7 replies to this topic

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I meant to ask this on previous PTS because I couldn't figure it out myself.

Assume you have a mech which firepower is mostly limited by heat. Without taking account other nodes which you need to take before taking these two compared, which one is better, weapon heat node or cool run node?

Initially you might think obviously cool run is better because it's % is bigger, but I'm not so sure about that. Also does which is better depend on your mech?

[Y E O N N E]

Each weapon heat node is 1% heat reduction. Unless I can pick five of them up without really going out of my way down the Firepower tree, I'm not going to worry about them.

I think even more important in the heat consideration is the Jump Jet heat reduction. 'Mechs like the Mist Lynx, Viper, and Shadowcat, which all have many jets but few heat-sinks, benefit greatly when the jet heat can be cut by up to 30%, since jetting won't stop your cooling as much. That adds up very quickly in a pitched engagement.

[FupDup]

Well, consider that as you unlock enough of the Operations tree to max out Cool Run, you're going to wind up getting at least some of Heat Containment in the process. Also consider that both CR and HC benefit non-energy weapons if you're using them.

People boating energy or using a significant amount of energy should go for both because heat is always the primary bottleneck, but if it's an all-or-nothing choice I'd say go with Operations.

[ForceUser]

I'm pretty interested in the exact effects of each choice as well but I'm pretty bad at figuring out exactly how many % points the one is better than the other. Hopefully once the tree drops and the community collectively gets over itself there will be some enterprising members of said community willing to dive into the math for us. That's the primary reason I just want this thing to go live.

If I had to guess though I'd say Ops would be one of the two must have trees on anything but primarily gauss or AC5 builds since I don't think most people will take a full weapon tree unless it's equal energy/ballistic or energy/missile spread of weapons. Basically pick up everything except any of the speed retention nodes (and maybe skip the one hill climb/heat containment set if you're short on nodes).

The base heat capacity is 30 + heatsinks. This is around 20+ extra capacity so going with say, 50 capacity, a full tree gives you +15%, meaning 7.5 extra heat capacity. So I guess to figure out what is worth more you'd have to look at your build, calculate how much heat you are saving each alpha with the weapon skills you picked up and see how many alphas it would take to get to 7.5 saved heat. Then of course you have to calculate how much the 10% extra heat dissipation is saving you from the tree as well. Keep in mind that the more heatsinks you have, the greater the effect of Operations will be. Of course you will need to also calculate how much hea capactity / heat disspeation / heat generation you are getting per node point spent in both mech ops and Weapon tree. It could even be that light mechs with less than 10 true dubs (locust/urbie/etc.) but very hot weapons will be better off spending more points in the weapon tree and JJs and skipping Ops (though I doubt it).

So yea, there's a lot of depth and once someone figured it out and starts making some spreadsheets it could get interesting.

[Reno Blade]

if you say mostly limited by heat this means that you can't sustain the dps, right?

so i assume you would be able to fire 3-4 times then cool off.
in this case, faster cd means you can "burst" faster, but if that means you will fire 1 less voley before you need to cool off, this might be risky.

faster cooling/less heat might give you a 5th volley, but you will still fire at the same rate, so it's more useful in the long run.

usually I'd say heat would be more important, BUT it depends on how much you gain in burst scenarios and in the whole battle.
usually its more worth taking both, as the less heat will nullify the faster heat generation from the faster cooldowns.

[Y E O N N E]

Heat-gen caps out around 5% in each weapon zone in the skill tree. I don't find a 5% improvement to anything to be at all noticeable in the game. The math might say "oh yay more DPS" but the human elements obfuscate it.

10% or more or it isn't worth it.

[Palfatreos]

I never compared them since it wasnt needed before but with the skill tree it intresting to compare however initial looking one seem to be a constant while the other situationel on heatsinks and ?enviroment? (correct me if i am wrong)

so far i see it

Heat gen (+1%) : Reduce heat gen by weapons (ingame discription)

Heat = Weapon heat - Weapon heat * Heat gen

Example for 1 node with 100 heat: 100 - 100 * 1/100 = 99 heat => node effect -1 heat per 100 weapon heat produced.



cool run (+2%): increase heat dissipation rate
Dissapation rate where a i wrap my heat around because it is affected by your heatsink dissipation rate, if it internal heatsink (in the engine not added by the player) or heatsink added later (heatsink putted in the engine slot count here to) and enviroment (a hot map has worse dissipation rate then cold map).

Another problem is idk how to compare the two because one is dirctly aplied while the other works over time.
heat gen = heat reduction, cool run = heat reduction per second.
Anology : in game with health pot/regen. heat gen a health pot that directly heal when used while cool run a health regen that works over time, both affect it but in a different way..

Source :
http://mwomercs.com/...rstanding-heat/

Dissipation rate = X + X*Cool run

With
X = #Internal heatsink * 0,2 heat per second + #heatsink * 0,15 heat per second

Note: i excluded enviroment affect on dissipation rate because idk how precialy it has effect on the node bonus or heatsink, it very important to include the effect but i can't be arsed .

Example for 1 node with:
10 internel,0 heatsink: Dissipation rate = 10 * 0,2 + 10 * 0,2 * 0,02 = 2,04 heat/sec => node effect 0,04 heat/sec
10 internel,10 heatsink: Dissipation rate = 10 * 0,2 + 10 * 0,15 + (10 * 0,2 + 10 * 0,15) * 0,02 = 3,57 heat/sec => node effect 0,07 heat/sec
10 internel,20 heatsink: Dissipation rate = 10 * 0,2 + 20 * 0,15 + (10 * 0,2 + 20 * 0,15) * 0,02 = 5.10 heat/sec => node effect 0,10 heat/sec

Warning:

• The formules i provided aren't tested or proven and i excluded the enviroment effect on dissipation rate. (if envirment affect the bonus node the node effeciveness very different).
  
• My interpretation with +% is : End value = Base value + Base value*% and is the starting point for both formules if this wrong then this whole post can be ignored.
  
• IDK how they round or at which decimal they start rounding this especially important for cool run node.
  
• I have no idea how to compare something that work instant vs something over time.
  
• I also din't take quircks into account it unknown to me if node also have effect on quircks if it doesnt then there no chance in the effectifness of each node. if it does, using the same bonus node as quircks increase the effectifness.

Edited by Palfatreos, 28 April 2017 - 03:35 AM.

[Palfatreos]

Played some more in PTS witht he fomules in mind (i still din't test it, i am not person to get data, only playing with theories ) there one thing i relooked that i previously din't even gave it a try and that the miscalcous tree with the item slots. Now for 5 nodes you can have 2 coolshot 18 with 50% etra effectifness making 1 coolshot reduce 27 heat for one time use. (there is a cooldown to use second coolshot so you cant instantly use 2 at a time but idk how long that cooldown is also there one node to reduce that cooldown to 25%).

Now for 5 nodes you get 54 heat reduction. This in my eyes looks worth to trade 5 nodes of +1% heatgen node because it take 1100 weapen heat produced to brake even. Looks alot to me also the coolshots give you the edge where you dont have time to cool off/short battles. (idk how much heat an avarage person produce per QP or FW match per mech).

Edited by Palfatreos, 28 April 2017 - 05:19 AM.