257 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 April 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

So I guess you are never going to respec and change around skills based on the Meta? Good to know.

I'm going to be following this mostly closely to see how many of the people who sold off before the Patch are then whining 6 months later (or sooner, maybe much sooner) that they don't have the Skill Points needed.

You may be very disappointed at the lack of whining after realizing just how much the boatloads of GXP makes all those GSP redundant.

[the sixth tier]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 April 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

oh look another fake spam acct. How original.

it's just my normal account, bishop steiner. IF that's your real name, that is!

[Bishop Steiner]

the sixth tier, on 26 April 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

it's just my normal account, bishop steiner. IF that's your real name, that is!

Ah so someone who's been here all of 11 days is that read in on things. Got it.

Dakota1000, on 26 April 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

You may be very disappointed at the lack of whining after realizing just how much the boatloads of GXP makes all those GSP redundant.

I seriously doubt it. But time will tell. Actually, I'm getting more than fair compensation for my time and expenses, so no, I won't be disappointed either way.

I wasn't buying Modules as saving bonds to keep for future gundam purchases after all... I bought them to *gasp* increase the efficacy of my existing gundams. Crazy thought, right?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 April 2017 - 09:16 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 April 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Do kindly elucidate for us, the uneducated and unwashed?

To the best of my comprehension, Modules were bonuses, that one had the side benefit of being able to swap from chassis to chassis. Skill Tree is bonuses, that while technically not swappable, are being compensated with enough to fully skill up each chassis twice, on average?

And this was of course, on top of the Basic Skill Tree, which we could not swap, or customize, before.... and which was NOT actually mastered, without using appropriate modules?

So previously, 75% of your bonuses were non transferable, whereas now, you can, if desired, completely remap your skill tree bonuses to your hearts content, and with enough "bonus" points in reserve to swap around however one feels the need to chase the meta of the month?

I explaine dit twice in my previous posts, so read that again, if you still have questions why they are not the same please ask the specific things you don't understand.

remember when PGI spoke about possible one shot modules? Thats basically what we get when they get converted. But our current modules are infinite shot modules.

So the real question s, who would bought a one shot module at the current prices on Live server? porbably no one. And this is why the refund stinks to many because we suddenly get a return value for the money once spent beeing a fraction of what it was.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 April 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Cato Zilks]

Prosperity Park, on 26 April 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

You bought modules to improve mech performance. This includes sensor upgrades, weapon mods, etc.


You did not buy them as if they were trade bonds. You did not buy modules for the sake of using them as a C-Bill reservoir for later liquidation. You did not buy them for the sake of laundering Cbills and refusing to equip them on your Mechs.

Face it, if you bought modules, it is because you wanted to spend your Cbills on weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. If you didn't want these things, you would not have bought those modules.

In exchange for your modules, you are getting skill points that act as weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. You are exchanging upgrades for upgrades.

If you are complaining about this, then you have to openly admit that you bought modules for the sole sake of selling them back later, and *not* to equip them on your Mech to improve performance.

I don't think anyone here is that stupid. So, please, drop the act and stop complaining. I know you are not that dumb, I have faith in you.

So after the initial promise of C-Bill refunds I did just that. I have focused on just buying modules because I want to have a lot of cbills to tinker with mechs post skill tree release. I doubled down on this after the new tech was announced, because again I am going to need cbills. Dumping cash into modules improves my current mechs and gives me more money to buy light fusion engines in the future (of which I will be buying a large quantity). And I did all this based on the promises the company made in writing.

You are just flat out in the wrong here.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 April 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

So I guess you are never going to respec and change around skills based on the Meta? Good to know.

I'm going to be following this mostly closely to see how many of the people who sold off before the Patch are then whining 6 months later (or sooner, maybe much sooner) that they don't have the Skill Points needed.

I don't follow the meta really, I have so much HXP on my mechs I can just pay for respecing via cbills instead. What I want is just a simple option of GSP or Cbills, or the option to sell GSP for cbills at 100% value. I don't mind the idea of GSP, it has it's place, I just want an option. If I had the option to say how much Cbills and how much GSP I got out of the change via selling GSP or just a slider when I logged in May 16th I would likely keep a chunk of GSP, but, mass majority would got to Cbills. It is just about giving us an option of which way we want our modules refunded, just a little bit more choice either by giving a slider and the ability to adjust that with selling GSP later, or just being able to go to your inventory and sell GSP for cbills.

And I flat out give a rat's *** about specing myself to run the meta of the month, I keep an eye on it so I know what to expect out there, but, **** running that boring ****. To me majority of meta builds are ******* boring as ****, I'll stick to my PXH-1b with 3xML, 2xMG, 1xPPC, XL285, 4xJJ, ECM, and have some ******* fun.

[Felbombling]

Dodger79, on 26 April 2017 - 09:06 AM, said:

You really cannot see why 50% refund is worse than 100% refund? Man, i would _really_ like doing business with you then...

I already get GSP for the current level my Mechs have, why would i need GSP for another 200+ Mechs i have to buy first? Especially when a full module-refund would include GXP, too? That's sth people seem to be missing when talking about module-refunds, they're just thinking CB.

Dakota1000, on 26 April 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

It is really surprising around here to see how many people prefer being ripped off. It doesn't make any sense that people would fight against the option to get a full refund when it only provides a benefit to them and otherwise harms nothing else.

Well, we WERE offered a 100% C-Bill return on our modules, but some very vocal people burnt that to the ground. Hey... maybe we can convince PGI to give us all a 100% C-Bill return on the modules AND the GSP points to go along with it. That would make the people with tons of modules happy, people with very few modules happy and everyone in-between happy. Unless, of course, they are done buying Mechs from here on out, in which case they'd b!tch and moan about the GSP provided and demand more C-Bills as compensation.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 26 April 2017 - 09:38 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 26 April 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

I don't follow the meta really, I have so much HXP on my mechs I can just pay for respecing via cbills instead. What I want is just a simple option of GSP or Cbills, or the option to sell GSP for cbills at 100% value. I don't mind the idea of GSP, it has it's place, I just want an option. If I had the option to say how much Cbills and how much GSP I got out of the change via selling GSP or just a slider when I logged in May 16th I would likely keep a chunk of GSP, but, mass majority would got to Cbills. It is just about giving us an option of which way we want our modules refunded, just a little bit more choice either by giving a slider and the ability to adjust that with selling GSP later, or just being able to go to your inventory and sell GSP for cbills.

And I flat out give a rat's *** about specing myself to run the meta of the month, I keep an eye on it so I know what to expect out there, but, **** running that boring ****. To me majority of meta builds are ******* boring as ****, I'll stick to my PXH-1b with 3xML, 2xMG, 1xPPC, XL285, 4xJJ, ECM, and have some ******* fun.

so what are you asking for then?

Seriously? Money for Gundams? Because any cbills spent on Modules were spent to make said Gundams more effective, yes? So what else is PGI supposed to reimburse?

StaggerCheck, on 26 April 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

in which case they'd b!tch and moan

Well, they'll do this regardless. And in some cases make a bunch of alt accts to ad "weight" to their b!tching and moaning, looking at the sudden influx of accounts made in the last week.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 26 April 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

You bought modules to improve mech performance. This includes sensor upgrades, weapon mods, etc.


You did not buy them as if they were trade bonds. You did not buy modules for the sake of using them as a C-Bill reservoir for later liquidation. You did not buy them for the sake of laundering Cbills and refusing to equip them on your Mechs.

Face it, if you bought modules, it is because you wanted to spend your Cbills on weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. If you didn't want these things, you would not have bought those modules.

In exchange for your modules, you are getting skill points that act as weapon mods, sensor upgrades, etc. You are exchanging upgrades for upgrades.

If you are complaining about this, then you have to openly admit that you bought modules for the sole sake of selling them back later, and *not* to equip them on your Mech to improve performance.

I don't think anyone here is that stupid. So, please, drop the act and stop complaining. I know you are not that dumb, I have faith in you.

Noone buys modules to sell them back. It never works that way.

However modules are not meant to be converted into a form that isn't sellable... like GSP.

There is a point where that conversion to GSP is equivalent to hoarding a crapton of GXP... it becomes pointless to have, and you can't really spend it all in one go like C-bills.

C-bills, whether you realize or not is what you'll need for mechs, engines, and certainly a boatload of the future tech. GSP CANNOT AND WILL NOT be useful to acquire that.

Full stop.

[Agent1190]

In the back of my mind, I kinda figured a full CBill refund would break the games economy...

You gotta have something to spend CBills on. I have over 100 mechs, I have probably 100 modules acquired thru events or purchased with CBills. I don't have any reason to spend CBills except to collect Mechs I have pretty much deemed "meh" and had no interest in. Getting a full refund is going to inflate my coffers and there i nothing I really want buy in game. Right now, I have 25M Cbills just sitting around, flitting them off on a Standard 265 engine (which I would use for one mech build, then change the build and park it in my inventory) or something here and there. I have millions more in my inventory in the form of engines and weapons that aren't currently equipped on my mechs.

This is the case for a lot of people.

If it were the "real world," and yes, I know it's a video game, but follow me, if there was a sudden influx of cash to the general populace, good and services would become more expensive as a result. PGI would have to inflate the cost of mechs and weapons to bring the cash surplus down to reasonable levels. This would NOT be new player/casual player friendly as their buying power would plummet. If they didn't do this, then nobody would have any reason to purchase Mechpacks - they would just wait out the 4 months and purchase the new mech for CBills en masse. That's real-world money lost for PGI.

By getting GXP, I can skill up those 100+ mechs a lot faster (if I even go that far). I'm actually fine with the new refund program.

Edited by Agent1190, 26 April 2017 - 09:55 AM.

[Agent1190]

Cato Zilks, on 26 April 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

So after the initial promise of C-Bill refunds I did just that. I have focused on just buying modules because I want to have a lot of cbills to tinker with mechs post skill tree release. I doubled down on this after the new tech was announced, because again I am going to need cbills.

You'll be fine if you bought all your modules after Dec 3rd (which is when they broke ground on the Skill Tree) and if you bought more modules when they introduced new tech (because that happened after Dec 3rd).

[Deathlike]

Agent1190, on 26 April 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

In the back of my mind, I kinda figured a full CBill refund would break the games economy...

You gotta have something to spend CBills on. I have over 100 mechs, I have probably 100 modules acquired thru events or purchased with CBills. I don't have any reason to spend CBills except to collect Mechs I have pretty much deemed "meh" and had no interest in. Getting a full refund is going to inflate my coffers and there i nothing I really want buy in game. Right now, I have 25M Cbills just sitting around, flitting them off on a Standard 265 engine (which I would use for one mech build, then change the build and park it in my inventory) or something here and there. I have millions more in my inventory in the form of engines and weapons that aren't currently equipped on my mechs.

This is the case for a lot of people.

If it were the "real world," and yes, I know it's a video game, but follow me, if there was a sudden influx of cash to the general populace, good and services would become more expensive as a result. PGI would have to inflate the cost of mechs and weapons to bring the cash surplus down to reasonable levels. This would NOT be new player/casual player friendly as their buying power would plummet. If they didn't do this, then nobody would have any reason to purchase Mechpacks - they would just wait out the 4 months and purchase the new mech for CBills en masse. That's real-world money lost for PGI.

By getting GXP, I can skill up those 100+ mechs a lot faster (if I even go that far). I'm actually fine with the new refund program.

You're assuming that there's an "economy" in this game.

Path of Exile has an economy.

This game does not. You are not even sell or trading anything. Only YOU are buying/selling against yourself.

[Tarogato]

I put C-Bills into modules. If modules are going the way of the dodo, then I should get those C-Bills back. Simple as that.

If the new skill tree requires me to put my refunded C-Bills back into it, that's fine. Whatever. So long as the costs are fair. But even then it's my choice to put those C-Bills back in or not. I should have the option to do what I want with them. PGI is taking that option away, and instead giving us a bunch of "GSP" which can only be used to level mechs, and a lot more than we'll need for a long long time.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Tarogato, on 26 April 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

I put C-Bills into modules. If modules are going the way of the dodo, then I should get those C-Bills back. Simple as that.

If the new skill tree requires me to put my refunded C-Bills back into it, that's fine. Whatever. So long as the costs are fair. But even then it's my choice to put those C-Bills back in or not. I should have the option to do what I want with them. PGI is taking that option away, and instead giving us a bunch of "GSP" which can only be used to level mechs, and a lot more than we'll need for a long long time.

I agree with you on 90% of things but not here.

When you bought the seismic sensor for 6m c-bills, you bought it for the impact it could have on a mech. You understood when you did that, it would only perform that function. If you decided you didn't need it anymore, or you desperately needed to liquidate for some reason, you could turn around and sell it at a depreciated rate of 3m.

Now, the seismic sensor is being recalled. PGI is giving you 6million worth of GSP related coupons that could also be used to buy seismic impacts via the node tree OR some other node related item, so in effect, you're getting a more flexible version of that purchase. You can still sell the module before the recall for $3mil in c-bills however.

--------------------------------
You bought a CD-player for $100 knowing it can only play CD's. You can sell it later for a depreciated rate of 50$ or keep using it as a CD-player in your car, house, backyard etc.

For some crazy reason, Sony decides they wanna retain you as a customer but know CD players are going the way of the dodo due to technology creep and recalls the CD-player because it's about to be unusable. They GIVE you $100 towards the cost of a $100 dollar Sony blue-tooth capable player instead of 100$ cash. Before the post-man comes to get the cd-player though, you can still craigslist it for $50.

Crazy analogy, but essentially the same thing.

In this closed, warped economy, the GSP still has extreme relative buying power and if you don't like it's form, you can still pre-empt the recall by selling (at an already known and understood loss) to get liquidity.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 26 April 2017 - 10:28 AM.

[Deathlike]

Lukoi Banacek, on 26 April 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

I agree with you on 90% of things but not here.

When you bought the seismic sensor for 6m c-bills, you bought it for the impact it could have on a mech. You understood when you did that, it would only perform that function. If you decided you didn't need it anymore, or you desperately needed to liquidate for some reason, you can turn around and sell it at a depreciated rate of 3m.

Now, the seismic sensor is being recalled. PGI is giving you 6million worth of GSP related coupons that could also be used to buy seismic impacts via the node tree OR some other node related item, so in effect, you're getting a more flexible version of that as a GSP. You can still sell the module before the recall for $3mil in c-bills however.

--------------------------------
You bought a CD-player for $100 knowing it can only play CD's. You can sell it later for a depreciated rate of 50$ or keep using it as a CD-player in your car, house, backyard etc.

For some crazy reason, Sony decides they wanna retain you as a customer but know CD players are going the way of the dodo due to technology creep and recalls the CD-player because it's about to be unusable. They GIVE you $100 towards the cost of a $100 dollar Sony blue-tooth capable player instead of 100$ cash. Before the post-man comes to get the cd-player though, you can still craigslist it for $50.

Crazy analogy, but essentially the same thing.

In this closed, warped economy, the GSP still has extreme relative buying power and if you don't like it's form, you can still pre-empt the recall by selling (at an already known and understood loss) to get liquidity.

It's not the same thing.

This is a digital commodity, so the value of it doesn't really change unless the market changes... but that assumes an economy of which does not exist in the first place.

Even while the Seismic Sensor was nerfed a number of times, it was still worth the purchasing cost then than it is now (still 6m in C-bills back when it was introduced, and still the same price now).

GSP does not buy you more mechs or engines or future equipment. They are literally not the same currency. Anyone trying to actually equate the two outside of "it'll cheapen the cost of acquiring skill points" is full of it (while even then, you'll have some HXP available for those mechs you run often).

C-bills will always be needed. GSP is another form of GXP, where having so much of it diminishes its value. You will almost ALWAYS spend C-bills for something of consequence. You won't always do that with GXP or GSP.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Deathlike, on 26 April 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

It's not the same thing.

This is a digital commodity, so the value of it doesn't really change unless the market changes... but that assumes an economy of which does not exist in the first place.

Even while the Seismic Sensor was nerfed a number of times, it was still worth the purchasing cost then than it is now (still 6m in C-bills back when it was introduced, and still the same price now).

GSP does not buy you more mechs or engines or future equipment. They are literally not the same currency. Anyone trying to actually equate the two outside of "it'll cheapen the cost of acquiring skill points" is full of it (while even then, you'll have some HXP available for those mechs you run often).

C-bills will always be needed. GSP is another form of GXP, where having so much of it diminishes its value. You will almost ALWAYS spend C-bills for something of consequence. You won't always do that with GXP or GSP.

Except you cannot trade in your seismic for 6m. Only 3million, so your entire point here is fundamentally flawed. Or, by your logic, you should get 3mil for the seismic (which as I noted above, you still can if c-bills are more important to you than GSP).

Translate all of this gibberish into man-hours invested and you'll see what I'm saying.

While you cannot buy tech/mechs with GSP, you do save on other forms of grind and at the end of the day, that's what this boils down to. And this is from someone that's getting 300 mechs worth of grind time back....do you think this game will last THAT long that I even buy 300 more mechs?

And I'd argue that you DON'T always spend c-bills on something of consequence or my main account with 520 million wouldn't be sitting on 520 million. This entire train of thought ignores the fact that PGI still needs some form of trickling c-bill sink to entice folks into purchasing things with MC and creating a massive c-bill windfall for people would be bad for them from their bottom line point of view.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 26 April 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Deathlike]

Lukoi Banacek, on 26 April 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Except you cannot trade in your seismic for 6m. Only 3million, so your entire point here is fundamentally flawed. Or, by your logic, you should get 3mil for the seismic (which as I noted above, you still can if c-bills are more important to you than GSP).

Translate all of this gibberish into man-hours invested and you'll see what I'm saying.

While you cannot buy tech/mechs with GSP, you do save on other forms of grind and at the end of the day, that's what this boils down to. And this is from someone that's getting 300 mechs worth of grind time back....do you think this game will last THAT long that I even buy 300 more mechs?

And I'd argue that you DON'T always spend c-bills on something of consequence or my main account with 520 million wouldn't be sitting on 520 million. This entire train of thought ignores the fact that PGI still needs some form of trickling c-bill sink to entice folks into purchasing things with MC and creating a massive c-bill windfall for people would be bad for them from their bottom line point of view.

The problem is that if I bought Seismic Sensor like right now, I'd get 100% back on it in C-bills when patch day comes. There's nothing to tell me how many modules that do/don't apply for the C-bill refund and even that PTS image is almost a week old. Pretty much, you would have to have kept track or done accounting... which is not what most people are doing.

I already spent like 100m in C-bills within the last week... it does NOT take much to have C-bills being spent in this game.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Shevek Anarres, on 26 April 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

Go re-read the ToS. It's not fraud in the slightest and you own nothing here, never did. You're paying to rent use and they have always held the right to change the rules, as has any digital medium for gaming. I do see why you're suffering angst, because it does attack one's fundamental sense of fairness, that I agree with. But, hyperbole is just a waste of air that clouds the issues at hand really.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Deathlike, on 26 April 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

The problem is that if I bought Seismic Sensor like right now, I'd get 100% back on it in C-bills when patch day comes. There's nothing to tell me how many modules that do/don't apply for the C-bill refund and even that PTS image is almost a week old. Pretty much, you would have to have kept track or done accounting... which is not what most people are doing.

I already spent like 100m in C-bills within the last week... it does NOT take much to have C-bills being spent in this game.

I agree and to sate folks like you, PGI agreed to move the trigger date back to sometime in December. But if your argument is that every single module ever purchased fairly deserves a 100% c-bill refund (which it clearly seems to be) I'd argue that your own logic breaks that argument.

You don't get 100% return on purchase price, and that they are doing so with even some of our module purchases is I think a fair thing. The debatable portion of that would indeed be, on which date is it fair to start reimbursing people 50% vice 100%. Right now the 100% reflected on PTS is February. If you bought modules between the date they intend to go back to in December, those will be added in (to the detriment of your GSP of course). But nothing before the trigger date deserves 100% refund frankly.

[VanillaG]

As others have said, the reason the GSP for modules feels bad is the modules were used to increase the performance of a fully mastered mech. Since my fully mastered mech is getting 91 SP there is no need for a large amount of GSP to round out a mech. Sure I will use some to tweak the tree after spending my free 91 SP but I cannot see myself spending 6578 GSP (enough for 72 mechs) in a reasonable time frame on my existing mechs. Especially when I will be sitting on 460K of GXP.

If PGI had refunded less than 91 SP for fully mastered mechs the GSP would feel more useful. As it stands right now, the majority of my GSP can only be used on new mechs that I need to purchase.