58 replies to this topic

[Kotzi]

You dont need agility if you can use the skills to maximise poptarting or boating.

[Lily from animove]

FupDup, on 27 April 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

The top Clan mechs that are currently quirkless are immune to PGI's quirk nerfs that are going to hit nearly every IS mech and a lot of sub-par Clan Omnimechs. Meanwhile, those mechs who got their base quirks nerfed cannot recuperate those nerfs even when they max out the corresponding skill trees.

On the same token, those quirkless mechs now get to actually have quirks.

and this is why the global nerf isn't really global. A global nerf is fine when perfomance gaps get tighter but not when they widen. a global nerf is rather meaningless when everyone equally gets nerfed and the relations stay the same. It will have a minor impact on gameplay and ttk's only then.

But currently and without mech individual skilltrees this global nerf hitted all quirked mechs harder than unquirked ones. some stronk mechs can now even accumulate mods a sskills they couldn't like before. A dangerous min/max situation

Kotzi, on 28 April 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

You dont need agility if you can use the skills to maximise poptarting or boating.

agility is very important, especially for JJ less hill poptarting and corner poptarting, since the importance of this tactic is lessen the time someone can shoot at you. and this is what agility supports.

Edited by Lily from animove, 28 April 2017 - 05:01 AM.

[R Valentine]

Shifty McSwift, on 27 April 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

Blaming the skill tree for that is a weird choice though isn't it? Aren't they separate changes that are also subject to future change? The skill system isn't really the problem here.

Nope. PGI is the one obsessed with bundling in quirk nerfs with the skill tree, not me. When the skill tree got delayed, so did the quirk nerfs. They are in fact, intricately connected because PGI said so. Not my decision, but either way, I just as soon not have a skill tree than nerf IS even more.

[Clownwarlord]

Lily from animove, on 28 April 2017 - 05:00 AM, said:

agility is very important, especially for JJ less hill poptarting and corner poptarting, since the importance of this tactic is lessen the time someone can shoot at you. and this is what agility supports.

First Lily there is no such thing as a JJless poptart. It is called hill humping then.

Secondly when hill humping only acceleration and deceleration matter then.

[lazytopaz]

Simple solution.

Don't nerf quirks (except/apart from engine decoupling)
Implement Skill tree.

Then see if theres loads of OP/IMBA mechs popping all over the place. I really doubt that's gonna happen to loads of mechs. Only to few variants (most probably Clan, and few newest IS mechs).


If you ask me nerfing it across the board it's a general broad sweep. Means op mechs will become good mechs. good mechs become average, average become ****, and **** become invisible (as never seen in game anymore).

So nerfing in general is a huge mistake.

Implement skill tree, monitor the situation and adjust specific (those that are too op) mechs case by case.

[R Valentine]

This isn't a global nerf anyways. We're losing CD and heat management. Well, PPFLD builds need those things a lot less than brawling/DPS builds. Snipers just hide when they're waiting for CDs and heat anyways. DPS builds need to stay exposed for longer periods of time for their DPS to be meaningful. DPS went down, but alpha strike stayed the same. Someone came out a lot better in that deal than the other.

[Coolant]

Pr8Dator2, on 27 April 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

EXACTLY! For so long its a well known fact that stock matches are more fun and we need to understand why that is so and learn that lesson for the main game!

not fun for everyone...it is not a well known fact

[VanillaG]

lazytopaz, on 28 April 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

Don't nerf quirks (except/apart from engine decoupling)
Implement Skill tree.

Then see if theres loads of OP/IMBA mechs popping all over the place. I really doubt that's gonna happen to loads of mechs. Only to few variants (most probably Clan, and few newest IS mechs).


If you ask me nerfing it across the board it's a general broad sweep. Means op mechs will become good mechs. good mechs become average, average become ****, and **** become invisible (as never seen in game anymore).

So nerfing in general is a huge mistake.

Implement skill tree, monitor the situation and adjust specific (those that are too op) mechs case by case.

The quirk nerfing was also in anticipation of the new tech that is coming, not just the skill tree. The real test will be in July with the new tech to see how IS compares with Clans.

[Tordin]

Hoping the ST will "reboot" all mechs. Sure bads will still kinda be bad and and high tier mechs may still be high tier. But as far as I remember, didnt someone from PGI ( Chris, the balance overlord?) say that they would do such, so they from there could tweak the weaker chassi to get help and the uber strong ones less help? I do count on that. Andmaybe add special chassi, variant nodes for specific mechs to make em more unique. Nodes that dont need requirments of other nodes to get.

[R Valentine]

VanillaG, on 28 April 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

The quirk nerfing was also in anticipation of the new tech that is coming, not just the skill tree. The real test will be in July with the new tech to see how IS compares with Clans.

Oh yes, so IS deserves to suck even more for the next 3 months because new tech might help in July. Sorry, that makes zero sense. If the new tech means quirks can come down, then the quirks should come down then, not now.

[Clownwarlord]

A global nerfing means nothing changes. Here is why.

If you assign a mech a number of one through ten, and one being the bad ten being good.

SO ... just for example

Timberwolf 10
Linebacker 6

Those numbers before global nerfing. So global nerfing will be a minus 3 to all mechs.

Timberwolf 7
Linebacker 3

Still a 4 point difference between comparing the mechs to one another.

[R Valentine]

Clownwarlord, on 28 April 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

A global nerfing means nothing changes. Here is why.

If you assign a mech a number of one through ten, and one being the bad ten being good.

SO ... just for example

Timberwolf 10
Linebacker 6

Those numbers before global nerfing. So global nerfing will be a minus 3 to all mechs.

Timberwolf 7
Linebacker 3

Still a 4 point difference between comparing the mechs to one another.

If anything, things got worse, because 6/10 > 3/7. So even in that case, it wasn't "global" at all. The weaker mech still got the worst of it.

[Insanity09]

So, if I understand correctly, OP, you are one of those saying the ttk is too low.

the tldr portion
Sweeping changes are rarely the correct answer, and they often introduce more problems. This skill tree change (incl. module removal), plus the quirk removal/reduction, plus engine decoupling; all together these are the very definition of sweeping and major changes.
Who the heck knows exactly what will happen? The trends do rather strongly suggest themselves, however, and they don't look good.

And now, the wall of text for those who can handle reading.
I do not entirely disagree that ttk is too low, but believe there are several factors that make this the case.

The biggest factor in low ttk was and will remain focus fire. Get into the sights of multiple enemies at once, particularly when you are the only one they see, and your lifespan is, rightly, measured in seconds. The changes don't address that (how could they?).
DPS and scan weapons are not the problem. (these have been hurt the most with the upcoming changes)
Reducing agility (lowering the ability to twist and dodge incoming fire) is not an answer, and in fact does the reverse.
Increasing durability, in the form of armor and structure enhancements through the skill tree, could help.

A push towards ppfld weaponry and builds, including snipers, will not truly enhance the experience. By comparatively lessening the power of DPS/scan weapons ppfld is being made more prominent. (let's face it, a long range peek fest is not a particularly enjoyable game, it is a slow drag, esp if everyone is doing it)

Higher cooldown ppfld weapons (those effectively less impacted by overall cooldown nerfs), are more usable by heavier mechs (those weapons typically weigh more), which means the gap between light and assault will increase, not shrink.
Long range fights are particularly bad for light mechs. Most cannot support the weight to effectively trade. Long range weapons typically hit hard and thus make it more likely that lights will be wiped out before they ever get a chance to close.

If the goal was to address low ttk, I'd have done a series of changes taking place in different patches, so that the effectiveness of each change could be judged before the next step was taken....

I would first have enhanced durability (better armor and structure). If worried about the light/assult gap, make the improvement a straight numerical buff, which would then help lights more, rather than a percentage increase, which would help assaults more.
Next step, an overall lowering of weapon damage and effectiveness might have be needed. I mean all weapons across the board (numbers for a given weapon might vary, but I'd start with a 5-10% decrease in damage and possible burn times (thus spreading out damage over a longer duration, making it more likely that some damage would miss or be avoided)). For this step, I would carefully data mine and determine which weapons were most heavily involved in killing mechs precisely (ct blown/head shot, but very little other damage, etc.). Those weapons would be more heavily nerfed.
Finally, selective cooldown increases on weapons which particularly cause low ttk (which are, ahem, primarily high damage ppfld) might also be needed. Again, data mine to determine which weapons truly need to be changed.

A balance must be struck between allowing people to feel effective (peppering away at a target for minutes on end feels weak) and not victimized (blown away quickly).

Lots of changes all at once? That's asking for trouble.

I should also point out that I'm not against the skill tree change in principle. I'm a major fan of customization in games, and the current skill tree doesn't allow for that. However... (see many other threads)

[KodiakGW]

With threads like this, glad I bought Jade Kite. Only going to need that, KDK-3, ACH, and TBR/EBJ after May. Because this is to who PGI is listening.

The new Skill Tree is basically this: removal of weapon module benefits, removal of double efficiencies of Basic skills when Elited, overall armor/structure buffs, increase use of consumables, and locking desired current Elite skills/Mech modules behind unwanted/useless Mech modules. All to theoretically increase TTK, which it won't for top competitive players who know how to aim and kill efficiently. It is not what they were selling: the ability to customize your mech the way you want to play it. If it was, I would be able to trade in the massive mobility quirks on the Top Dog for a decent ERPPC Velocity buff (decent being 20%+, not the 10% currently available) so I could run 2xERPPC and 6SPL like I wanted. Yet another player could keep the mobility quirks and run all MPL.

They could have saved themselves a lot of programming time and just removed the things they are removing, and give every mech an armor or structure buff. There, you just "increased" TTK.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Kiran Yagami, on 28 April 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

If anything, things got worse, because 6/10 > 3/7. So even in that case, it wasn't "global" at all. The weaker mech still got the worst of it.

dropping Maths on the dumb is always funny

[Shifty McSwift]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 28 April 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

dropping Maths on the dumb is always funny

Dropping loose ad hominems that really say nothing must be fun too.

[Pixel Hunter]

but its not a global nerf! mechs that are already un-quirked because of their quality only benefit from this release, while heavily quirked mechs lose their shirt.

it's like saying "well everyone is gonna lose a house when the flood happens, were all in the same boat!" and forgetting the rich people on the hill

Edited by Gimpy117, 28 April 2017 - 01:57 PM.

[Pr8Dator2]

lazytopaz, on 28 April 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

Simple solution.

Don't nerf quirks (except/apart from engine decoupling)
Implement Skill tree.

Then see if theres loads of OP/IMBA mechs popping all over the place. I really doubt that's gonna happen to loads of mechs. Only to few variants (most probably Clan, and few newest IS mechs).


If you ask me nerfing it across the board it's a general broad sweep. Means op mechs will become good mechs. good mechs become average, average become ****, and **** become invisible (as never seen in game anymore).

So nerfing in general is a huge mistake.

Implement skill tree, monitor the situation and adjust specific (those that are too op) mechs case by case.

Actually, I kinda agree with this...

[MischiefSC]

Pr8Dator2, on 27 April 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Too many complains about how their mechs are not as agile as before, not shooting as much DPS as before with the new skill tree but they miss one point...

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS GAME NEEDS NOW!

This game has power creeped to a point where fights last 3 seconds and one missed shot means you die! This has become such an unfriendly game for the casual player and even some veterans that its going to be INSANE with the new weapons coming up!

We need a global nerf to make this game playable again! Less speed, less DPS, more forgiving, less light/assault gap. This is the exact most important thing about this skill tree IMO. Complainers forget, its not your mech alone getting hit, EVERY mech is getting hit, some more than others but all for a better and more forgiving game!

I played the test server and my lance of HBK IIC became so sluggish I am sure I won't be bossing around in them like before and thats a GOOD THING!! Less heavy and medium mechs running and fllying around like light mechs and less light mechs behaving like ninjas that cant be dropped by 4 mechs firing at 1 of them at the same time for over 20 seconds!

I agree with the concept but not the method.

As others have said, this won't do that. On the PTS my Roughneck 3A is better than on live. Same everything but 15% laser burn duration quirk. Just losing Derp and/or Seismic which I can make up for with situational awareness anyway and especially a UAV.

A better option would be making the weapon quirks max out at say 7.5% Cooldown for 8 pts spent, 10% range for 5 pts, etc. Minimal and a direct line so most of us might go a few dots into it for a bit more function but mostly go for things like spread reduction on missiles and LBX or overall heat capacity and more armor/structure, etc.

The key is to make the skill tree have worthwhile tradeoffs. The new one doesn't.