257 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

With the 1st iteration of the refund, PGI basically told the "cheapskates" that choose the first way (more mechs, less modules) that because not every mech is moduled, they are not "mastered". With this 2nd iteration of the refund, PGI is telling the same "cheapskates" that even though their mechs don't all have modules, they are still going to get 91 pts to put into their skill tree as if they are all moduled. Then, for the players that choose the second way (less mechs but all fully moduled) they also get all 91 pts per mech (as they should) and then this new currency of GSP (that can be used on future mechs, but no cbills to buy those future mechs).

Does PGI see how this puts the players in the 1st category far far ahead of the players in the 2nd category, even if both spent the same amount of c-bills up until now, but went down different choice paths?

I'll put it another way. Two players both have 100 million c-bills. Player A spends 50 million on 5 mechs (10 million each) and 50 million on modules to fully module them. Player B spends 100 million c-bills on 10 mechs (10 million each, and no money on modules period). When the refund comes, Player A now has 5 mechs still fully mastered, and GSP to master another 5 mechs, while Player B has 10 mechs still fully mastered, and no GSP to master any further mechs. Both spent 100 million, Player A now needs to spend another 50 million to be ON PAR with Player B's account (10 mechs each fully mastered).

I'm not arguing that players that didn't buy modules shouldn't get 91 pts to remain fully mastered in the new system, I'm arguing that players that bought modules should get their full refund back as well. Give us full c-bill refund for modules back

[PurplePuke]

Why should I expect a full refund on a module I bought a year ago and got hours and hours of use from?

That makes no sense.

Way too much whining and complaining about the Skill Tree. Just drop the damn thing, we'll all be treated equally. Get on with it.
You're not being ripped off.

I'm a so-called "cheapskate" module switcher, and I don't give a damn how much refund I get, as long as we're all treated the same.

Get on with the Skill Tree and stop whining! The game is stale and needs some of the interesting changes offered by the Skill Tree.

(Now where'd I put my meds?)

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 April 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

With the 1st iteration of the refund, PGI basically told the "cheapskates" that choose the first way (more mechs, less modules) that because not every mech is moduled, they are not "mastered". With this 2nd iteration of the refund, PGI is telling the same "cheapskates" that even though their mechs don't all have modules, they are still going to get 91 pts to put into their skill tree as if they are all moduled. Then, for the players that choose the second way (less mechs but all fully moduled) they also get all 91 pts per mech (as they should) and then this new currency of GSP (that can be used on future mechs, but no cbills to buy those future mechs).

Does PGI see how this puts the players in the 1st category far far ahead of the players in the 2nd category, even if both spent the same amount of c-bills up until now, but went down different choice paths?

I'll put it another way. Two players both have 100 million c-bills. Player A spends 50 million on 5 mechs (10 million each) and 50 million on modules to fully module them. Player B spends 100 million c-bills on 10 mechs (10 million each, and no money on modules period). When the refund comes, Player A now has 5 mechs still fully mastered, and GSP to master another 5 mechs, while Player B has 10 mechs still fully mastered, and no GSP to master any further mechs. Both spent 100 million, Player A now needs to spend another 50 million to be ON PAR with Player B's account (10 mechs each fully mastered).

I'm not arguing that players that didn't buy modules shouldn't get 91 pts to remain fully mastered in the new system, I'm arguing that players that bought modules should get their full refund back as well. Give us full c-bill refund for modules back

Exactly right...think it through people!
PGI is creating the equal and opposite issue for the "module-rich, with less mechs" as they did for the "mech-rich, with less modules". The first refund proposal was going to cause and insane C-bill grind to allow this latter group to skill up the mechs to the level of the former group. This version looks like it will cause an insane c-bill grind get the number of Mechs the "mech-rich" group already has (gained by forgoing buying modules). Either way one group has to grind hard to get to where the other group is already at. PGI just flipped who has to do the grinding.

[Khobai]

give us 50% cbill and 50% GSP for our modules

that should adequately appease both groups. everyone gets something then.

[Agent1190]

Deathlike, on 26 April 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

You're assuming that there's an "economy" in this game.

Path of Exile has an economy.

This game does not. You are not even sell or trading anything. Only YOU are buying/selling against yourself.

There is an economy in this game. It's very simple and basic - you play to earn money, you spend money on stuff to play. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's not there.

PGI "sells" mechs and mech-packs for real money. This is real economy. Some people buy these mechs with real money because nostalgia, lore, secret robo-love affair, etc. Some like having the "early access." And some people buy the mechs because it feels cheaper to buy the mech with real money than in game hours/grind (like buying 3 100 ton Kodiaks for $20 versus 50M CBills).

You upset these 2 economies with an influx of CBills. If you are flush with cash, those luxury items have less virtual impact on your virtual account. So, maybe you wait the 3-4 months for in game release, thus denying PGI money it needs to run the game servers. PGI wants you to spend CBills, so items gradually get more expensive. This also makes them more attractive to the "real money" crowd.

It's called inflation... you know, I pretty much explained this in my original thread. Maybe you should read it this time.

[vandalhooch]

Prosperity Park, on 26 April 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

You bought modules to improve mech performance. This includes sensor upgrades, weapon mods, etc.


You did not buy them as if they were trade bonds. You did not buy modules for the sake of using them as a C-Bill reservoir for later liquidation. You did not buy them for the sake of laundering Cbills and refusing to equip them on your Mechs.

Face it, if you bought modules, it is because you wanted to spend your Cbills on weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. If you didn't want these things, you would not have bought those modules.

In exchange for your modules, you are getting skill points that act as weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. You are exchanging upgrades for upgrades.

If you are complaining about this, then you have to openly admit that you bought modules for the sole sake of selling them back later, and *not* to equip them on your Mech to improve performance.

I don't think anyone here is that stupid. So, please, drop the act and stop complaining. I know you are not that dumb, I have faith in you.

Fair is fair. Please accept PGI's plan to confiscate all mechs in your hangar that have ever used a module at all but don't currently carry a full complement of modules. You see, you got the benefit of the upgrades on those mechs but you didn't actually pay for them and that system is going away. Don't worry, you'll be receiving the equivalent value of your reclaimed mechs in GSP. If you don't like this you can sell all of your un-moduled mechs back at 50% markdown. I know you'll be perfectly fine with that because you didn't buy that mech as a trade bond, did you?

EDIT: I spent my C-bills on modules and am now faced with the choice of accepting a 50% return or equivalent GSP. You spent your C-bills on mechs, why are you not now faced with the same choice? Wouldn't that be the fair thing to do?

Edited by vandalhooch, 26 April 2017 - 06:39 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 April 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

With the 1st iteration of the refund, PGI basically told the "cheapskates" that choose the first way (more mechs, less modules) that because not every mech is moduled, they are not "mastered". With this 2nd iteration of the refund, PGI is telling the same "cheapskates" that even though their mechs don't all have modules, they are still going to get 91 pts to put into their skill tree as if they are all moduled. Then, for the players that choose the second way (less mechs but all fully moduled) they also get all 91 pts per mech (as they should) and then this new currency of GSP (that can be used on future mechs, but no cbills to buy those future mechs).

Does PGI see how this puts the players in the 1st category far far ahead of the players in the 2nd category, even if both spent the same amount of c-bills up until now, but went down different choice paths?

I'll put it another way. Two players both have 100 million c-bills. Player A spends 50 million on 5 mechs (10 million each) and 50 million on modules to fully module them. Player B spends 100 million c-bills on 10 mechs (10 million each, and no money on modules period). When the refund comes, Player A now has 5 mechs still fully mastered, and GSP to master another 5 mechs, while Player B has 10 mechs still fully mastered, and no GSP to master any further mechs. Both spent 100 million, Player A now needs to spend another 50 million to be ON PAR with Player B's account (10 mechs each fully mastered).

I'm not arguing that players that didn't buy modules shouldn't get 91 pts to remain fully mastered in the new system, I'm arguing that players that bought modules should get their full refund back as well. Give us full c-bill refund for modules back

So, wait.

You're saying that you should get the full cbill refund for your modules.

Plus the skill points to buy what those modules got you for every mech regardless of how many modules you had?

So if I have 140 mechs that are almost all mastered, plus modules for 20 mechs...

I should get SP to master our all my 140 mechs (which includes the points to buy what the modules got me) plus all the cbills I spent?

Dude that's not very reasonable.

Modules were power creep. The power creep is getting dialed back. Just like it did with Clan mechs. So if they leave modules in and cut their value by 50% each, you'd be good with getting nothing? My TBR is a shadow of the power that was my original TBR at release. There was no refund there.

Again, to clarify. 91SP gets you the points to buy, if you choose, the new version of the value of your modules. The skill tree is in part a way of dialing back 3 years of power creep that includes modules. We complained about it at the time and now it's finally getting dialed back.

You don't get the SP value of modules for every mech you got elites on plus the cbill value of the modules. That's just not reasonable or legit.

[Vxheous]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

So, wait.

You're saying that you should get the full cbill refund for your modules.

Plus the skill points to buy what those modules got you for every mech regardless of how many modules you had?

So if I have 140 mechs that are almost all mastered, plus modules for 20 mechs...

I should get SP to master our all my 140 mechs (which includes the points to buy what the modules got me) plus all the cbills I spent?

Dude that's not very reasonable.

Modules were power creep. The power creep is getting dialed back. Just like it did with Clan mechs. So if they leave modules in and cut their value by 50% each, you'd be good with getting nothing? My TBR is a shadow of the power that was my original TBR at release. There was no refund there.

Again, to clarify. 91SP gets you the points to buy, if you choose, the new version of the value of your modules. The skill tree is in part a way of dialing back 3 years of power creep that includes modules. We complained about it at the time and now it's finally getting dialed back.

You don't get the SP value of modules for every mech you got elites on plus the cbill value of the modules. That's just not reasonable or legit.

You didn't even read my comparison of 100 million c-bills on two different accounts did you? PGI is giving EVERYONE that has a mastered mech (with or without modules on them) 91 points, as if that mech had modules. Which means mech rich, module poor people come out with far better accounts than mech poor, module rich people. At this point, if I could go back and spend my c-bills differently, I wouldn't buy a single module and just load up on mechs, since PGI is treating all mastered mechs as moduled for the sake of 91 skill points.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

So, wait.

You're saying that you should get the full cbill refund for your modules.

Plus the skill points to buy what those modules got you for every mech regardless of how many modules you had?

So if I have 140 mechs that are almost all mastered, plus modules for 20 mechs...

I should get SP to master our all my 140 mechs (which includes the points to buy what the modules got me) plus all the cbills I spent?

Dude that's not very reasonable.

Modules were power creep. The power creep is getting dialed back. Just like it did with Clan mechs. So if they leave modules in and cut their value by 50% each, you'd be good with getting nothing? My TBR is a shadow of the power that was my original TBR at release. There was no refund there.

Again, to clarify. 91SP gets you the points to buy, if you choose, the new version of the value of your modules. The skill tree is in part a way of dialing back 3 years of power creep that includes modules. We complained about it at the time and now it's finally getting dialed back.

You don't get the SP value of modules for every mech you got elites on plus the cbill value of the modules. That's just not reasonable or legit.

Well PGI made the choice not to give people whose previously mastered mechs instead 72 SP like they should have thus making those who bought modules to have a point to getting GSP and being able to fill out all 91 modules on everything. Modules are vanishing by being folded into, so, if GSP is to be the skill points we earned by buying modules why would PGI make it so a previously mastered mech is equally mastered in the new system making it so GSP has no place to go in this new system. Suddenly that GSP is just excess inventory that would have never been bought in the first place.

The problem is the new skill refund system leaves no space for GSP to be valuable on what we have currently therefore it has less value to people who got modules and mastered out their mechs. This means those cbills they spent time and energy to grind out and spend on modules is now rewarded with something they can't use unless they grind out more cbills with more time and energy to buy another mech which maybe they have no interest in doing, maybe they don't want to instantly level a mech, maybe they have so much GSP (I mean you get a ton of GSP for even like a Medium Laser Cooldown Module) that they can screw around for ages before dipping into the likely large bank of historical XP the have on their main mechs.

See where this is going. GSP just has so many other things that it competes against that it doesn't work really. You have free SP from how many skills a mech had unlocked on it before new skill tree which undercuts how many GSP you can deploy onto your mechs into the new system without buying new mechs (expending cbills). You have historical XP which undercuts GSP because you already have XP on said mech that you can apply to it without the rule of 3 locking you out from mastery because you just need the one mech and enough XP and Cbills to master a mech (thus making GSP having another competitor that already exists). Finally there is GXP which now has no use other than to speed up XPing out a new mech as there is no pilot skill system so you take your GXP and cbills to "Free XP" your way through a mech that you have no XP on and this does the same thing that GSP does.

GSP, simply put, is cbills without being cbills, because cbills meant we could buy mechs, consumables, guns, ammo, engines, armor, heat sinks, ect.

People with lots of mechs get out ahead on this, while people with a few mechs and lots of modules or even mechs to modules get screwed. It is the opposite of the first PTS where everyone but the people with a **** ton of mechs came out alright, but, they bitched until the cows ******* exploded into being PGI's cow skull logo.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 April 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

You didn't even read my comparison of 100 million c-bills on two different accounts did you? PGI is giving EVERYONE that has a mastered mech (with or without modules on them) 91 points, as if that mech had modules. Which means mech rich, module poor people come out with far better accounts than mech poor, module rich people. At this point, if I could go back and spend my c-bills differently, I wouldn't buy a single module and just load up on mechs, since PGI is treating all mastered mechs as moduled for the sake of 91 skill points.

I get what you're saying but the problem is that they're over-refunding. It's just a matter of the over-refund being into the realm of pointless in some peoples cases. If everyone got 72 SP for mastery plus X value for modules we'd all be getting less but it would be more 'fair' toward people who bought modules.

Given that I'm going to buy more mechs at some point in the future I'm fine either way. I've got a metric crap ton of modules so I'm fine regardless of the direction they go. The current approach means that all of my mechs, even the ones I've never played, will get to spec up and as such be worth playing in the new system where unspeced mechs are absolute garbage compared to speced mechs as you'd have to grind not just the value of the skills but the modules.

The other problem is that we're getting refunded in SP at the value they currently represent but in the new model with the skill tree everything is nerfed - again, rolling back powercreep.

As to spending cbills differently.... like I said before, I'm not getting refunds for the nerf to my clan mechs either because it's just been years of rolling back power creep. The biggest, stupidest mistake PGI has made in the refund on modules is in over-refunding. At this point we've got people who want the skill points to replace all their skills plus the value of all modules on every mech they just had the skills on, plus all the cbills back for all their modules.

That's not legit. Again, I'm fine no matter which way they go but I'm thinking they need to scale back the SP refund for the skill tree value. They're just making SP worthless.

[Ace Selin]

Tarogato, on 26 April 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

I see what you're trying to say, but you're forgetting that C-Bills aren't just for leveling mechs. We made a decision in regards to where we spend our C-Bills, be it on mech buffs (modules), equipment, or mechs themselves. PGI has decided that for those of us who bought a lot of modules, we get GSP for them, which can only be used for mech buffs. While the conversion rate may be fair for people who didn't buy a lot of modules (because in the old system, you didn't need to buy modules for every mech - you could swap them around), it's not fair to people who begrudgingly threw away their C-Bills for convenience factor alone. Now all of the C-Bills they spent on convenience are locked away as GSP, and a lot of these players say they are getting more GSP than they'll ever need, so it's effectively wasted.

This pretty much sum its up. I purchased modules based on how the game was at the time, now that PGI has changed its game i want my cbills back so i can again choose how i spend them.

[Revis Volek]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 April 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

And this, is where you are wrong.

A mech without Modules was never fully mastered. The Modules were the end game OF said mastery.

No, your mech was MASTERED before you had to put a single module in it via the original skill tree PGI even told me so when i got dat shiny gold star Bis.


And to think that i would shut myself off to the massive amount of mechs in this game because I CHOOSE not to take full advantage of module swapping was dumb on PGI;s part. If they would have just locked modules into mechs from the get go then i would have never been mislead into thinking that spending my money on more mechs was a better use of cbills then finishing Ghost Mastery on them.

But i am curious about this, i should get do PTS. I am more then likely going to be super "mech rich" as i own 180 mechs with about 93% of them being at master via the skill tree. But i only own enough modules to equip maybe a dozen mechs fully and maybe 10 more with random weapons modules only. But via my mechs status and the modules i have I think i will technically have MORE then i need to get where i currently am but will be space poor per usual.

Edited by Revis Volek, 26 April 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Revis Volek, on 26 April 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

No, your mech was MASTERED before you had to put a single module in it via the original skill tree PGI even told me so when i got dat shiny gold star Bis.

Keep telling yourself that...but what was the point of that gold star...and what did PGI constantly point to as the skill tree end game? MODULES bro. And as with the last PTS on it, one could easily achieve their "un moduled" levels of mastery in the previous iteration, with MASSIVE cbill reimbusement for the Modules.

Certain people pitched a fit over it. Wasn't good enough. If they didn't get the skill points to get to the same level of mastery as fully moduled mechs, then RIOT!!!!!

So PGIsaid fine... now you get enough to do that... but we ain't giving you enough free cbills to buy every mech and engine again in the process if we are giving you freebie skill points for the modules you did (or didnt) buy.

And now people still *****.

Why?

Because people want all the skill points AND the Moneys too. And that, is bullcrap. Sorry, not one damn ounce of sympathy from me to ANYONE feeling they are getting jipped this time....

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 April 2017 - 08:38 PM.

[RAM]

Prosperity Park, on 26 April 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

You did not buy them as if they were trade bonds. You did not buy modules for the sake of using them as a C-Bill reservoir for later liquidation. You did not buy them for the sake of laundering Cbills and refusing to equip them on your Mechs.

Actually, yes I did. Anything that is sold at 50% off CBills is the best place to store your money.

IGP penalized CBills but they never touched purchased equipment...


RAM
ELH

[dario03]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 April 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Keep telling yourself that...but what was the point of that gold star...and what did PGI constantly point to as the skill tree end game? MODULES bro. And as with the last PTS on it, one could easily achieve their "un moduled" levels of mastery in the previous iteration, with MASSIVE cbill reimbusement for the Modules.

Certain people pitched a fit over it. Wasn't good enough. If they didn't get the skill points to get to the same level of mastery as fully moduled mechs, then RIOT!!!!!

So PGIsaid fine... now you get enough to do that... but we ain't giving you enough free cbills to buy every mech and engine again in the process if we are giving you freebie skill points for the modules you did (or didnt) buy.

And now people still *****.

Why?

Because people want all the skill points AND the Moneys too. And that, is bullcrap. Sorry, not one damn ounce of sympathy from me to ANYONE feeling they are getting jipped this time....

Because they are different groups of people....

In the old system the "cheapskates" got "screwed".
In the new system the non-cheapskates get screwed.

Edited by dario03, 26 April 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

dario03, on 26 April 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Because they are different groups of people....

In the old system the "cheapskates" got "screwed".
In the new system the non-cheapskates get screwed.

No, in the new system the cheapskates get tons and the non-cheapskates get so much refunded it feels like they're getting cheated somehow because they're getting more than they could ever use.

The problem is PGI is being too generous so now people want everything from both options.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Prosperity Park, on 26 April 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

I don't think anyone here is that stupid. So, please, drop the act and stop complaining. I know you are not that dumb, I have faith in you.

This is exactly how I feel about your White Knighting for the dumpster fire that is the new Skill Maze!!!!! I do NOT care about the "refund" which is the very absolute utterly LEAST important part of how horrifically the Skill Maze is going to destroy the already complete dogs hit "Balance" that we currently have. Whinging like idiots either for or against it is the total failure of any understanding about how fundamentally the game is about to be wrecked... I will put up with almost anything for my love of Battletech but this might be too much for even me.

[dario03]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

No, in the new system the cheapskates get tons and the non-cheapskates get so much refunded it feels like they're getting cheated somehow because they're getting more than they could ever use.

The problem is PGI is being too generous so now people want everything from both options.

The whole "more than they could ever use" is the screwed part. Especially since it is a totally different more limited currency. So compared to the old system and compared to the "cheapskates" the non-cheapskates are getting screwed.

Modules were bought for cbills under a different system. That system is now gone, thus refunds should be in cbills.

Edited by dario03, 26 April 2017 - 10:33 PM.

[Vxheous]

MischiefSC, on 26 April 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

No, in the new system the cheapskates get tons and the non-cheapskates get so much refunded it feels like they're getting cheated somehow because they're getting more than they could ever use.

The problem is PGI is being too generous so now people want everything from both options.

I see how on the surface, the idea of GSP seems like amazing compensation, in that it's C-bill + GXP rolled into one (and a generous conversion ratio). Thing is, because every mastered mech already gets 91 standard SP to assign, I'm sitting on a pool of GSP currency that is basically useless. Compared to a mech rich, module poor account, who has spent the same amount of c-bills as I have up to this point, I become far behind. I have basically converted c-bills into GSP that I can't use, while the mech rich/module poor account has basically converted c-bills into 100 mechs more than my acocunt THAT ARE STILL FULLY MASTERED. Since they chose to use their c-bills to buy mechs, they lose nothing, especially since PGI is giving us 91pt/mastered mech. Meanwhile, because I bought 1.3 billion c-bills worth of modules, instead of those 100 mechs, I get a very generious conversion to a currency that I don't actually need for anything. Giving me back the c-bills used to buy those modules is basically allowing me to re-make my decision into buying those 100 mechs instead of modules (and technically I would still come out less because those 100 mechs would be 0/91 basic)

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 26 April 2017 - 11:08 PM.

[Gusevich]

I get the point, and i'm kinda feeling the same... BUT you have invested a shitload of money into a F2P game that is being developed by a (********) company without any clue neither about developement nor how their own game is being played.

Just sayin'.