19 replies to this topic

[Ruar]

Decided to test out my Roughneck after seeing a thread about testing assaults. I focused on mobility because I know how they feel with no mobility skills. I also want speed tweak because I prefer a more mobile mech in general.

Went for 60% radar dep because 1 second isn't that bad of a compromise for the points spent.

At first I maxed out survival but then I did a few tests with hitting key weapon nodes and using the leftover points in survival.

What I found out was the weapon nodes don't really matter. 5% missile spread for two SRM4s was negligible. 10% LBX spread wasn't worth having since I was going to be up close anyway. If I was going to use this build on live it would be the AC10 even if I don't do as well with it because the LB is really bad without quirks boosting the spread to 20-30% or so.

Cooldown and range were negligible as well.

My Rougneck builds are an AC10/LB10, couple of missile racks for in close work, and then maybe a laser or two because ammunition runs out. I focus on getting in close and using the missile racks to finish people off. The weapon tree just doesn't have enough return to justify putting any points into it.

I have a sniping/skirmishing ENF build with three large lasers that also had the same issue with the weapon tree. Laser duration at 15% is worth it, but the rest is negligible and not worth taking. I'm better off focusing on other areas rather than wading through missile spread and velocity to max out my sniper.

In the end I think we'll see most people are going to ignore the weapon tree and spend points elsewhere. In the end we'll all pretty much look the same just like now with very little actual customization happening. The web design just doesn't work right and needs to be scrapped for a linear tree that lets players actually focus on what they want the most.

[Mycroft000]

If you scroll through the feedback I started a thread promoting the elimination of the entire Firepower Tree.

[Ruar]

mycroft000, on 27 April 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

If you scroll through the feedback I started a thread promoting the elimination of the entire Firepower Tree.

Yep, and I said on that thread that I wouldn't eliminate it because some people will want to build with it. There are going to be terribad assault LRM boats that are maxing out every bit of LRM related nodes and ignoring everything else that an assault mech should be. They should feel free to customize in such a horrible way.

I don't want to take people's choices away. That's what pisses me off about the web design to begin with because it takes our choices away and forces us to use the choices the devs say we have to use.

I want freedom of choice, even if I disagree with some of the choices that will be made.

[Mycroft000]

Here's the critical thing.

Freedom of choice will lead to solving the skill tree.

Force us to choose by limiting how many of the extremely desirable options we have access to, and that will cause us to become creative.

[Ruar]

mycroft000, on 27 April 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Here's the critical thing.

Freedom of choice will lead to solving the skill tree.

Force us to choose by limiting how many of the extremely desirable options we have access to, and that will cause us to become creative.

How creative can you really be when you are forced to go down path Y picking up skill A,B,C or going down path X picking up skill A, B, D?

I hate this web, it actually stifles creativity because there are only certain paths you can take. The only alternative is not taking that path and instead picking a different, predefined path. There's no true creativity, it's just picking the path of least painfulness.

[Mycroft000]

Exactly my point, this web skill design does nothing to promote real meaningful choices.

"Want Radar Dep? Here's a whole bunch of offensive and defensive sensor capabilities to go along with it."

"Want the most agility for the lowest cost? Spend 18 Nodes, no more, no less."

"Want Cool Run 5 and Heat Containment? Here, have Speed Retention, Hill Climb, Improved Gyros, Quick Ignition all for free."

It goes on and on, the web layout of the PTS tree doesn't make you choose anything, it just makes you find the optimal way to spend your points and stop when the benefits no longer outweigh the cost.

I own 12 Seismic Modules and 17 Radar Dep Modules. they're on the majority of the mechs I take into games frequently. I'm sure I'm not the only person who will consider those two sets of nodes as necessary for nearly everything. If I want those two "modules" to carry over on to my mechs under the new system, then I have a nearly mandatory 19 points that go into sensors on everything.

Where is the choice?

[Ruar]

The choice is that you don't have to take radar dep or seismic. You could take 100 seismic instead of 200. If I do play after this goes live then I can't see taking full radar dep, 60% (just one side) will be enough for how I play.

So there is choice, and the fact you have to think about the costs of these skills shows this change to a skill tree is working. Where we don't have choice is that we have to take target retention or sensor range in order to get to radar dep.

What if I want to spend those "extra" points on the auxiliary tree and some cool artillery explosions? Why am I being forced to spend points on target retention when I'm driving a mech that has no lock on weapons? Just so I can pay a higher cost for radar dep?

It's silly.

Just charge me what you want for radar dep and let me pick where I spend filler points. Forcing players through the web is frustrating and stifling.

[Mycroft000]

You might say that you won't take Radar Dep, but let's look at the gameplay side of the sensor tree now. Lets say I'm a LRM boat, and I take Target Decay 5, I'm spending 13 Nodes to get an extra 3.5 seconds of lock. That's a long time when you're trying to find cover.

I'm reasonably sure that Radar Dep is going to be one of the "solved" requirements of the high level players.

[Ruar]

mycroft000, on 27 April 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

You might say that you won't take Radar Dep, but let's look at the gameplay side of the sensor tree now. Lets say I'm a LRM boat, and I take Target Decay 5, I'm spending 13 Nodes to get an extra 3.5 seconds of lock. That's a long time when you're trying to find cover.

I'm reasonably sure that Radar Dep is going to be one of the "solved" requirements of the high level players.

60% of 3.5 = 1.4 seconds of lock after ducking behind cover. I can live with giving someone an extra second at the cost of 6-7? skill points instead of 17.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Double all of the values on the weapon nodes.

[Ruar]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 27 April 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Double all of the values on the weapon nodes.

Sure, and then you run the risk of making the weapon tree a must have instead of something that doesn't really help.

Which is one of the core problems with their web design, no room for simply adjustments to values of different nodes.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Ruar, on 27 April 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Sure, and then you run the risk of making the weapon tree a must have instead of something that doesn't really help.

Which is one of the core problems with their web design, no room for simply adjustments to values of different nodes.

I would actually contest that doubling it wouldn't make it all that overpowered. What stat, in particular, do you believe would be too powerful?

[Shadowspawn42]

Ruar, on 27 April 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Sure, and then you run the risk of making the weapon tree a must have instead of something that doesn't really help.

Which is one of the core problems with their web design, no room for simply adjustments to values of different nodes.

Wait...the current value isnt enough, but double is too much? Then 1.5x should be about perfect!

For me its about the loss of rate of fire. Comparing 22% cooldown to 10% cooldown is painful. I would love if they gave us 20% in the weapon tree....or even 15%. EACH of those percentage points matter to me.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Shadowspawn42, on 27 April 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

For me its about the loss of rate of fire.

Cheers to that.

Ever tried to using a single PPC? a 10% difference is the difference between decent DPS and sad DPS.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ruar, on 27 April 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

I don't want to take people's choices away.

You should want to, because it only makes the saturation of mechs and the balance therein all the more difficult/worse. The more flexible a strong mech is, the less likely I am to take any other mech and that's a huge problem.

Again, this comes down to the illusion of choice and the problem with complexity/freedom. The skill tree adds a lot of illusions of choice by giving you a lot of freedom, BUT that doesn't end up adding depth because it gives more freedom to min/max.

MW2/3 had the most open mechlabs (a lot of freedom and a lot of "false" choices), but what was the concern that originally led to things like hardpoints, engine caps, etc? The concern that things would boil down to these singular mechs that had the best hitboxes and everything and just mounted the best weapons and to hell with everything else. Freedom is much like complexity in that they don't directly correlate to depth (which is player agency, or the amount of meta choices a player has).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 April 2017 - 01:54 PM.

[Dracol]

mycroft000, on 27 April 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

You might say that you won't take Radar Dep, but let's look at the gameplay side of the sensor tree now. Lets say I'm a LRM boat, and I take Target Decay 5, I'm spending 13 Nodes to get an extra 3.5 seconds of lock. That's a long time when you're trying to find cover.

I'm reasonably sure that Radar Dep is going to be one of the "solved" requirements of the high level plapyers.

...um, didn't you hear, supposedly at the highest levels of play, LRMs are not regarded as viable weapons. If that is the case, why is radar derp needed?

[Chound]

mycroft000, on 27 April 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

Exactly my point, this web skill design does nothing to promote real meaningful choices.

"Want Radar Dep? Here's a whole bunch of offensive and defensive sensor capabilities to go along with it."

"Want the most agility for the lowest cost? Spend 18 Nodes, no more, no less."

"Want Cool Run 5 and Heat Containment? Here, have Speed Retention, Hill Climb, Improved Gyros, Quick Ignition all for free."

It goes on and on, the web layout of the PTS tree doesn't make you choose anything, it just makes you find the optimal way to spend your points and stop when the benefits no longer outweigh the cost.

I own 12 Seismic Modules and 17 Radar Dep Modules. they're on the majority of the mechs I take into games frequently. I'm sure I'm not the only person who will consider those two sets of nodes as necessary for nearly everything. If I want those two "modules" to carry over on to my mechs under the new system, then I have a nearly mandatory 19 points that go into sensors on everything.

Where is the choice?

not only tht but you need to use a node so youhave two consumable slots but you are restricted in what you can put in. you can't use your mech as a carrier with 4 UAVs or take more than 2 coolshots. For hot mechs that can be a big difference.

[Chound]

Dracol, on 27 April 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

...um, didn't you hear, supposedly at the highest levels of play, LRMs are not regarded as viable weapons. If that is the case, why is radar derp needed?

that is the current thinking but on the lower levels it is used quite a bit. you can remove the radar derp and use it for something else as you get better. Then again you might need the radar derp to get something else. The prevaling trend could change and LRMs become popular. Anyway it's good for forcing people to concentrate elsewhere. I used volleys of LRMs into the enemy so my team could move to a new position without worrying about sipers.. certain types of formations can be disrupted by missle fire. I don't get a lot of points but. I don't care. I do care about tis skill tree business

[Mycroft000]

Radar deprivation is not used strictly against LRMs. Are use it not only to avoid missiles but also to alert me when I have been spotted by an enemy, and ability that I think is even more valuable than avoiding missiles.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dracol, on 27 April 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

...um, didn't you hear, supposedly at the highest levels of play, LRMs are not regarded as viable weapons. If that is the case, why is radar derp needed?

Because radar derp gives you a clue when someone had you locked (and it ensures that they have trouble tracking your movements since there would be no decay. It isn't really a requirement though, it's useful but there are other pretty useful modules (Seismic, TIG, Adv Zoom, Cap Accel, and on occasion Sensor Range).