38 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

I don't see why you should get C-bills back for modules before the december deadline.

why? You spend it for modules and you will get GSP to use it for module-skills.
why would you even assume you get to re-spend the module C-bills for mechs?!

it's not meant to give you free mechs, it is refunded to give you free skills that give you the effects of previously bought modules.

and what to do with more than 91 GSP / mech?
Easy: try out different builds with the 242 total nodes per mech for FREE! (before changing to your final build and using few extra xp for already unlocked nodes)

Edited by Reno Blade, 27 April 2017 - 01:58 AM.

[Marius Romanis]

Ockish, on 26 April 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

I can use my modules on ten different mech's in a day. Can you move these skill points from one mech to another between matches while your friend's are waiting?

Your a bad friend.

[Myc]

The reason, Reno, is that if we hadn't bought those modules we could have purchased mechs instead. A lot of people did purchase mechs instead. So some players that have earned the same amount of CBills in their career when compared to me may have 100 more mechs than I do, but no modules. If this pilot has all of their mechs mastered and so do I, we will both have all of our mechs mastered after the change. What will I spend all of this GSP on? Mechs purchased in the future? No; that is not fair. I spent upward of a billion Cbills on modules that other pilots spent on mechs. If I get GSP for them, make that necessary on currently owned mechs for the grind. Then the players that didn't buy modules can grind theirs up. Or, better yet, just refund the modules. Don't punish certain players and not others.

[Reno Blade]

Myc, on 27 April 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

The reason, Reno, is that if we hadn't bought those modules we could have purchased mechs instead. A lot of people did purchase mechs instead. So some players that have earned the same amount of CBills in their career when compared to me may have 100 more mechs than I do, but no modules.
If this pilot has all of their mechs mastered and so do I, we will both have all of our mechs mastered after the change.

What will I spend all of this GSP on?
Mechs purchased in the future?
No; that is not fair. I spent upward of a billion Cbills on modules that other pilots spent on mechs. If I get GSP for them, make that necessary on currently owned mechs for the grind. Then the players that didn't buy modules can grind theirs up. Or, better yet, just refund the modules. Don't punish certain players and not others.

I think that we could still say "you dediced this path instead of buying mechs on your own free will until now", so giving the Cbills back for Modules would be unfair for everyone who got mechs and "suffered" un-mastered (no modules) for all the years.


I think the person who bought 100 more mechs vs your 100 modules will not automatically have all these 100 mechs mastered.

Lets say you have 100 mastered mechs and 100 modules, so you get 91 HSP per mech + X times GSP for each module.
Sure you don't "Need" these GSP from the start, but you can get more notes unlocked than 91 to try out other builds (of 242 nodes per mech).

The other guy with 200 mechs and 0 modules will maybe have 100 mastered mechs (same as you) and 100 other mechs (same money as your modules) which are probably only basiced on average (estimated same time to play for his mechs as you for the modules), so he will not have all 91 HSP for the additional mechs.

AND he will have to play all of these additional mechs to "Grind" XP and CBills before unlocking more SP.

Additionaly, he has no GSP to unlock any additional SP on ANY of the 200 mechs (the 100 mastered, nor the 100 basiced) as he had no module that refunded to GSP, so he will ALSO have to play the 100 mastered mechs if he wants to try different builds, while you can just unlock tons of nodes.

So for me, it looks like the 150% or even 200% more GSP you have per mech is a vast advantage over the 50-100% on double the amount of mechs.

[Ockish]

People obviously disagree, and their both right, because they all play differently. Why can't we just have the choice? Maybe some individual choice would be justified?

[Naduk]

people only disagree because they think GSP will be useful
that and people often dont realize that any mech previously mastered gets 91SP for free

most of this confusion comes from
the fact that there is GPS, HSP, GXP, HXP, XP, MXP, CB, MC all as separate currencies
some interact, most dont

its insane

i have a thread going proposing a solution
https://mwomercs.com...-confusion-fix/

please let me know what you think

[MischiefSC]

Return cbills as cbills, XP as XP.

Sure, you'll end up with a fraction as much total resources to master mechs and you'll need to spend about 2,800 MC per mech to convert your XP to GXP to master other mechs but it's the most honest refund type.

[Defensores 6]

slide, on 26 April 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

Most of you aren't looking at the big picture. I think the GSP refund is a great idea when looked at in perspective, which is something a lot of you seem to have lost. For the record I will come out of this with more GSP than I will ever need (273+ mechs worth).

Lets look at things now.
1. Buy a mech. 3-20m Cbills
2. Put what ever weapons/tech you like on it (cost 0-10m depending on choice). This will be the same no matter what
3. Grind out around 70k Xp (+module unlocks if you don't have them)
4. Buy modules 12-25m Cbills depending on what you mount

Total Cost, min 12+tech to 45+tech

The thing that you are missing is that most of us don't need to grind anything. Our Mechs are already mastered with more than enough GSP to remaster it in the new skill tree. I want my cbills back!!

[Motroid]

Reno Blade, on 26 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

I don't see why you should get C-bills back for modules before the december deadline.

why? You spend it for modules and you will get GSP to use it for module-skills.
why would you even assume you get to re-spend the module C-bills for mechs?!

it's not meant to give you free mechs, it is refunded to give you free skills that give you the effects of previously bought modules.

and what to do with more than 91 GSP / mech?
Easy: try out different builds with the 242 total nodes per mech for FREE! (before changing to your final build and using few extra xp for already unlocked nodes)

Because they remove what we originally agreed to pay with c-bills.
They REMOVE the concept of modules for c-bills. That was what we agreed upon.
Since they remove the concept of modules altogether the whole transaction has to be reverted since they don't know if we agree to the new concept. It's totally on PGI for not having a vision for their game...
By the way, it smells like a rip-off. They need the whales with low c-bill count or they stop buying mechpacks since there is no other way to spend the excess c-bills on except 'mechs.
And they try to blame it on the community, on the "cheapskates".
Please set in-game sale value for modules to 80-100% or let us at least know which modules will get refunded with c-bills and which ones you are going to steal. ATM there is no way of knowing....

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Reno Blade, on 27 April 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

I think that we could still say "you dediced this path instead of buying mechs on your own free will until now", so giving the Cbills back for Modules would be unfair for everyone who got mechs and "suffered" un-mastered (no modules) for all the years.


I think the person who bought 100 more mechs vs your 100 modules will not automatically have all these 100 mechs mastered.

Lets say you have 100 mastered mechs and 100 modules, so you get 91 HSP per mech + X times GSP for each module.
Sure you don't "Need" these GSP from the start, but you can get more notes unlocked than 91 to try out other builds (of 242 nodes per mech).

The other guy with 200 mechs and 0 modules will maybe have 100 mastered mechs (same as you) and 100 other mechs (same money as your modules) which are probably only basiced on average (estimated same time to play for his mechs as you for the modules), so he will not have all 91 HSP for the additional mechs.

AND he will have to play all of these additional mechs to "Grind" XP and CBills before unlocking more SP.

Additionaly, he has no GSP to unlock any additional SP on ANY of the 200 mechs (the 100 mastered, nor the 100 basiced) as he had no module that refunded to GSP, so he will ALSO have to play the 100 mastered mechs if he wants to try different builds, while you can just unlock tons of nodes.

So for me, it looks like the 150% or even 200% more GSP you have per mech is a vast advantage over the 50-100% on double the amount of mechs.

So when PGI decided to screw the ppl with manny mechs by fusing cbill and xp parts of the old skill tree together in the new skill tree we were on your side and fought along side with you while for us all was ok. Now the sides have turned and ppl like you shrug and go away. It not your problem so its ok. Its ******* not.

Even if the GSP would be three times as valauable as cbills i dont want them. I didnt grind that, its not mine. What i did grind were cbills for modules. And i decided to have fewer mechs but all geared up. Which was ok. Now they take that cbills away and give me GSP which i dont meed because i already have enough hsx to master tehm anyway. They exchange my cbills which something i dont need. In essence i denied myself a lot of mechs in exchange for gearewd up mechs. Now they take that away and give everybody full mastered mechs, because elts face it - everybody has a few modules and that all you need to master a huge bunch of mechs. This totally nullifies the descision to buy modules. Its even worse. I had every mech masterd to the point where i had them all fittet with modules. the otehrs didnt have that. their mechs were masterd in teh XP part but not the cbill part. The new system gives them fully mastered mechs for free while i am stuck on half the amount of fully mastered mechs even though i put the same time and effort into the game. This is ********.

[Koniving]

ForceUser, on 25 April 2017 - 09:28 PM, said:

Any modules bought before the.. 3rd of December? gets refunded as GSP (not GXP) any modules bought after that is refunded as cbills.

In both cases you get refunded for the full cbill value that you spent on modules.

This confused me more.

If I bought after December 3rd I get cbills for the modules I bought with cbills.
Prior to this.... I get GSP instead of cbills?

What the heck is GSP anyway?

[ForceUser]

Koniving, on 30 April 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

This confused me more.

If I bought after December 3rd I get cbills for the modules I bought with cbills.
Prior to this.... I get GSP instead of cbills?

What the heck is GSP anyway?

Every node in the skill tree costs 45k cbills and 800XP. A GSP is a node you can apply to any mech you own/will ever own. You get refunded 1 GSP for every 45k cbills worth of modules you owned before 3rd December. You effectively get 800 free XP with every GSP.

The reason why you are being refunded cbills for modules bought after the 3rd of December is because that's when Russ first mentioned that modules would probably be refunded with Cbills (in the initial refund scheme). So a lot of people bought modules with the thought that they would be refunded with cbills.

Edited by ForceUser, 30 April 2017 - 04:05 PM.

[Koniving]

ForceUser, on 30 April 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

Every node in the skill tree costs 45k cbills and 800XP. A GSP is a node you can apply to any mech you own/will ever own. You get refunded 1 GSP for every 45k cbills worth of modules you owned before 3rd December. You effectively get 800 free XP with every GSP.

The reason why you are being refunded cbills for modules bought after the 3rd of December is because that's when Russ first mentioned that modules would probably be refunded with Cbills (in the initial refund scheme). So a lot of people bought modules with the thought that they would be refunded with cbills.

I see.

Mixed feelings, I kinda wanted to be able to get some new mechs to help revitalize MWO for myself.
But being able to brisk through unlocking stuff that I already worked hard to have unlocked is..kinda ok?
At least it isn't really one of these..

...even though in a way it is (as some of those huge refunds would basically make "Earning cbills" pretty much obsolete).

[ForceUser]

The problem (or part of the problem) is that PGI is already dumping a lot of free cbills into peoples accounts as is since masteries in the old system did not cost cbills but for every mastered mech you get 4mill cbills. So now people want more cbills on top of that and PGI is actually willing to kind of give that to them as well but not in liquid form.

From PGI's viewpoint every XP or Cbill that they give players for free that they did not earn is time that player does not have to invest into the game or buy premium to increase the rate of acquisition.

Players tend to feel they earned, or are entitled to, more than what they realistically earned (pretty normal). And here is where another part of the problem comes in, in that the old and new skill tree isn't comparable apples to apples because the module system is not only being merged into it, it's being changed as well, both in the fundamental way the module mechanic works as well as the worth and cost.

The first iteration of the refund system basically directly refunded every single XP point and Cbill point a player earned. It was 100% accurate but it was not acceptable to parts of the player base (whales and shrewd module swappers for the most part) so PGI decided to change to a more generous refund in terms of value but lock it in specific currencies to avoid hyperinflation.

Part of what ticks me off though is that people said so long as they would be abel to keep mastery levels on their mechs they would be happy, but they will never, ever be happy. This is a fact.

Edited by ForceUser, 30 April 2017 - 04:35 PM.

[the sixth tier]

i'm surprised nobody noticed how far off the "about 1%" was. a billion is a thousand million, not a hundred million.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

ForceUser, on 30 April 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

The problem (or part of the problem) is that PGI is already dumping a lot of free cbills into peoples accounts as is since masteries in the old system did not cost cbills but for every mastered mech you get 4mill cbills. So now people want more cbills on top of that and PGI is actually willing to kind of give that to them as well but not in liquid form.

From PGI's viewpoint every XP or Cbill that they give players for free that they did not earn is time that player does not have to invest into the game or buy premium to increase the rate of acquisition.

Players tend to feel they earned, or are entitled to, more than what they realistically earned (pretty normal). And here is where another part of the problem comes in, in that the old and new skill tree isn't comparable apples to apples because the module system is not only being merged into it, it's being changed as well, both in the fundamental way the module mechanic works as well as the worth and cost.

The first iteration of the refund system basically directly refunded every single XP point and Cbill point a player earned. It was 100% accurate but it was not acceptable to parts of the player base (whales and shrewd module swappers for the most part) so PGI decided to change to a more generous refund in terms of value but lock it in specific currencies to avoid hyperinflation.

Part of what ticks me off though is that people said so long as they would be abel to keep mastery levels on their mechs they would be happy, but they will never, ever be happy. This is a fact.

You are still wrong. The GSP i get are worth nothing to me. I have eough HSP on every mech i own to level them anyway. In order to use the GSP, i have to grind and buy mechs for 2 years to actually use the 4 million cbills that are locked in the skill tree. I have to buy 200 mechs to get back the 800 million that i am not getting back in modules. Thats not giving **** for free. Thsi way it is locked behind a 2 year long grind. I payed Cbills - cbills is what i get back! Thats the only way its going to go or i pull all teh preorders that arent delivered when then skill tree goes live.

I denied myself a lot of mechs over the years because i fittet every mech with modules and truly mastered them instead of mastering them half way, only in the XP department. It was ok in the old tree since i had something to show for the cbills i invested.

Now i have to grind 2 years to actually be able to use what i already grinded. Thats ********.

People were ok with beeing able to master everyting because at teh time it was said that modules would get a full refund. That has changed.

And i hate how you talk down to people as if you would know everything. Dismissing legitimite concerns only because you dont have that problem is all you did so far concerning teh topic at hand.

The best sollution to this would be to make the nodes in the skill tree cost different amounts in xp and cbills that refelct the module prices. You threw all your Cbills away and never brought modules and only mastered your mech halfway and now expect to have your mechs fully mastered when in fact they arent fully mastered now. But since you get that its ok for you. And its ok for you that ppl who fully mastered their mechs have their cbills locked behind a multi year grind for hundreds of mechs. This way you simply throw the people udner the buss who had your back when you were unhappy with teh skill tree.

How about you sell a few of the mechs that dont have modules on them to pay for the remastery - hwo would you like that?

Edited by Cara Carcass, 02 May 2017 - 03:44 AM.

[FallingAce]

ForceUser, on 30 April 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

The problem (or part of the problem) is that PGI is already dumping a lot of free cbills into peoples accounts as is since masteries in the old system did not cost cbills but for every mastered mech you get 4mill cbills. So now people want more cbills on top of that and PGI is actually willing to kind of give that to them as well but not in liquid form.

The cbill cost for me to respec my 85 mechs would be 348,075,000. My module value is 686,000,000. That means the new refund model is costing me 347,000,000 to get 15,178 GSP (166 mechs) That means for me to break even, i'd have to buy 85 more mechs. I've "only" bought 85 mechs in 3 years. At my current rate of purchasing, "my non liquid assets" will be tied up for 3 years.




PTS refund 1.0 Punished the people with no modules and many mechs (the cheapskates)

PTS refund 2.0 punishes the people with many modules.

The reason why some people (the cheapskates) think 2.0 is such a good deal is they are getting 91 nodes on their mastered mechs when they only deserve ~61. That would be a bonus. The people with many modules are getting the same 91 nodes but have to give up the value of modules. That would be a penalty. (And no, GSP is not a viable substitute)

So now, we need to find a middle ground where it is more equitable for both sides. (the haves or the have-nots)

Just remember, at the end of the day, this is all about creating a new tax cbill sink.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

FallingAce, on 02 May 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

The cbill cost for me to respec my 85 mechs would be 348,075,000. My module value is 686,000,000. That means the new refund model is costing me 347,000,000 to get 15,178 GSP (166 mechs) That means for me to break even, i'd have to buy 85 more mechs. I've "only" bought 85 mechs in 3 years. At my current rate of purchasing, "my non liquid assets" will be tied up for 3 years.




PTS refund 1.0 Punished the people with no modules and many mechs (the cheapskates)

PTS refund 2.0 punishes the people with many modules.

The reason why some people (the cheapskates) think 2.0 is such a good deal is they are getting 91 nodes on their mastered mechs when they only deserve ~61. That would be a bonus. The people with many modules are getting the same 91 nodes but have to give up the value of modules. That would be a penalty. (And no, GSP is not a viable substitute)

So now, we need to find a middle ground where it is more equitable for both sides. (the haves or the have-nots)

Just remember, at the end of the day, this is all about creating a new tax cbill sink.

Finally somebody with a brain who understands that the roles are reversed now.
Or perhaps the reason is not that they don not udnerstand it, but that they do not want to admit it?

[Znail]

FallingAce, on 02 May 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

The cbill cost for me to respec my 85 mechs would be 348,075,000. My module value is 686,000,000. That means the new refund model is costing me 347,000,000 to get 15,178 GSP (166 mechs) That means for me to break even, i'd have to buy 85 more mechs. I've "only" bought 85 mechs in 3 years. At my current rate of purchasing, "my non liquid assets" will be tied up for 3 years.




PTS refund 1.0 Punished the people with no modules and many mechs (the cheapskates)

PTS refund 2.0 punishes the people with many modules.

The reason why some people (the cheapskates) think 2.0 is such a good deal is they are getting 91 nodes on their mastered mechs when they only deserve ~61. That would be a bonus. The people with many modules are getting the same 91 nodes but have to give up the value of modules. That would be a penalty. (And no, GSP is not a viable substitute)

So now, we need to find a middle ground where it is more equitable for both sides. (the haves or the have-nots)

Just remember, at the end of the day, this is all about creating a new tax cbill sink.

Quite a good post that makes the issue clear and I agree that it needs some kind of fix. At a bare minimum so should the GSP be possible to be sold at half the c-bill price.

It's kind of interesting that they seems to only be able to make things work well for the average player and gets issues with the extremes.