32 replies to this topic

[fat4eyes]

vandalhooch, on 27 April 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

2 - I think the new system has the potential to be a much more useful tool in the near-constant balancing act that must go on in a game like this. Instead of a PGI developer, who has far less play time than most players, deciding what bonuses to apply to under-performers, the developer can just allow the mech to have 96 or 101 nodes. Let the players decide how best to give the mech more utility.

Exactly this. The one surprising thing about the skill tree is that people don't agree on a 'best' build. Some people say defense, I say mobility. And others are focusing on weapon cooldowns and heatgen. And that's a good thing, because it will hopefully lead to there being no 'one true build' which is exactly what we have now in the current skill system.

In the current system everyone gets the exact same bonuses whether they need it or not. A sniping gauss mech gets heat and mobility bonuses as a brawler. A brawling assault gets the same bonuses as a skirmishing light. The new skill system allows you to choose which bonuses you want for your build, and even more than that allows us to choose bonuses WE DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE. Like armor, jumpjets and shot velocity. It gives so much more choice and customizability in a game THAT IS ALL ABOUT CUSTOMIZABILITY. We can quibble about the implementation but the addition of this much choice vastly outweighs the disadvantages of being locked into the 'one true build' of the current system.

Edited by fat4eyes, 27 April 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[vandalhooch]

oldradagast, on 27 April 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

Counterpoints:

1) While choice or the illusion of choice is nice, the skill maze as shown is TOO COMPLICATED with TOO MANY choices. It is a tangled web with no logic whatsoever to its layout, and each choice has so little effect. Look up "analysis paralysis" or the Paradox of Choice.

https://en.wikipedia...radox_of_Choice

In short, the skill maze is too big, too complicated, and utterly off-putting to players. I'm dreading logging into the game and having to click through that stupid mess dozens of times just to make my mechs playable. It's not fun - it's work, and basically another form of grind.

Different player types will react to the wide variety of choices in different ways. Explorers will feel liberated. There is a difference between "shopping" for life necessities and perusing choices for luxuries. Did you actually read the book? I'm not claiming that everyone will find the system a positive but just because you experience anxiety with it does not mean that everyone does. You are not a stand in for the "typical" player.

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2) Balancing mechs with more or less nodes is NOT balance. Compare an Atlas to a Kodiak. Without quirks, the Kodiak utterly destroys the Atlas. Leaving things that way, with no quirks or at least no major ones - means nobody will play the Atlas unless they want to die horribly. Adding more skill points available to the Atlas which they can eventually grind their way up to fixes nothing since the Atlas starts out horribly inferior and will stay that way for 95% of its career.

Exactly how did you calculate 95%? Just making up numbers doesn't really convince me that you know stuff you don't.

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Even after the Atlas player finally grinds out extra skill quirks to have more than the Kodiak player, the effects of each skill quirk are so small that the Atlas will STILL SUCK.

Since PGI will have different tree values for Clan and IS mechs from the start, they will be able to implement other customized skill tree values later. Think, tank trees, sniper trees, brawler trees, scout trees . . . etc.

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Go back and look at the rather staggering quirks many mechs have to remain remotely competitive in this game. Now, look at how small the skill bonuses are per skill node. You'd need a huge number of extra points to balance out the crappy mechs, and even then, you'll only achieve balance long AFTER the meta-mech has won nearly every confrontation for 90%+ of the time both mechs are played.

There you go making up numbers again. Just know that I work with numbers for a living and are therefore unimpressed by made up fantasy numbers.

You'll also note that in my response I said the new skill system has the potential to be used to balance things. I didn't say that it's current form is already balanced.

[MauttyKoray]

Ruar, on 27 April 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

There is a drastic difference between getting a raw, half rotten steak or getting a steak that is fully cooked instead of medium rare.

The web design is a raw steak instead of medium rare. If it goes live it's going to make people sick and drive them away. All they have to do is throw the steak back on the stove and send it out with a linear system. No need to delay, just admit it's going to be linear instead of web and release as planned.

The refund system is nice, it's a bit overdone but at least you can eat it. The web design is raw and needs some more cooking. Balance can happen later when they add more items to the menu and we come back to eat again.

They are almost there with this. If only they would listen to the hundreds of posts about the tree being too cluttered and poorly designed and admit they need to go linear.

Honestly? I don't want a min/max linear system. We already have that garbage now and it sucks. The ability to choose how to spec a mech with the web based tree while having to make sacrifices if I want to fully max certain aspects is the closest things to actual balance I've seen in this game since Clan release.

[Glaive-]

I agree with OP. I've been pretty bored with the game as of late, and I was really looking forward to fiddling with the new skill tree on my main mechs back when it was supposed to come out, but people managed to get it delayed
The new rendition looks even better than the previous version, and I honestly think that it will be an overall improvement to the game, despite all of the issues with it.

[PhoenixFire55]

Antares102, on 27 April 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

"Bad" skill tree > no skill tree

Following the same logic mass executions > no mass exectutions.
Just sayin ...

[I_AM_ZUUL]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 April 2017 - 12:49 AM, said:

Following the same logic mass executions > no mass exectutions.
Just sayin ...

Clearly logical thought is not the OP strong suit since he supports the current dumpster fire pet project of PGI called the Skill Maze.... I kinda wish they had just ruined the game with Energy Draw and made more Maps last year since it seems like they are hell bent on ruining the game with the Skill Maze anyways. Really... PGI needs to just stop trying, they suck so badly at it. InfoWars, Energy Draw, Escort, Incursion, 3 versions of the Skill Maze... we could have had a whole bunch more Maps instead & even possibly different sets of Spawn Points in each Map to make the tactical flow of the battles play out differently, thereby further adding diversity to the already existing Maps we do have.

[BurningDesire]

i feel that large parts of the skill tree are redundant. Things like Armor structure, agility, and mech operations are something you will take on ALL mech regardless. Its not something that you will change up and its pointless being there.
They would be better to just make it one node or just buff all the mechs to the desired levels.

As the game stands now you will run armor structure at max cause nobody in a medium or light mech likes to get one shot. You will run armor structure in a heavy and assault because you are the main focal points of fire.

You will run Agility in all classes because movement is life. You wont run an Assault with out it because you will be light fodder and you will use it in a light because rolling damage is how you survive.

Mech operations will be used in full too due to the fact all weapons make heat, bar gauss of course. Seldom do you see a gauss only build.

So really you could remove 3 out of the 7 trees and combine those fringe skills to the other trees, make the whole setup easier to use, maybe reduce the amount of skill points to use. But as it stands out of the 91 skill points you are using around 80-84 skill points just to make your mech viable

[I_AM_ZUUL]

BurningDesire, on 28 April 2017 - 02:50 AM, said:

i feel that large parts of the skill tree are redundant. Things like Armor structure, agility, and mech operations are something you will take on ALL mech regardless. Its not something that you will change up and its pointless being there.
They would be better to just make it one node or just buff all the mechs to the desired levels.

As the game stands now you will run armor structure at max cause nobody in a medium or light mech likes to get one shot. You will run armor structure in a heavy and assault because you are the main focal points of fire.

You will run Agility in all classes because movement is life. You wont run an Assault with out it because you will be light fodder and you will use it in a light because rolling damage is how you survive.

Mech operations will be used in full too due to the fact all weapons make heat, bar gauss of course. Seldom do you see a gauss only build.

So really you could remove 3 out of the 7 trees and combine those fringe skills to the other trees, make the whole setup easier to use, maybe reduce the amount of skill points to use. But as it stands out of the 91 skill points you are using around 80-84 skill points just to make your mech viable

Basically... just keep the current Basic/Elite/Master system & add a layer past that for "customization." Super simple but since we are dealing with PGI, they only know how to ruin what they previously did a half assed job at.

[BurningDesire]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 28 April 2017 - 02:58 AM, said:

Basically... just keep the current Basic/Elite/Master system & add a layer past that for "customization." Super simple but since we are dealing with PGI, they only know how to ruin what they previously did a half assed job at.

makes sense to me. I do kind of like the 3 mech system, it gets you into mechs you would otherwise not bother to use and some times you find mechs that just click for you. like my beloved cicada 3C which they are ****** the butt out of with this skill tree bloat.
But that will be a thing of the past and there will be mechs that will never find their true pilots, cause why level a crap mech when you dont have too

[Kotzi]

Yeah, no, changes for changes sake is bad. This skill tree crap is only a time and money sink for players. This is a shooter. I want the fight to be won by personal skill and tactical wits. Not by the best skillsynergy. You want me to grind? Make it enjoyable and not blatantely worse.

[drifter bob]

well at the end of the day I ideally would love to see no skill tree no new tree no old tree even playing field where your pilot skill is all you

Edited by drifter bob, 28 April 2017 - 04:07 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

BurningDesire, on 28 April 2017 - 02:50 AM, said:

i feel that large parts of the skill tree are redundant. Things like Armor structure, agility, and mech operations are something you will take on ALL mech regardless. Its not something that you will change up and its pointless being there.
They would be better to just make it one node or just buff all the mechs to the desired levels.

As the game stands now you will run armor structure at max cause nobody in a medium or light mech likes to get one shot. You will run armor structure in a heavy and assault because you are the main focal points of fire.

You will run Agility in all classes because movement is life. You wont run an Assault with out it because you will be light fodder and you will use it in a light because rolling damage is how you survive.

Mech operations will be used in full too due to the fact all weapons make heat, bar gauss of course. Seldom do you see a gauss only build.

So really you could remove 3 out of the 7 trees and combine those fringe skills to the other trees, make the whole setup easier to use, maybe reduce the amount of skill points to use. But as it stands out of the 91 skill points you are using around 80-84 skill points just to make your mech viable

That is only true in your opinion. if you take full armour, full agility, full operations that is ALL of your points gone, right there, and i absolutely dispute that is the best course of action for all mechs, or even most mechs.

If your mech has significant armour quirks, then the survival tree gives you more than it gives other mechs, making it more valuable. Same with weapon quirks. ECM mechs definitely need to take the ECM nodes in the sensor tree. MASC mechs have very little use for the agility tree.

I like it. You have to make significant sacrifices whatever route you take, there is a lot of choice. My only real issue (refund aside) is with the layout of the agility tree - i think the arm nodes need to be moved to the edges. Its too large an investment to get speed tweak imo. Oh, and UAC jam chance needs to be 2% per node if its going to be that deep in the tree.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 28 April 2017 - 08:30 AM.