute necessity to get right with this big a change and this game community. It just is, so please finish tweaking it until it works...which is just about right now. Just make the GSP/Cbill refund for modules an option somewhere in there and we should be good to go.

The new refund system is over-generous. I thing you're right to do it this way. There will still be grumblers, but such is life.


The new skill system? I want it. There are two things I DON'T want:

1) Respec costs of any kind. Look, I get the desire for some kind of sink for generated points, but this ain't it.

2) Massive time sink performing the actual act of respeccing. I don't know if it's going to pan out like people are suggesting, but if it takes me 10-15 minutes to respec a mech...the game is in trouble. There are fixes to this, choose any one of them. I like "pathing" where you click on what you're after and the game chooses a route to get there that you can modify and I also like "templates" where you save a pattern of spent points for use on later mechs...and/or saved patterns for this particular mech so you can go back to it easily.


I like complicated skill systems. They're fun to explore. You have to make sure that we can play around with it (no respec cost) and that it's functionally possible to do so (not spending a significant amount of time on each respec).

That's it. Other than that every bad part of the skill tree can be worked out. I think there's a good chance that balance is going to go crazy, but if you're ok with doing weekly patches for a while to make adjustments so be it. I still think mechs should have unique numbers of skill points available per variant which would make balancing light years easier, but whatever.

Tweak, implement, respond. It has to go live, just please fix the refund system that last little bit and pretty please remove respec costs. I'll curse while I click for ten minutes, but I won't even do that if it costs what's being suggested.

[exiledangel]

the engine de coupling its going to make sue the Victor stays dead not revive it

[Baba_Yaga]

naterist, on 25 April 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

All this instahate.

#scaredofchange.

Chage is fine,when its not a pathatic joke!

[suffocater]

I still think and highly recommend, that this goes live AFTER or WITH the new tech.

[MovinTarget]

metallio, on 26 April 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

I think the refund system is almost fixed. Sounds like letting us sell GSP for Cbills is a workable fix for the people who have few mechs and many modules, or let people select how much cash vs GSP they want when they first log in...or something similar.

The refund system is an absolute necessity to get right with this big a change and this game community. It just is, so please finish tweaking it until it works...which is just about right now. Just make the GSP/Cbill refund for modules an option somewhere in there and we should be good to go.

The new refund system is over-generous. I thing you're right to do it this way. There will still be grumblers, but such is life.


The new skill system? I want it. There are two things I DON'T want:

1) Respec costs of any kind. Look, I get the desire for some kind of sink for generated points, but this ain't it.

2) Massive time sink performing the actual act of respeccing. I don't know if it's going to pan out like people are suggesting, but if it takes me 10-15 minutes to respec a mech...the game is in trouble. There are fixes to this, choose any one of them. I like "pathing" where you click on what you're after and the game chooses a route to get there that you can modify and I also like "templates" where you save a pattern of spent points for use on later mechs...and/or saved patterns for this particular mech so you can go back to it easily.


I like complicated skill systems. They're fun to explore. You have to make sure that we can play around with it (no respec cost) and that it's functionally possible to do so (not spending a significant amount of time on each respec).

That's it. Other than that every bad part of the skill tree can be worked out. I think there's a good chance that balance is going to go crazy, but if you're ok with doing weekly patches for a while to make adjustments so be it. I still think mechs should have unique numbers of skill points available per variant which would make balancing light years easier, but whatever.

Tweak, implement, respond. It has to go live, just please fix the refund system that last little bit and pretty please remove respec costs. I'll curse while I click for ten minutes, but I won't even do that if it costs what's being suggested.

What would be nice is instead of paying for respeccs you could pay for "looks": a set of active nodes, based on how you want to play that mech atm.

So you have a mech that could be a Dakka beast or Laser Vomit:
You get your "default" profile that has all the skills you want unlocked for Dakka, you can change this as much as you want for free. Then you can "buy" a second profile and set that up for your vomit skills, again, you can play with it as much as you want for free...

What PGI would then be selling is convenience and it would also allow for experimentation within a profile without fear of wasting SP/XP/Cbills. If you don't need more than one profile, then good for you, you still get to respec unlocked nodes for free.

It would be along the same lines as FP drop decks, giving you the convenience of being able to have more decks ready.

This would also offer a cbill-sink for all the players that would be space-rich if they got a pure cbill refund from modules...

Edit: Re-reading what I posted - Just to clarify, I'm not saying get rid of the initial cost(s) to unlock nodes, just that once its unlocked, you can re-activate it without an XP cost if you have less that 91 active skills currently...

Edited by MovinTarget, 26 April 2017 - 06:44 AM.

[ThiefofAlways]

Can someone explain something to me I seem to be missing this even after reading over everything. I have ~250 million c-bills work of modules. I go on the server and it lists these and there value but I am only getting a refund of 58 million c-bills. Where is the rest going. I want the c-bills what am I missing?

Edited by ThiefofAlways, 26 April 2017 - 06:50 AM.

[Tekamen]

ThiefofAlways, on 26 April 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

Can someone explain something to me I seem to be missing this even after reading over everything. I have ~250 million c-bills work of modules. I go on the server and it lists these and there value but I am only getting a refund of 58 million c-bills. Where is the rest going. I want the c-bills what am I missing?

Refer to the PTS patch notes under Ledger.

Modules purchased after December 3rd 2016 - the date of the original Skill Tree announcement at Mech_Con - are being refunded in the form of C-Bills.

Modules purchased prior to December 3rd 2016 are being refunded in the form of General Skill Points (GSP), which can be consumed to unlock Skill Nodes for any 'Mech you wish.

Edited by Tekamen, 26 April 2017 - 06:57 AM.

[Virlutris]

I need to art up a more complete response, which may or may not be possible. This turned out longer than I originally thought, but words are what I can do at the moment.

In the interest of providing some feedback though:

These trees feel like rat's nests. I wasn't able to get in on the last PTS, so this was my first look. It's needlessly tangled, when we have alternatives if we choose to use them.

We can instead make each skill a branch of it's own, like a spoke on a wheel or even like a snowflake, which does a couple things:

1) It allows devs to tune the distinct skill branches individually, for ease of balancing (which will be a godsend with new tech incoming).

1a) Each skill progression can be as cheap or expensive as you like without blocking other skills' nodes that are downstream, as things currently stand. Every tangle downstream of those changes gets affected if something under the current system gets tuned, and rearranging nodes to fit balance changes and new tech is a headache waiting to happen.

1b) Expense-tuning to balance partial or full access to especially potent modifications can be done either by making nodes more expensive individually (double or triple SP value), diluting the skill over more nodes, or by spreading them out into a parallel branches as bottlenecks and setting them up as two-(or three-)part gates (after the first node, you'd need all of the side-by-side nodes to get the fourth, or somesuch).

2) It allows and requires us to make meaningful and discreet fine-tuned choices without having to select completely irrelevant skills for the our extra-special snowflake config. If I want that super-super info warfare Raven, it'll still cost me an appropriate amount for its effect on game balance (see above), but my choice will be clear, distinct, and that much more meaningful.

It also allows newer players and veterans alike to see what they're doing clearly. Confusing, muddled, and tangled decision-making doesn't help the perception of the reality of this game's learning curve, or the quality of life for loyal longtime players.

As to GSP, this seems like a needless mechanic. If the idea is to not crash each player's individual economy with the company, GSP only hides the glut of XP and c-bills rather than showing it transparently. The net effect is still there in terms of flooding the individual player's economy with purchasing power. What it does do is force that purchasing power (specifically the c-bills) to remain invested in skills, which is a mixed bag.

While that may be working as intended, it removes a possible positive (for PGI) economic opportunity. Players flush with cash may choose to spend that cash on mechs instead of skills.

"But ..." you say? But what do mech purchasers need? Mechbays. What do they need to do to get them? Microtransactions. If they've got c-bills, want mechs, and can't fit them in their account without more bays, it incentivises MC purchases to buy the bays. If those c-bills are locked away behind a one-off construct, they can't overheat player spending to the point of needing those mechbays.

I'm aiming for constructive feedback in the face of a change that concerns me. I hope I've hit the mark.

[process]

Tekamen, on 26 April 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

Refer to the PTS patch notes under Ledger.

Modules purchased after December 3rd 2016 - the date of the original Skill Tree announcement at Mech_Con - are being refunded in the form of C-Bills.

Modules purchased prior to December 3rd 2016 are being refunded in the form of General Skill Points (GSP), which can be consumed to unlock Skill Nodes for any 'Mech you wish.

And GSP is equivalent to 45,000 cbills + 800 XP. So you are being compensated for cbills, except it's more like monopoly money since you can only spend it on buying skill nodes.

Edited by process, 26 April 2017 - 06:59 AM.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

I've been reading all the posts on the general forums and PTS forums, and all I can say is, I'm literally never going to spend a dime on this game again if PGI goes through with the convoluted new currency invention for refunds thing. I've said this before, refund people the currency that they first spent.

Mech XP = Mech XP

GXP = HXP

Cbills = Cbills

MC = MC

Mastered Mechs = 91 SPs.

I made it simple for you PGI, don't screw up.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 26 April 2017 - 07:05 AM.

[Draglock]

I like it. You have to make choices for the roll of the mech your working on. And I love the way it tells you what you get from what you already had and from someone that has 265 mech and moving mods around I'm happy with what I got back.

[axerion]

besides many other topics worth adressing i would like to post one suggestion to reduce the "skilltree-klicking-online"-expierence ahead of me and many others...

I own ~ 250 mechs

They are most likely all mastered out and I own enough moduls (prior december), so that I won´t have to grind XP for the next years to come....


Problem:
What bothers me is the amount of simple klicking I will have to do, to master all of my existing ~ 250 mechs (with confirming and everything ~ +50.000 klicks...)

Solution:
just like when I deactivate one skillnode on Top of a skill tree all subsequent skillnodes are deavtivated make it work the other way around as well

so - if I choose to activate f.e. "Speed tweak 5" I have to do at least 15 klicks right now, but it could be just one!
- if I could directly choose it and the 14 other required skillnodes would be piked by the system

ok, sometimes the system might not pick "the right ones" meaning the way I would have chosen, but it would still be easier to change that before confirming since I would still have to choose those other skillnodes I would like to have as well, but this would reduce the amount of klicking tremendously....

Edited by axerion, 26 April 2017 - 07:33 AM.

[Tordin]

They need hate to feel justified. That for sure is contructive you know, and it helps all of us... Still PGI NEEDS to take into consideration to balance the buffs the nodes gives for IS vs Clans and the weakest chassi for both sides. Or else one sidemight just be plain out more favorable and leave the other in oblivion.
I bet Chris and his helpers (our new balance overlord) will get a REAL headache trying to balance it all, since it seems he dont want any mech, equipment or weapon to be useless. Good luckI say.

Also, Im just waiting for a whiteknight counter strike on these black knight salt criers. Gonna be a real smackdown....

[DAYLEET]

I updated the pts and played in the lab and testing ground only.


Really like the refund.

True Conversion of grinded mech. Seeing all the time put in them gone to waste was incredibly depressing. Now i can go on and buy new mech and grind those and be able to go back to my old ones.

Modules conversion that translate directly into their first purposes. This will lessen the cost of unlocking nodes past the 91 for testing purposes on new mech.

MC consumable refund? Cool, Thanks!

Refund of duplicate mech. This make so much sense.



Things im not sure about yet.

Disparity between lights(and some meds) and everyone else. Speed and agility are not a given anymore and the cost is heavy. Lights have to make a decision between agility, armor, mech operation, sensors. They need all of those to survive. Lights can equip 5JJ and still fly like a bloated whale and i cant envision myself paying for jj buff in the next iteration of the game unless my mech is already very strong. Will find out how it plays out when it releases but it does feel like lights get the shaft again. Crutch no-hitblox lct or dumb srm bomber might become more prevalent which, as this last event showed, really put the game in a ****** place.

As lights become even weaker, they wont be able to realisticaly afford MISC/Mech Operation/Weapons/JJ. Heavier weight class will be able to afford to swap things around and they arent the ones that need it the most. I want a skill tree to be able to customise my mech, i hope i wont end up with the exact same thing on every mech because the other choices arent good enough or restric my choices too much.

I know the other weight class gets potentialy weaker too but at the same rate. Thats the thing, at the same rate. Dbuff are exponential the lighter or weaker you are. Assault/Heavies can afford to get weaker with each others as well as versus med/lights. A light can afford to get weaker versus other light but not versus stronger mech and the curve just got steeper versus other weight class.

I hope you are willing to aggresivly balance mech that are too strong. If you dont like red_text dbuff... what will do you without adding even more powercreep?

Not so nice things. Just one actually but still walloftext because dayleet.

Cost 400g/xp to reequip an unlocked node. There is 242 nodes to unlock per mech. Granted about 70 nodes will never go unlocked because JJ/MISC/Half The Weapon nodes will never get used but still. 400g/xp is a lot, especially for new players. This hurts the mech you have a hard time playing the most and need to tweak as you play. This is totally counter productive to the fun that should be grinding a mech. It feels less like an achievement to unlock a node(or a mech) if you have to pay for it again.

I DO have a lot of GXP that i can use instead of XP, for over 1000 nodes(1k nodes wont last long). OR plain xp for mech i play often, which are the mech im always changing for fun in the first place But... i dunno. Its a freedom id like to have to change my mech anyway i please without the "hmm should i even spend to try this setup on this particular mech". Cost makes it easier to play it safe, which usually is boring. Converting GXP and XP to SP also cost cbills on top.

Are you really sure that without both of those speed bump, im not going to have fun because too much monies/xp? Time will tell i guess. I dont know how long it wil ltake to drain my ressources or if i ever will but i like to change things, i equip and remove fero/endo all the time for exemple, i like to change things. I know im probably not representative of 90% of the player base when i play 10+ match in a mech in a single night and i change it 4 times and thats only the weapons and upgrades. Now with a skilltree... i will have to seriously hold myself and stick to a plan that works and im not sure thats the definition of fun but time will tell i guess.

All we do in this game is buy new mech, new gear, new upgrades and grind them. I want a skill tree but i dont want to pay for it everytime i wana try something. When civil war release everyone will be broke, im already broke, i sit on 40million cbills. Will obviously have to wait till its live and is played in a real world scenario.

Edited by DAYLEET, 26 April 2017 - 07:31 AM.

[ThiefofAlways]

Tekamen,

Thanks, but that is where the problem for me comes in I started Nov of 2016 and most of my modules are post skill tree announcement so I would be expecting a large refund in c-bills. 80% to 90% of that 250 million is post announcement.

I was told I would get full refund so I want a full refund in the currency that I spent.

Edited by ThiefofAlways, 26 April 2017 - 07:35 AM.