16 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

First, a mini-rant:

To be honest, the first topics I want to cover is the Skill Tree discussion. But seeing as how there are like 10 thousand threads about it already (and the rampant hypocrisy of how people no longer getting screwed from the last compensation idea is now telling people that are getting screwed now to "accept it" because they want a tree. lame, right?)

So all I'm going to say to that is... whatever.
/end rant
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This is Advance Combat Tactics. Continuing my first thread discussing high level player:

https://mwomercs.com...player-and-you/

I like to continue discussing the minute details and specifics in a coming series that will all start with "Advance Combat Tactics"

Before we get started, this is from theb33f's stream today:


Now, there are a myriad of things we can learn. But specifically, I want to fast forward to around the 2 minute mark where theb33f meets the ASN that almost killed him.

He let him go.

And here and lies one of the fundamental difference separating good pilots from a GREAT pilot. Never fight alone.

Now, don't get me wrong, if you have an absolute advantage (for example, brawl range vs long range weapon) or forced into a 1v1 situation, then I guess you have no choice but to reduce the number. But I want to discuss the core tenet in that, you never want to fight fair.

Assuming both pilots opposing are equally good, 130 damage thrown out is usually 130 damage returned. However, when you double your number, it's still 130 damage throw out, but now, it's only 65 damages returned, and potentially split in half. Meaning, doubling your number is making a combat 4x more effective in your favor.

Now, theb33f could have chased down the ASN in that scenario, and VERY possibly kill him. But he chose to disengage in a fair fight and instead let the numbers do the work for him. Though I can't find reference on this, but I'm fairly sure that I read before that the most successful German Ace Erich Hartman (either him or the Red Baron Richtofen) has a combat doctrine of never fighting unless they have an advantage in numbers.

A lot of veterans play this game, and you can easily ask them about the United States general rule of engagement. You don't WANT to fight unless you have an absolute advantage, which is a far outcry from movie depiction of a one man or small squad killing like 500 guys. In fact, it's typically 500 guys required to kill 10 guys.

Too often, pilots want to roleplay themselves as a matador or as a duelist. But that's just not an effective way to fight. One, you don't know what skill your opponent really is, and second, you are not applying the force multiplier as I discussed earlier.

Early game, because lights and mediums are generally fastest, so often time you see lights chasing down one another and try to duke it out at the very beginning. Applying the principle, that's a terrible fight. For starter, never fight alone. Second, you don't have as much time as you think before reinforcement arrives. Missiles have a range of 1km. While by itself, missiles are damn easy to deal with. But to have to fight 6 small pulse laser WHILE dealing with missiles? Completely different story.

And too often, games are won or lost in the beginning because of an overzealous light wanting to duel. The fact is, unless you are Krivvin or someone of that caliber, a less than 20 second window is not enough for you to engage successfully. (and I doubt someone the skill level of Krivvin is going to run and fight solo in the beginning of the match and expand himself) Instead, early game should just be a focus on map control, not a showcase of some heroic honor of dueling solo.

Remember, your 6 small pulse lasers against 12 fresh mechs is suicide. But they are downright deadly toward the late game with beat up mechs. I never fear a fresh assault toward the end of the match as opposed to a 70-80% light.

The core tenet of fighting can also be applied to two other situations.

One, during mid/late game contests, this is why it's crucial to synchronize your action with your teammate. If 3 people out of 6 are not poking, then you solo poking for 40 damages is probably a bad idea as 6 people on the other side is each waiting with 40 damages of their own. 40 for 240 returned, never a good thing. Don't chase down. Don't get battle blindness. Sync and focus attack for that force multiplier is a lot more advantageous.

Two, this is why a solo "flank" is so hard to pull off. If you can time it correctly, then you are technically not "solo-ing" as you are timing your flank attack in coordination with the main front push. While it's never bad to open up new angles of attack, a solo "flank" is highly dangerous if you are not disciplined. Too many heavies/assaults are lost this way because they expose themselves too early. When you are by yourself, you are subjecting to the same force multiplier, except... on you.
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I hoped you enjoyed this week's discussion on advance combat tactics. More to come in the future!

Edited by razenWing, 28 April 2017 - 02:43 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Well, yeah.. I mean right?

I don't know if it is advanced though, for me this is teamgaming 101.

[El Bandito]

This is indeed the case. I always see my pugmates as meatshields, and I usually poke my head out and shoot when they do it first. Never peek alone, or first, when the enemy is expected.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 April 2017 - 05:12 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

"Never fight fair."

That's my motto!

[Old-dirty B]

An honorfull dogfight with another light, a proper duel, is what im hoping for every time i join the solo quick play queue. But i prefer to do such a dogfight without spectators, friendly or not - just in case some cant hold him selves and interveres.

[sharknoise]

This is all well and good, but every match is 12 vs 12. So if your lance is currenlty fighting against one enemy mech, it often means that at the same time couple of your slow assaults are being smashed by the rest of the enemy, left without your support. The search for numerical advantage often leads to long chases and nascaring. It's very obvious on circular QP maps like Caustic and HPG, also on Polar. Moving in a perfect deathball is often hindered by some terrain so slower mechs are a bit behind. Then the head of your team sees an enemy at some distance and thinks it has an advantage, ignoring the fact that the tail is already receiving fire. There you go, everything becomes a random brawl.

Edited by sharknoise, 28 April 2017 - 11:30 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

sharknoise, on 28 April 2017 - 11:29 PM, said:

This is all well and good, but every match is 12 vs 12. So if your lance is currenlty fighting against one enemy mech, it often means that at the same time couple of your slow assaults are being smashed by the rest of the enemy. There you go, everything becomes a random brawl.

That's why nascar is easily cointered by simply turning around.to face the enemy. Your big guys are.already in position. Your fast guys just need.to provide a.united front against the opfor.

Its an easy fight because if you do that, THEIR assaults get.left.out of position

[Shifty McSwift]

[razenWing]

JENNER llC, on 28 April 2017 - 11:26 PM, said:

Col. Robin Olds - triple ace and dogfighting extraordinaire


"There are pilots and there are pilots; with the good ones, it is inborn. You can't teach it. If you are a fighter pilot, you have to be willing to take risks."

he broke main formation with his wingman to take on 50 Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighters in their 2 P-38 Lightnings
later he went on to slaughter MiGs while outnumbered over vietnam
https://youtu.be/6E85VbXDNVE?t=6m41s

There is a problem using his model. He doesn't get infinite respawn. You do. So if you want to improve your play to be consistent like uber players, then you don't play reckless. You play with statistics.

I have charged my KGC and do a wide flank solo do kill 5 LRM boats in quick succession. But that happened ONE time. It's not a consistent thing.

sharknoise, on 28 April 2017 - 11:29 PM, said:

This is all well and good, but every match is 12 vs 12. So if your lance is currenlty fighting against one enemy mech, it often means that at the same time couple of your slow assaults are being smashed by the rest of the enemy, left without your support. The search for numerical advantage often leads to long chases and nascaring. It's very obvious on circular QP maps like Caustic and HPG, also on Polar. Moving in a perfect deathball is often hindered by some terrain so slower mechs are a bit behind. Then the head of your team sees an enemy at some distance and thinks it has an advantage, ignoring the fact that the tail is already receiving fire. There you go, everything becomes a random brawl.

Yes, game is 12 v 12. Realistic, that's the worst case scenario in a real battle, cause you are fighting fair. However, in terms of small scale engagement and situation, you can force an advantage by creating odds.

First, one must know that the importance of combat space. There is a reason why 300 Spartans can hold off a gajillion Persians, albeit for only 3 days. So in a small combat space the size of a square, you are not going to fit 24 mechs inside. The more mech you can fit into an engagement square, the more advantage you have to the fight.

And if you win enough fights by always having advantage, you will win the war. (Which in this case, the 12v12 game)

This thread is basically saying that assuming if you can isolate an opponent and cut him off from support (which often time, people make the mistake that they don't even clear that info before engaging), it's still NOT advisable unless you are absolutely confident that you can win, and win quickly without too much retribution. Say you are both brawl of the same mech, I would say not to fight that 1v1 battle, especially at the beginning of the game. Mid-late game when well... there aren't too many targets left, then by all means, go nuts. but not when after you finish off 1 guy, there are still 11 others waiting on your beat-up mech.

[MischiefSC]

The key is aggression. The team with the most tends to win. 9 times in 10 when you're with 3 people rushing a lone guy or 2 the rest of the other team is still hanging back poking (or lurming) with the rest of your team. Yes, technically they have a numerical advantage but they're not exploiting it.

This is why smart teams make good trades and when they have numerical superiority either from good trades or situationally because a couple enemy are out of position they push hard to exploit it. An advantage is only an advantage if taken. In pug queue the team that sticks together and plays aggressive is almost universally the one that wins. The moment you push and 2 or 3 enemies break to fall back they just handed you a 12 v 9 advantage and more or less ensured your victory.

[Shifty McSwift]

MischiefSC, on 29 April 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

The key is aggression.

Nah, the key is effective communications and teamwork. Being on the offensive vs a team in a good position is a straight up disadvantage. Without comms and actual teamwork any strategy will fall apart, which doesn't mean you will lose necessarily but your odds go down hugely.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

The idea of "not fighting fair" is sure to bring out the salt on the in-game all-chat.....yet it is the time honored way to conduct warfare.

IS teams love their griffins on scouting...so Clan team brings erlarge lights, goes for legs and runs away before they ever get into range....oh the salt

Wave 1 Atlas rushes in FW....taking advantage of the current tonnage discrepancy.....wave 1 light or medium rushes to catch the other team in their "fatties" and make a good tonnage trade.....salt and more salt

When the other team is murdering your team, pushes out too far and you manage to slip guys through and Win by objectives...the cowardice in not letting them win like they deserved to!!! Often mountains of salt

Or just me running around in a cheesy streak-Jenner IIC during the incursion event, because their were so, so many lights to kill. Got 4 solo kills by doing only 260 damage in on match (3 locusts and 1 cheetah)....was ridiculous but hilarious to run.

Point is....this game is the most fun and at its best when we all don't fight fair. We make it so that everything (mechs, builds, tactics) has a counter and fears that counter. We shoot each other in the back, pop-tart, run away from a distadvantaous fight, whatever.

I was in a pug game last night on FW against pre-made. Our mostly skittles team got beat 12-2 first wave attacking vitric. We easily could have just thrown in the towel....The other team pushed out and a couple of us got to the gens by sneaking past them, while some of the team fought and delayed them. We were so far behind mech wise, objectives was the only way to win. In the end, we didn't win...the other team did. What was surprising was that they thanked us post game for basically putting the pressure on them for the last 3 waves. We made the game tense, by being willing to "not fight fair"..,,our PUGs tried fighting fair wave 1. It was a stomp score-wise, but if the other team didn't play the last waves right they could have lost. It made it more fun for them to feel some pressure, I guess

[razenWing]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 29 April 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

The idea of "not fighting fair" is sure to bring out the salt on the in-game all-chat.....yet it is the time honored way to conduct warfare.

IS teams love their griffins on scouting...so Clan team brings erlarge lights, goes for legs and runs away before they ever get into range....oh the salt

Wave 1 Atlas rushes in FW....taking advantage of the current tonnage discrepancy.....wave 1 light or medium rushes to catch the other team in their "fatties" and make a good tonnage trade.....salt and more salt

When the other team is murdering your team, pushes out too far and you manage to slip guys through and Win by objectives...the cowardice in not letting them win like they deserved to!!! Often mountains of salt

Or just me running around in a cheesy streak-Jenner IIC during the incursion event, because their were so, so many lights to kill. Got 4 solo kills by doing only 260 damage in on match (3 locusts and 1 cheetah)....was ridiculous but hilarious to run.

Point is....this game is the most fun and at its best when we all don't fight fair. We make it so that everything (mechs, builds, tactics) has a counter and fears that counter. We shoot each other in the back, pop-tart, run away from a distadvantaous fight, whatever.

I was in a pug game last night on FW against pre-made. Our mostly skittles team got beat 12-2 first wave attacking vitric. We easily could have just thrown in the towel....The other team pushed out and a couple of us got to the gens by sneaking past them, while some of the team fought and delayed them. We were so far behind mech wise, objectives was the only way to win. In the end, we didn't win...the other team did. What was surprising was that they thanked us post game for basically putting the pressure on them for the last 3 waves. We made the game tense, by being willing to "not fight fair"..,,our PUGs tried fighting fair wave 1. It was a stomp score-wise, but if the other team didn't play the last waves right they could have lost. It made it more fun for them to feel some pressure, I guess

None it is invalid. But totally missed the whole point of the thread. Clearly did not bother to read any sentence that I wrote.

2/5 stars

[Marquis De Lafayette]

razenWing, on 29 April 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

None it is invalid. But totally missed the whole point of the thread. Clearly did not bother to read any sentence that I wrote.

2/5 stars

Actually really liked what you wrote. Thought it was well said and had nothing better nothing to add to your thoughts. I was just more broadly commenting on the whole general idea of "fighting fair". Sorry if I distracted from your point OP. Was not trying to sidetrack your discussion.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 29 April 2017 - 08:59 AM.

[Insanity09]

Haven't people heard the phrase, often used in a military context "Don't be a hero"?

This refers to exactly what the OP is getting at. Trying to win against overwhelming odds is something you do only if you are forced to do so.
Though it may work well in movies, in real life Rambo, John McClane (Die Hard), Riddick, or any of a number of action heroes would get crushed like bugs.
"Remember the Alamo"? The outnumbered Texans were killed by the Mexican army. They may have fought well, they were in a good position (fortified, literally), but they all died.

Numbers is a huge advantage. Though each match starts 12 v 12, you can choose tactics, even simple ones, that allow you to get locally superior numbers, and crush the enemy one piece at a time.
A flanking maneuver with a couple fastish mechs that fades away once parts of the enemy team are distracted might be all it takes. (note the fade part, once you are locally outnumbered, you withdraw until you have superior numbers again).
Causing a distraction may not be glorious, but it will get the team wins.

[MischiefSC]

Shifty McSwift, on 29 April 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Nah, the key is effective communications and teamwork. Being on the offensive vs a team in a good position is a straight up disadvantage. Without comms and actual teamwork any strategy will fall apart, which doesn't mean you will lose necessarily but your odds go down hugely.

Comms are always good. However aggression is what gets you into position first or lets you work around good positioning. I would say that it's incredibly rare outside of very competitive matches with good teams on both sides that one team is in a great position that isn't beaten with good aggression.

Aggression isn't about blind pushes - it's about constant pressure and when an opening appears, taking it. In pug queue if 10 of you are willing to deathball and push it'll win almost every time because half the other team breaks and leaves the rest to die.

The OP is exactly correct. The point is always destroy in detail. You win in 3 fights of 12 v 4, not 1 fight of 12 v 12.

Edited by MischiefSC, 29 April 2017 - 09:54 AM.

[fat4eyes]

Yup numbers win 8 times out of 10. There are certain cases where you'd want to engage even when outnumbered though:

1. Delay: sometimes you want to slow down the enemy to give your team an advantage (e.g. so your teammates can take a position, or to save some more valuable teammates who are about to be overrun).

2 Distraction: lights do this all the time. Dive into a full lance of heavies and assaults to draw their attention while the rest of the team pushes. Here you're giving up your individual numbers advantage to give the team a numerical advantage somewhere else.

In both cases though it's still better to come out alive than dead. Dead mechs help noone.