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Diminishing Returns Instead Of Dead Nodes (Revamp)


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#1 Ced Riggs

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:18 AM

Heya,

I am not sure why PGI doesn't give us a skill system with diminishing returns, where we get less and less for currency invested, but we can opt out of skills we have no care for. I would much prefer a system that allows me to simply pick up a skill and invest however many points I feel like into it. This isn't Diablo III, where I get every skill eventually - I am forced to pick up nodes I have no care for, or that do literally nothing for my chassis, all for the sake of "commitment" and "price to pay for getting all those bonuses". Doubling and sometimes even tripling the effective cost of nodes isn't the way to go.

Let me to explain with numbers:



Diminishing Returns over dead nodes

Firepower

- General Branch
- - Cooldown (11 nodes possible) [Max total value: -7.7%]
- - Range (10) [Max: 15%]
- - Heat Generation (8) [Max: -8%]

- Specific Branch
- - Missile/Projectile Velocity (5) [Max: +10%]
- - Laser Duration (10) [Max: -10%]
- - LBX Spread (5) [Max: -10%]
- - UAC Jam Chance (5) [Max: -5%]
- - Missile Spread (5) [Max: -5%]
- - Missile Crit (5) [Max: +15%]
- - Gauss Charge (5) [Max: +1.25]
- - Ballistic Mag Size (2) [Max: +20%]

Cooldown, in 10 steps, based on 8% max (both adjusted for simplicity of calculation):
1 node: -0.96% (-0.96% change)
2 nodes: -1.92% (-0.96% change)
3 nodes: -2.80% (-0.88% change)
4 nodes: -3.68% (-0.88% change)
5 nodes: -4.48% (-0.80% change)
6 nodes: -5.28% (-0.80% change)
7 nodes: -6.00% (-0.72% change)
8 nodes: -6.72% (-0.72% change)
9 nodes: -7.36% (-0.64% change)
10 nodes: -8.00% (-0.64% change)
Change metric: 1.2, 1.2, 1.1, 1.1, 1.0, 1.0, 0.9, 0.9, 0.8, 0.8

UAC Jam Chance, in 5 steps, based on 5% max:
1 node: -1.2% (-1.2% change)
2 nodes: -2.3% (-1.1% change)
3 nodes: -3.3% (-1.0% change)
4 nodes: -4.2% (-0.9% change)
5 nodes: -5.0% (-0.8% change)
Change metric: 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 0.9, 0.8

That way, we would be able to spec into the skills we like, while having incentive to go wide over hyperfocussing. If we want to hyperfocus, we can, and if we do, we get punished to some extent. If we don't, we would get rewarded for diversifying. Boating and mixing both come away with something to show for their choices - boats can have their specific weapon systems maxed out, and mixed platforms can have multiple weapon systems perform above bar without losing all that much elsewhere, because the big payouts are in the beginning of a skill progression.

Example spec (40 points spent in firepower)
For a theoretical Dakka build with Laser support

Firepower

- General Branch
- - Cooldown ▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰
- - Range ▰▰▰▰▰▱▱▱▱▱
- - Heat Generation ▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▱▱

- Specific Branch
- - Missile/Projectile Velocity ▰▰▱▱
- - Laser Duration ▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▱▱
- - LBX Spread ▱▱▱▱▱
- - UAC Jam Chance ▰▰▰▰▰
- - Missile Spread ▱▱▱▱▱
- - Missile Crit ▱▱▱▱▱
- - Gauss Charge ▱▱▱▱▱
- - Ballistic Mag Size ▰▰

Thoughts behind it: Cooldown benefits all weapons, is maxed. Heat Gen, Velocity, Laser Duration have their least effective nodes nipped in favor of mag size to be able to save on tonnage, velocity to make the dakka more snappy and range for, well, range. UAC Jam Chance is a crucial skill and thus also maxed, despite the diminishing returns. Through an effective leveling of what is wanted and what is secondary, the player can mix and match weapon systems and still has to make conscious choices. Anywhere he focusses, he gets less and less of an effect, anywhere he dips and diversifies, he gets more for his initial investment.

Suddenly, all choice have meaning and you still have a price to pay for commitment. Adapt as applicable to the other skill tabs.

/discuss

Edited by Ced Riggs, 26 April 2017 - 05:19 AM.


#2 Excalibaard

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 05:54 AM

Good idea, I described something similar in my thread which is a bit more restricted, because making all points too easily available just means everyone gets cooldown and heat nodes on every build. I hope PGI listens. Less web-like clutter, more meaningful skills Posted Image

https://mwomercs.com...he-tree-layout/

Edited by Excalibaard, 26 April 2017 - 06:08 AM.


#3 Jikil

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:03 AM

I really like this idea but I think you need to lock certain nodes with requirements that certain amounts of skill points must be spent in that tree before you can get successive ranks of the more powerful skills like cooldown and heat generation.

With 91 skill points it should be somewhat of an investment to get all the cooldown or heat gen in the firepower tree.

You solution also presents another problem, that is nodes that no one will ever take. I will never find myself taking speed retention if I don't have to. It isn't a bad skill but in the grand scheme of things I'm pretty much toast if I lose a leg so why would it matter that I can limp around faster.

There are lots of skills like this unfortunately and I think that's why we won't get the implementation your proposing.

#4 Ced Riggs

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:16 AM

View PostJikil, on 26 April 2017 - 06:03 AM, said:

You solution also presents another problem, that is nodes that no one will ever take.
And we shouldn't have to take them now either. That's the point.

#5 Cedron

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 06:20 AM

View PostJikil, on 26 April 2017 - 06:03 AM, said:

You solution also presents another problem, that is nodes that no one will ever take. I will never find myself taking speed retention if I don't have to. It isn't a bad skill but in the grand scheme of things I'm pretty much toast if I lose a leg so why would it matter that I can limp around faster.


A skill that no one would ever take willingly is a bad skill that shouldn't be in the game at all.

#6 Ced Riggs

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:35 AM

View PostCedron, on 26 April 2017 - 06:20 AM, said:


A skill that no one would ever take willingly is a bad skill that shouldn't be in the game at all.

... my thoughts exactly. I strongly dislike that I am being forced to take something I would never, ever invest into unless, well, forced to do so.

#7 Kuaron

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:57 AM

I'd choose the regression much higher, i.e. 2->0.5 instead of 1.2->0.8.
But generally, I support ofc. an idea I have been supporting for quite a time already. ^^

#8 Chound

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 04:43 PM

View PostExcalibaard, on 26 April 2017 - 05:54 AM, said:

Good idea, I described something similar in my thread which is a bit more restricted, because making all points too easily available just means everyone gets cooldown and heat nodes on every build. I hope PGI listens. Less web-like clutter, more meaningful skills Posted Image

https://mwomercs.com...he-tree-layout/


I think I need to challnge the cooldown and heat gen nodes are applicable to everyone. for a nova taking nodes for torso twist is a waste of time because it doesn't really have a lower torso . They sort of have legs. The arms are locked in one position but we still need to take nodes to improve the range and speed the arms. I find there aren't enough nodes for all the features I want. maybe a minimum number of nodes to consider a nech mastered. This is due to the modules items that are in the tree





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