187 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.

[MechaBattler]

Someone should do an angry clamman skit on this.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

No, the car dealer isn't offering you even half the price of what you first paid. The car dealer is inventing his own currency and paying you back in car dealer dollars.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 26 April 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Telemachus Rheade, on 26 April 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

No, the car dealer isn't offering you even half the price of what you first paid. The car dealer is inventing his own currency and paying you back in car dealer dollars.

And taking out a spark plug or two and maybe a piston and telling you to keep driving it for awhile until they understand just how it fits into the new baseline of performance that they think all cars should have.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

So my car is like ten years old but still in good condition, I thought it would be nice if I could trade it in on a new one but the dealer is only offering half the original price.

Could some of you come along and persuade the dealer to offer the full original price as a trade in please? Because some of you are great at justifying why used goods are still worth as much as they were when new and I really want a shiny new, even better than before, car.

Actually if this is the analogy you want:
PGI is repossessing my 'car', even though I paid all my bills, I have no choice in the matter. instead of offering to pay for my 'car', they are giving me a lifetime supply of air fresheners.

Of course, I could prevent this seizure of my car by selling my 'car' to them for half the value of the 'car'.

That I do believe is called... coercion.

Edited by Jaybles, 26 April 2017 - 11:18 AM.

[Mole]

Jaybles, on 26 April 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

Actually if this is the analogy you want:
PGI is repossessing my 'car', I have no choice in the matter. instead of offering to pay for my 'car', they are giving me a lifetime supply of air fresheners.

Of course, I could prevent this seizure of my car by selling my 'car' to them for half the value of the 'car'.

That I do believe is called... coercion.

OP's analogy was dumb. This is a better one.

EDIT: **** it, I want to point out the flaw in OP's logic anyway. Cars depreciate in value as they age because with age comes wear and tear. Digital goods do not depreciate in value as they are not subject to wear and tear. A module bought today that is worth 6,000,000 CBills will still be just as operational and pristine in every way, shape, and form a thousand years from now if MWO were somehow still running that far into the future.

Edited by Mole, 26 April 2017 - 11:20 AM.

[Dogstar]

@Haters - You aren't losing out, you're actually getting back more than you originally paid in, just not in a way that lets you cash it in on new mechs, new engines, and the new weapons coming out soon.

[Shifty McSwift]

No analogy is going to be perfect as it is a pretty unique situation. It's not like you bought a car, it's more like you paid money/time at your own discretion to have access to a vehicle that can only run on the roads the devs have in place, a vehicle that is subject to change as often as a transformer at its own discretion, not only that but you agreed to this to gain access to the vehicle in the first place, whether you had paid money or not at that stage.

Mostly it seems people need to be more aware of what exactly they put money into.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

@Haters - You aren't losing out, you're actually getting back more than you originally paid in, just not in a way that lets you cash it in on new mechs, new engines, and the new weapons coming out soon.

You are delusional. PGI is taking 1.3 billion worth of equipment out of my inventory and replacing it with GSP that is useless.... because they are already giving me HSP to master my already mastered mechs in the new ST, not to mention the mounds of XP and GXP I have. I sure as hell am losing out, I'm losing a hell of a lot of time and effort I put into grinding those cbills. I'd be better off if they gave me green Christmas lights instead. At least I could put those on my mechs.

but again, please explain to me the game balance mechanic that is broken by me suddenly having a billion cbills? How does this affect game balance? Please just put forth an argument based on some rational that actually affects game balance.

[Dogstar]

Also, I notice that most of the people complaining about getting masses of GSP instead of c-bills always mention how they were going to spend that money on new mechs, new engines, and, crucially, new weapon tech.

PGI would have to be really insane to give away bazillions of c-bills right before a new expansion that will be a huge c-bill sink.

You got the advantage of a module all this time, you're getting back more than it cost (GSP costs c-bills _and_ XP), it's not fair if you also get the advantage of kitting out all your mechs with all the new weapons for free!

Oh and there's nothing stopping anyone getting a 50% refund whenever they want. That other 50% has been well spent, it's gone for good.

Edited by Dogstar, 26 April 2017 - 11:31 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

No analogy is going to be perfect as it is a pretty unique situation. It's not like you bought a car, it's more like you paid money/time at your own discretion to have access to a vehicle that can only run on the roads the devs have in place, a vehicle that is subject to change as often as a transformer at its own discretion, not only that but you agreed to this to gain access to the vehicle in the first place, whether you had paid money or not at that stage.

Mostly it seems people need to be more aware of what exactly they put money into.

Which is why I won't be putting any more money into this game. I'm fully aware of the EULA I agreed to. No where in the EULA does it prohibit me from voicing my displeasure over changes or for asking for explanations as to why changes were made. And no PGI does not owe me an explanation. But in the interest of customer relations, I'm positively certain it would behoove them to explain their position and why they made the changes. What is the rational for taking purchased in game equipment out of player accounts and returning it as a made up currency different from that which was use to make the original purchases? Rationalize it for me? How does having those cbills affect game balance?

[Mole]

In case you haven't noticed, the forums are on fire today. This announcement has started a dumpster fire even larger than the one this change was made to put out. Every time there has been public riots over a PGI decision they change something to help remedy it. At least they have been lately. I am not going to be surprised if PGI changes the way refunds are going to work again. So go ahead, raise your stink. But me? I'm not considering this change final until it actually goes live.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

Jaybles, on 26 April 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Rationalize it for me? How does having those cbills affect game balance?

Sad thing is, having those cbills would have made me spend even more money on this game because I only have 20 something mechbays left and I would have bought MC to buy mechbays, and because I have issues with unpainted mechs, spent more MC on painting my mechs with patterns too.

Forced into using the GSP, I'm just going to try and burn all of them to unlock all 240 something nodes on my mechs, and say f it to spending any more real money on this game...(I'll probably still have some GSP/HXP left over after that :/)

Any future mechbay purchases will purely be with MC from events/CW rewards.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 26 April 2017 - 11:40 AM.

[Dogstar]

Put your money where your mouth is and cancel your preorders.

That's the real reason why PGI stopped the last iteration of the tree - because they were about to lose a ton of money and a slew of whales

If there's enough people cancel then PGI will change their plans again

[Click]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 April 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

people need to be more aware of what exactly they put money into.

BOOM


You my friend, have just summed up everything wrong with the gaming industry nowadays. Good job.

I actually really really hope PGI pushes this iteration of the PTS to live servers, vocal minorities whiners be damned.

[Alan Davion]

Click, on 26 April 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

I actually really really hope PGI pushes this iteration of the PTS to live servers, vocal minorities whiners be damned.

Then you better start running MWO recruitment drives to make up for the losses because these kinds of changes won't just drive off the minorities and whiners, they'll drive off a lot of other people as well.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Dogstar, on 26 April 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Put your money where your mouth is and cancel your preorders.

That's the real reason why PGI stopped the last iteration of the tree - because they were about to lose a ton of money and a slew of whales

If there's enough people cancel then PGI will change their plans again

I have already requested a refund for the roughneck, And I was going to pre order some clan heroes and civil war, but I've cancelled those plans as well.

[Dogstar]

@Alan - put your money where your mouth is and we'll see what happens won't we

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

I personally don't think PGIs balance/creative decisions should be based on "preorders" or "the customers putting their money where their mouth is", but rather based on thoughtful considerations on the fairness, utility, and balance of their features.

1. In terms of fairness, the fairest option available is to conduct refunds in the same currency that was first spent, and ensuring that mechs that are mastered start off mastered when the skill tree rolls out. PGI has only attained half of that goal.

2. In terms of utility, as it has been pointed out in other places too, PGI's new currency really has no real utility for those people who already own 100-200 mastered mechs and several hundred million-billions of cbills worth of modules because they will have more GSP and HSP than they could really spend on mastering mechs. So on the utility front, that's a fail.

3. In terms of balance, refunding cbills would have no real effect on the balance of the game, because this game does not include an in game auction house or anything real in game economy. In terms of clan vs. IS balance, refunds would have no effect. The skill tree effecting clan/IS balance is another issue entirely. In terms of currency refunds, the point of balance is moot.

So please explain to me how the currency refund proposal is actually a good idea in terms of both customer relations and game design?

EDIT: Also, I am sure fairness, balance, and utility aren't the only real game design standards, and others could be accounted for too, but I am unable to justify the refund proposal in any way as a thoughtfully considered proposal.

Edit 2: I keep thinking PGI will get their **** together at some point, but they seem to go out of their way to screw things up. Within one week they managed to implement an event that was ridiculous, a game mode that seems terribly designed, and a proposed refund for the skill tree that is just stupid.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 26 April 2017 - 11:56 AM.

[Click]

Alan Davion, on 26 April 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Then you better start running MWO recruitment drives to make up for the losses because these kinds of changes won't just drive off the minorities and whiners, they'll drive off a lot of other people as well.

No they won't, stop being so dramatic. It won't be as bad as y'all naysayers like to make everyone think, you know why? Because the skill tree is a WIP. PGI will continue to improve on it and people will adapt. You'll adapt as well if you stick around. If you don't, have fun in some other game, there are like a bajillion of em. If you spent like $500+ on this, well you really shouldn't have, sucks to be you.

Edited by Click, 26 April 2017 - 11:53 AM.