53 replies to this topic

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Right, and its good at it too. I like to call those kinds of mechs "KDR 1.0 Builds". Because you're going to wreck someone's day, shut down, and have your head blown off by a second enemy. And if you got Caustic or Terra Mordor, you might not even get the "wreck someone's day" part.

I run this mech on terra therma, vitric forge, and caustic. I do 87 (currently, 84 after change) and can continuously reposition/find cover.

If people are okay with the skill tree, I have no problem with it. I will happily min/max the **** out of mechs and have a lot of fun. As much as I will have fun/be OP, I can take a step back and appreciate how badly the game will be broken by people like me.

I am not saying that Clan is OP or IS is OP. I am saying there will be individual mechs with very particular hardpoints (lasers) that will boat the **** out of them and now will have quirks that they did not have before. That will break the game.

My only real gripe with the skill tree is the refunds. I don't mind being OP. I hope everyone is cool with that because the game will literally be broken. I need to get back to work now.

Have fun. Discuss.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 27 April 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Right, and its good at it too. I like to call those kinds of mechs "KDR 1.0 Builds". Because you're going to wreck someone's day, shut down, and have your head blown off by a second enemy. And if you got Caustic or Terra Mordor, you might not even get the "wreck someone's day" part.

You are undervaluing the ability to just squeeze off a huge alpha that doesn't overheat you from 10 or under heat.

With one KDK5 build I could push my 400m range alpha up to about 100 damage for some 70% heat, but you aren't doing that during a brawl unless desperate, you use it to completely punish people who peep or when peeping targets, 2 builds with massive alphas like that can kill just about anything in the game in like 1.15 seconds with accuracy.

[VanillaG]

Telemachus Rheade, on 27 April 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Now I have -10% duration, which means that I have to expose myself 10% less to enemy fire, while at the same time gaining 13.6% more armor. So overally, I am now more survivable. The cool shots mean I can alpha 4 times before shutting down...

Your -10% duration comes out to 0.1 seconds of burn time. You are overvaluing that duration because I am not sure what you can do in 0.1 seconds to reduce 10% of incoming fire, especially PPFLD. The percents sound impressive but in actuality they are minor tweaks not game breaking tweaks.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

VanillaG, on 27 April 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Your -10% duration comes out to 0.1 seconds of burn time. You are overvaluing that duration because I am not sure what you can do in 0.1 seconds to reduce 10% of incoming fire, especially PPFLD. The percents sound impressive but in actuality they are minor tweaks not game breaking tweaks.

And I think you are underestimating the value of lower duration, however small.

----------------------------------------------------------

I couldn't resist, 1 more.

TBR SRM-A 6x4 and 4xSPL

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b37f4eaf0e7115

The quirks

http://imgur.com/1zZkmj6

Who asked for TBR quirks? I don't mind, I guess I'll take them.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 27 April 2017 - 12:05 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

The first time the skill tree was tested people complained that the skill tree would be non-beneficial. Now this time we have a thread stating it will be OP. Odd thing is the numbers look the same.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Telemachus Rheade, on 27 April 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

Who asked for TBR quirks? I don't mind, I guess I'll take them.

Thats the big takeaway here. Clan mechs had only the old skill tree for boosts while IS mechs had that plus quirks. Now the IS quirks are largely gone.

I kind of see why they did it. Who's going to spend massive skills to get +10% velocity on a PPC when the chassis comes with 50 already? Nobody. So nerf it to 20 and then buying 10 more means something.

But that doesnt mean it was a good idea.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

Clownwarlord, on 27 April 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

The first time the skill tree was tested people complained that the skill tree would be non-beneficial. Now this time we have a thread stating it will be OP. Odd thing is the numbers look the same.

I don't normally go out of my way to test out a developer's game, because I'd rather actually play the liver version of the game. I also don't normall post on the forums as you can clearly see from the amount of posts I have made. Last iteration of the skill tree I just read about it through other people's experience.

I do think that PGI is going out of it's way to mess up the game with an ill-conceived idea, so I actually downloaded the PTS for the first time for ANY game ever, and am pointing out that the skill tree is actually OP for mechs that don't need it.

Here is another example. The Oxide. Currently performing decently to very well. No one would say it is an underperformer.

The Build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1f83ddee636da5d

The Quirks

http://imgur.com/TlGp73I

That's not even me min/maxing, that's me pressing things that I think were important. That's a little too much no? Even though I like playing the Oxide

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 April 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Thats the big takeaway here. Clan mechs had only the old skill tree for boosts while IS mechs had that plus quirks. Now the IS quirks are largely gone.

I kind of see why they did it. Who's going to spend massive skills to get +10% velocity on a PPC when the chassis comes with 50 already? Nobody. So nerf it to 20 and then buying 10 more means something.

But that doesnt mean it was a good idea.

I think it has more to do with the pending release of civil war tech. They are rolling back IS quirks. Then they will baseline a few months after civil war release. And maybe 6 months from now they'll roll out a quirk pass for mechs under performing in the new system and tech.

[VanillaG]

Telemachus Rheade, on 27 April 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

And I think you are underestimating the value of lower duration, however small.

No, you are applying the wrong metric to it. Duration increases the precision of the weapon allowing you to keep weapon on a single component better and has little to do with decreasing the amount of damage you can mitigate. Mobility is the skill that helps you mitigate damage by either making torso twisting better or increasing your ability to poke with accel and decel quirks.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

ScrapIron Prime, on 27 April 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Thats the big takeaway here. Clan mechs had only the old skill tree for boosts while IS mechs had that plus quirks. Now the IS quirks are largely gone.

That is NOT the point. The point is that mechs that had fewer/no quirks ON BOTH SIDES, CLAN AND IS, because their geometry, hardpoint number/location, and weight didn't justify having quirks in the first place are now going to be more powerful while retaining the same geometry, hardpoint number/location, and weight.

I know people like to go on about how Clan and IS are unbalanced, but I think the game is currently more balanced, partricularly on the IS side when you take into account the weight for CW. I am not trying to start a clan vs. IS flame war.

I am pointing out that the mechs that didn't have quirks (THERE ARE THOSE ON THE IS SIDE TOO LIKE THE STALKERS) will now have an advantage that no one asked for.

I have no problems with this. I have 140ish mechs that I can pick from and I basically play min/maxed meta builds and laugh at those people that bring lurms or lore builds. However, the skill tree now adds another layer of optimization for me, that people who are new, play sub-optiomal builds, or are just plain bad at aiming will not get the same benefit from.

VanillaG, on 27 April 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

No, you are applying the wrong metric to it. Duration increases the precision of the weapon allowing you to keep weapon on a single component better and has little to do with decreasing the amount of damage you can mitigate. Mobility is the skill that helps you mitigate damage by either making torso twisting better or increasing your ability to poke with accel and decel quirks.

I think you don't understand that while duration does help with the precision of the weapon it also means that I can start turning away and twist/backing off into cover a lot sooner too.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 27 April 2017 - 12:40 PM.

[Deathticle-ThatsNoMoon]

I think I see what is happening here. Credit where credit is due I guess, but I expect this claim of mad skills augmented by ill thought out quirk passes will just be noise. I like the ability to quirk the whole garage to my liking and play-style. Will some rise to the top? Yeah. Is it you? Is it me?

****EDIT***
it surely isn't me brother

Edited by trevalion, 27 April 2017 - 12:45 PM.

[LordNothing]

the upgrade depth of certain things needs to come with a curve of diminishing returns. consider hypothetically a 25% increase in something (like ballistic velocity) with 5 levels of depth at 5% per level. going all the way to level 5 is the preffered option over taking 2 or 3 things to levels 2 or 3. if instead the upgrade levels are 7%, 6%, 5%, 4% and 3%, then going part way on multiple traits gives you more overall buffage than stacking all on one thing.

in this case boating will still be a viable strategy, for example the tryhard adversion to scatter weapons will continue to keep them boating lasers and ppfld weapons and the general aversion to all things missile. you will see more mixed ballistic'n'laser builds over pure laser hole punchers they tend to use these days just to give them that little bit extra. this will give the ppc and gauss a bit more legs, but at least its a mixed build by definition and not boring.

[VanillaG]

Telemachus Rheade, on 27 April 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

I think you don't understand that while duration does help with the precision of the weapon it also means that I can start turning away and twist/backing off into cover a lot sooner too.

Your a lot sooner is 0.1 seconds. Don't get me wrong, less duration is better but the skill tree is not turning your builds into some overpowered reaper of mech-souls anymore than the current skill tree and modules. If you are not careful your 0.1 second advantage to start twisting or backing off into cover may be moot if you don't have the necessary mobility quirks to take advantage of that added time.

[Jackal Noble]

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

LordNothing, on 27 April 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

the upgrade depth of certain things needs to come with a curve of diminishing returns. consider hypothetically a 25% increase in something (like ballistic velocity) with 5 levels of depth at 5% per level. going all the way to level 5 is the preffered option over taking 2 or 3 things to levels 2 or 3. if instead the upgrade levels are 7%, 6%, 5%, 4% and 3%, then going part way on multiple traits gives you more overall buffage than stacking all on one thing.

If anything it should go backwards. You start with a 3% buff with the first node, and then only if you actually spend fully into that fifth node will you get the last full 7% buff. Investing heavily should reward you.

All I can say is, this skill tree is all kinds of ****-ed and it does nothing positive to change balance, boating, skill tradeoffs, or clan/is balance. It basically makes mechs that have nicely shaped bodies, high mounted hardpoints, and lots of hardpoints better, on both clan and IS.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 27 April 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

right click, copy image, past in mwo text box. done.

Edited by JackalBeast, 27 April 2017 - 01:01 PM.

[Deathticle-ThatsNoMoon]

Exactly, and the frankly confusing map of dependencies between nodes is the graph that is being optimized. Quantitatively there are optimized maps of nodes for each chassis + native quirk combination, but the total domain is huge, and accounts for a big range of personal play-style. Someone drum up an excel spreadsheet quick!

Nerds

[LordNothing]

Telemachus Rheade, on 27 April 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

If anything it should go backwards. You start with a 3% buff with the first node, and then only if you actually spend fully into that fifth node will you get the last full 7% buff. Investing heavily should reward you.

of course then the whole point of diminishing returns goes out the window. boating becomes the thing to do and mixed builds always run as a loss. you want an investment, buy an absurd number of engines.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 April 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

I think in general in a game like this, the fact the base damage rates are so naturally viable along with the very set amount of life a mech has in any given game, give aspects of survive-ability much higher priority, up to a certain point. If your mech is naturally very mobile and tough but has only minimal access to weaponry, boosting that weaponry in any capacity available will make a much larger difference than to a slow mech smothered in guns for example.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

JackalBeast, on 27 April 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

right click, copy image, past in mwo text box. done.

Ahhhh cool thanks man, I never figured that out!