140 replies to this topic

[Johnathan Tanner]

This "Skill Tree" Is a total Flying dumpster fire that is about to crash into a fuel depot. If this goes live I can see it driving the last good players and teams from the game. Really this will not go over well with veteran players. Being forced to take garbage "NODES" To try and maintain the quirks and modules we have now. And don't even bother with CW after this, (RIP IS) see attached mental image of EBJ with mobility,Structure and burn duration approaching that of a 6d. Why should we put up with this? I see no benefit to anyone from this except maybe lorewarrior stock mechers, and people who have been dying to dishonor an atlas by giving it lrm 20 cooldown. Kill this tree with fire.

[HGAK47]

Yes I actually have spent some time on the test server. I dislike the skill tree purely for similar reasons to those already pointed out..... not that a skill tree is in itself a bad idea.

That being said its very easy for us to criticise so I did what we ALL should do - I went and downloaded the test server and got on it for myself. I had complaints for sure and it really put me off but I wanted to actually test the mechs in combat.

Spent two sessions the other day of around half an hour trying to find a match but I had 0 luck. Now the PTS is down again so I didnt get any actual testing time other than testing grounds. I hope next time is a bit better.

[Kotzi]

Coincidentally every time a PTS is availiable, that weekend you got an event.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 28 April 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

I'm going to be a very happy camper!

On the contrary, with so many strikes you won't be camping at all!

FupDup, on 28 April 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

The Cheetah can also do 8 MGs if you mix the RT of the hero with the arms of the ACH-E.

I wonder if the 6 MG Spider still keeps PGI up at night...

Something something Piranha is now redundant...

[VanillaG]

Ultimax, on 28 April 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

You didn't read it. You are commenting and you did not read it.

Your statement clearly shows you have no idea what you are talking about - specifically for not reading it.

Go back and read it, I won't invest time with a response otherwise. I'm not here to hold you hand.

Here is the relevant section with the important note highlighted:

Quote

FIREPOWER

Reasoning:

• The ability to affect your weapons via the skill tree is extremely powerful. The majority of players have stated they would allocate the majority of their points into the trees as I have them laid out. This change will remove the player's choice of investing skill points into weapon trees enables them to focus on more meaningful decisions and trade-offs within the system. They can allocate their skill points between more comparable valued benefits from the remaining trees.
  
• More meaningful decisions on the weapon trees and more direct player choice between comparable benefits.
  
• Separated weapon trees will no longer give an advantage to boating a specific weapon because every weapon can be modified by the same amount. This allows you to fully customize the efficiency of a mech with multiple weapon systems, making them more effective compared to boating.

How it works:

• Each weapon will have its own tree
  
• Each tree will have a maximum active node amount determined by the mech's firepower rating
  
• Unlocking nodes will cost xp/gxp
  
• Activating nodes will cost cbills
  
• No cost for deactivating a nodes
  
• Only trees associated with your build will be shown by default. The other weapon trees will be collapsed by default
  
• Note: this does drastically increase the maximum potential xp sink into just the weapon trees. This can be addressed by their cost, but it also gives players something to continue investing xp into past their initial "maxed" skill tree.

Each weapon can have the same number of nodes unlocked but you need to grind out the CBills and XP on each weapon tree to unlock the nodes. The only difference from the current tree is the max number of nodes for weapons is not in the same pool as the rest of the mech. Like I said earlier, this promotes boating early in the process and limits build diversity because you would need to unlock the same nodes in each weapon tree.

The generic nodes in the current firepower tree can be unlocked once and tweaked if you want to add weapons specific nodes like Jam Chance or Missile Spread based on how your build changes.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 April 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

On the contrary, with so many strikes you won't be camping at all!

Did you just pull a joke, or are you unfamiliar with the slang term "happy camper"? It's the internet and as such I cannot tell at all.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 29 April 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Did you just pull a joke, or are you unfamiliar with the slang term "happy camper"? It's the internet and as such I cannot tell at all.

I never joke. Ever.

Not even once.

[Pixel Hunter]

VanillaG, on 29 April 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Each weapon can have the same number of nodes unlocked but you need to grind out the CBills and XP on each weapon tree to unlock the nodes.

yep, Pay to get your quirks back. they pulled to old reverse Robin Hood on quirked mech owners...especially IS pilots

[Lukoi Banacek]

Mystere, on 29 April 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Did you just pull a joke, or are you unfamiliar with the slang term "happy camper"? It's the internet and as such I cannot tell at all.

Mystere, did you not get that he was using a pun for fun there, "camping" in shooting games (since the extra strikes will drive you from position) vice the expression happy camper? It's the internet, so I cannot tell at all

[Mystere]

Lukoi Banacek, on 29 April 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Mystere, did you not get that he was using a pun for fun there, "camping" in shooting games (since the extra strikes will drive you from position) vice the expression happy camper? It's the internet, so I cannot tell at all

But so was I!

[Tarogato]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Have you actually seriously tried to use it?

I mean it. Who's actually tried to use it? As though you were seriously trying to build a mech.

So to get the mobility stuff back from the skill tree I have to spend 61 pts to get 50 pts of quirks I need. I don't want to buy the hill climb module. I never did. Why am I forced to? And the gyro module? I can't get useful **** without wasting 11 SP.

Weapons are even worse. While I can avoid ever having to buy a gauss charge up, LBX spread or UAC Jam quirk if I don't want them it's impossible to get the range, cooldown and heat gen quirks without buying laser quirks. Also 2 ammo capacity quirks - for a mech with no ballistic or missile points.

So you have to utterly waste 22 skill points to get useful quirks. It's not possible, literally and mechanically, to get back what you lost in the skill tree with 91SP. To get 84 pts of what would be useful I have to spend 106.

Specifically because you've got to get 22 pts worth of **** you don't need or likely want. That possibly has no actual use on your mech.

With modules at least I can just get what I want.

**** it. I'd rather stick with what we have. I've given this criticism every single time. I'm more than willing to go with **** all whatever on the refund to get there. I want a skill tree ...

but I abso -****ing-lutely hate, despise and would quit playing the game over intentionally stupid stuff like this. If SP cost not just XP but cbills then the intentionally making me throw some away, be unable to build the skill tree in a way I find value in, because some total ***hole somewhere thinks it's funny to make people buy something of absolutely no use at all what so ever to get something of critical use, that's something that will irritate me every single time I go to skill a mech.

Stop it PGI. ******* STOP IT.

Not kidding. Tina, I hope you're reading and collecting this. The next time there's a meeting to discuss the skill tree and changes, please take a dish rag and soak it in water. Twist it up and whenever someone says this is a good idea or tries to justify it, please say 'Well, the general player opinion on that was' and then out of nowhere, WHAP! Right across the face with a wet rag.

I want to love the skill tree, I want to be onboard with the new changes. I'm game with the skill tree being an overall nerf, I'm game with it adding another money sink. Christ, I buy 99% of my mechs with cash. I want to feel good about doing so.

That aspect of the change however doesn't make me feel good. It irritates me greatly. See how the ballistic side of the weapons skill tree has gauss charge up, LBX and UAC jam chance reduction? See how I can get all the useful, general weapon quirks without touching them?

Mobility, operations and the left side of the firepower skill tree need to be the same. If I need laser quirks I'll get them. If I need missile quirks I'll get them. If I decide I want to utterly waste some SP, I'll get hill climb and gyro quirks and arm pitch quirks. However general quirks and useful quirks hidden behind worthless quirks when we're only allowed X quirks on a mech?

That sucks. A lot. Even on the PTS I've run out of patience for having to even look at it while just skilling up 2 of my 140+ mechs.

Kill it with fire.

Oh boy, this looks like another one of those entitled over reacting crybaby posts. Just a wall of incessant text whine.


*actually reads it*


I agree.

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

So to get the mobility stuff back from the skill tree I have to spend 61 pts to get 50 pts of quirks I need.

[...]

I'm game with the skill tree being an overall nerf,

Is it just me or did you contradict yourself? You're complaining that you can't get back the mobility you used to have, but you're okay with the skill tree nerfing mobility? That was the idea behind the skill tree... if you want mobility, you need to pay MORE for it, because it's more VALUABLE.

That's the reason they are forcing you to take "useless" stuff (most of which isn't useless at all, it's just less valuable). They are giving you bonus stuff in return that you otherwise would not have taken. You're getting it for free. You're spending 61 pts to get the skills you want, and 11 of them give you bonus stuff you would not have taken otherwise. The alternative system would be to make you spend 61 pts to get the stuff you want, and give you nothing for free. That is how Solahma's tree works, for instance.


That said, I'm not about to defend the idea. I was just playing devil's advocate here. I actually think its aids on this game. Just the very idea of spending for stuff I don't want to get more of what I do want... is irritating. Extremely irritating. Very extremely aggravatingly irritating. IMO, the skill tree designed by Solahma is what I envisioned when PGI first announced they were making a new skill tree. And instead PGI came up with this Skill Cobweb that gets everybody caught up in it.

In short, I would MUCH RATHER have a skill tree that does NOT give me free things. I don't want free things. I want what I want, and I will take what I want. Allow me to take what I want. Don't clutter the tree with landmines of stuff I don't care about that I'm forced to step on. If I wanted that stuff, I would take it separately. And if nobody takes them because they are not worth taking? Then either buff them, or reduce their cost (by spreading their bonus across fewer nodes). Similarly, are there skills that everybody is taking every time? Under Solahma's design this is easy to fix - spread them across more nodes, a higher investment. Or just nerf their values. Solahma's design makes this so easy to adjust. PGI's Cobweb on the other hand is a complete mess and balancing costs after it is introduced will be a pain it the аss.

[Deathlike]

Do people not realize this was the same issue in the previous Skill tree PTS (the one before the recent one that just ended)?

The issues regarding the specifics didn't really change... at best PGI "said" a few things changed, but let's be honest... it's closer to window dressing calling it "new and revised" when it's really just "barely revised, same poop".

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

Oh boy, this looks like another one of those entitled over reacting crybaby posts. Just a wall of incessant text whine.


*actually reads it*


I agree.







Is it just me or did you contradict yourself? You're complaining that you can't get back the mobility you used to have, but you're okay with the skill tree nerfing mobility? That was the idea behind the skill tree... if you want mobility, you need to pay MORE for it, because it's more VALUABLE.

That's the reason they are forcing you to take "useless" stuff (most of which isn't useless at all, it's just less valuable). They are giving you bonus stuff in return that you otherwise would not have taken. You're getting it for free. You're spending 61 pts to get the skills you want, and 11 of them give you bonus stuff you would not have taken otherwise. The alternative system would be to make you spend 61 pts to get the stuff you want, and give you nothing for free. That is how Solahma's tree works, for instance.


That said, I'm not about to defend the idea. I was just playing devil's advocate here. I actually think its aids on this game. Just the very idea of spending for stuff I don't want to get more of what I do want... is irritating. Extremely irritating. Very extremely aggravatingly irritating. IMO, the skill tree designed by Solahma is what I envisioned when PGI first announced they were making a new skill tree. And instead PGI came up with this Skill Cobweb that gets everybody caught up in it.

In short, I would MUCH RATHER have a skill tree that does NOT give me free things. I don't want free things. I want what I want, and I will take what I want. Allow me to take what I want. Don't clutter the tree with landmines of stuff I don't care about that I'm forced to step on. If I wanted that stuff, I would take it separately. And if nobody takes them because they are not worth taking? Then either buff them, or reduce their cost (by spreading their bonus across fewer nodes). Similarly, are there skills that everybody is taking every time? Under Solahma's design this is easy to fix - spread them across more nodes, a higher investment. Or just nerf their values. Solahma's design makes this so easy to adjust. PGI's Cobweb on the other hand is a complete mess and balancing costs after it is introduced will be a pain it the аss.

I am happy with an overall nerf. I do however want worthwhile tradeoffs. 5 SP worth of Speed Tweak is not worth 1 SO of Seismic and 4 worthless sensor quirks. 5 pts of armor average all over an Assault is not worth 10 pts of cool running, quick start and useful OPs quirks.

There's no tradeoff in the system. If the linear tree for Cooldown goes 0.5 to 7.5 in 0.5 increments and the hill climb goes in 7.5 increments to 45 them trading 0.5 cooldown for 7.5 hill climb is a tradeoff with equal value. It's a system that creates room for both compromise and specialization without too much minmax because cooldown still caps at 7.5.

With gating I can't. I can't trade any hill climb without most of my speed tweak, which isn't worth it. I need arm quirks for banshee with no arm mounts. It gives me nothing to compromise intelligently and no reason to do so.

I make more relevant compromises with modules, choosing which weapons to module and derp vs seismic vs zoom.

[Deathlike]

Even a simplified tree that you had to decide between is better than this..

Three Options: Firepower/Heat, Mech Agility/Structure, Sensors (just a few off the top of my head)

You can ONLY pick 1 or 2 of the 3, and you'd have a limited # of points based off what you picked (picking 2 will get you less than picking just 1).

Much effort would have to be made to balance all 3, and they would have nodes that are "equal enough" to each other (numbers would change through an iterative process). There would be no filler BS that you don't want (like AMS overload in the X5).

That's how I would do it.

Whatever we're going to get though... is nothing like being envisioned here or anything PGI has claimed/said before.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 April 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tordin, on 29 April 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

Oh this thread...

Well I bet the non adaptive meta heads/ comfort zoners gotta be angry at the new skill tree (or is) for all I know.
"Blaaaaargh! now there will be to much varied use of weapons, node blocks everywhere in the way of one trick builds!!".
And damn the generalists, they surely lobbied PGI into making this skill web (for god and bad), making life terrible hard for the hazzleful node requirments the comfort zoners have to go through to AT LEAST get close to a one, trick pony build that should NEVER be changed, because then they will quit the game you know. And curse the infidels before they do... its a game for only the ultra competive you know

Praise the only mech this game should ever have..



If thisgame turns into that...
Please PGI dont listen to them, or we might aswell go play hawken.. Constructive critism of the tree from the ordinary player or those with solid balance and streamlining knowledge. Not take "advice" from non adaptive ultra comps, meta heads, black knights, white knights, yes-men and so on.

Insert the ST lredy and adjust it thereafter. Help the poor little mechs that suffer, smack those mechs that overperform and make each variant or at least chassi on both IS and Clan side more unique in form of special nodes with no requirments etc

Except that's why the complaints about the skill tree as is. The gating system ensures there's no real room for adaptation, just a lot of terrible choices and a couple optimal ones - which is a waste of time.

So neglecting mobility/OPs in favor of sensors and such will get you stomped just like good players in meta mechs stomp people with un mastered mechs with bad loadouts - only now you can double down and have badly skilled mechs with bad loadouts against good mechs with good loadouts.

The complaint is the LACK of change from the current system. WHY do the skill tree if the result is pretty much what we have right now, plus a way for people to effectively play at even more of a disadvantage. The gated skill tree design offers as much "new customization" as taking STD heatsinks, FF instead of Endo or a Clan STD engine instead of CXL.

Hence the request for a more linear skill tree. More options for real change.

[Tarogato]

MischiefSC, on 29 April 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

I am happy with an overall nerf. I do however want worthwhile tradeoffs. 5 SP worth of Speed Tweak is not worth 1 SO of Seismic and 4 worthless sensor quirks. 5 pts of armor average all over an Assault is not worth 10 pts of cool running, quick start and useful OPs quirks.

I don't understand.

"5SP worth of Speed Tweak is not worth 5SP in sensors"

You don't have to put SP into sensors to get Speed Tweak. You put them into agility in order to get Speed Tweak.

You don't have to put 10 pts into Cool Run and Quick Start to get 5 pts of armour. You put them into into Shock Absorbance and Crit Resistance to get Armour Hardening.


I don't understand what/how/why you are criticising, because your examples are literally false.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

I don't understand.

"5SP worth of Speed Tweak is not worth 5SP in sensors"

You don't have to put SP into sensors to get Speed Tweak. You put them into agility in order to get Speed Tweak.

You don't have to put 10 pts into Cool Run and Quick Start to get 5 pts of armour. You put them into into Shock Absorbance and Crit Resistance to get Armour Hardening.


I don't understand what/how/why you are criticising, because your examples are literally false.

I don't think Mischief is wrong, but it's really an assessment of "what is important".

Does putting in X amount of points in one particular spec the equivalent of putting Y (a close # to X) amount of points in another stat?

If the answer is no, there is a problem.

Let's keep it simple...

Does getting all the AMS overload points on the X5 worth getting at all? You know this is rhetorical question.... but let's go to the finer points...

Is getting X of points for say laser duration worth the same as getting Y points for all the accel/decel quirks? This is a more complex question. In the case PGI provided, you could get both... which isn't "a choice". You want less duration for less facetime, but you also want more accel/decel so you can peek and return to your position better. While my example isn't perfect, but this is the kind of analysis that would have to be done (with scrutiny) under a properly balanced tree (which isn't probably being vetted properly).

[Baba_Yaga]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Have you actually seriously tried to use it?

I mean it. Who's actually tried to use it? As though you were seriously trying to build a mech.

So to get the mobility stuff back from the skill tree I have to spend 61 pts to get 50 pts of quirks I need. I don't want to buy the hill climb module. I never did. Why am I forced to? And the gyro module? I can't get useful **** without wasting 11 SP.

Weapons are even worse. While I can avoid ever having to buy a gauss charge up, LBX spread or UAC Jam quirk if I don't want them it's impossible to get the range, cooldown and heat gen quirks without buying laser quirks. Also 2 ammo capacity quirks - for a mech with no ballistic or missile points.



So you have to utterly waste 22 skill points to get useful quirks. It's not possible, literally and mechanically, to get back what you lost in the skill tree with 91SP. To get 84 pts of what would be useful I have to spend 106.

Specifically because you've got to get 22 pts worth of **** you don't need or likely want. That possibly has no actual use on your mech.

With modules at least I can just get what I want.

**** it. I'd rather stick with what we have. I've given this criticism every single time. I'm more than willing to go with **** all whatever on the refund to get there. I want a skill tree ...

but I abso -****ing-lutely hate, despise and would quit playing the game over intentionally stupid stuff like this. If SP cost not just XP but cbills then the intentionally making me throw some away, be unable to build the skill tree in a way I find value in, because some total ***hole somewhere thinks it's funny to make people buy something of absolutely no use at all what so ever to get something of critical use, that's something that will irritate me every single time I go to skill a mech.

Stop it PGI. ******* STOP IT.

Not kidding. Tina, I hope you're reading and collecting this. The next time there's a meeting to discuss the skill tree and changes, please take a dish rag and soak it in water. Twist it up and whenever someone says this is a good idea or tries to justify it, please say 'Well, the general player opinion on that was' and then out of nowhere, WHAP! Right across the face with a wet rag.

I want to love the skill tree, I want to be onboard with the new changes. I'm game with the skill tree being an overall nerf, I'm game with it adding another money sink. Christ, I buy 99% of my mechs with cash. I want to feel good about doing so.

That aspect of the change however doesn't make me feel good. It irritates me greatly. See how the ballistic side of the weapons skill tree has gauss charge up, LBX and UAC jam chance reduction? See how I can get all the useful, general weapon quirks without touching them?

Mobility, operations and the left side of the firepower skill tree need to be the same. If I need laser quirks I'll get them. If I need missile quirks I'll get them. If I decide I want to utterly waste some SP, I'll get hill climb and gyro quirks and arm pitch quirks. However general quirks and useful quirks hidden behind worthless quirks when we're only allowed X quirks on a mech?

That sucks. A lot. Even on the PTS I've run out of patience for having to even look at it while just skilling up 2 of my 140+ mechs.

Kill it with fire.

Be careful the pgi police will get offended!

[Havyek]

I've just always wondered why they want to make their game suck until you've spend enough time in it to make it better.

You'd think PGI would want all the 'Mechs/weapons etc to essentially be even between players, not advantage going to the person who has played the longest NOT the one who is a better shooter/strategist.

Let's keep making new players fodder who rage quit!

[MischiefSC]

Tarogato, on 29 April 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

I don't understand.

"5SP worth of Speed Tweak is not worth 5SP in sensors"

You don't have to put SP into sensors to get Speed Tweak. You put them into agility in order to get Speed Tweak.

You don't have to put 10 pts into Cool Run and Quick Start to get 5 pts of armour. You put them into into Shock Absorbance and Crit Resistance to get Armour Hardening.


I don't understand what/how/why you are criticising, because your examples are literally false.

I'm saying that because if gating if I want to reduce agility or ops I'm giving up speed tweak, or cool running and quickstart and I would need a minimum of 5 pts freed up to get the 4 gated low-value sensor nodes to get 1 pt of Seismic.

It's the way gating in the skill tree works. I can't give up any amount of, say, hill climb without giving up nearly all of Speed Tweak and other actually useful agility first. As such there's no way to give up a bit of agility for a bit of sensors that isn't a terrible trade.