39 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

[Edit]
Jump to this post to know what I tried to say.
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5717265

I will just leave the old first post stand for people to follow what was talked about. You don't have to read whats below this Edit.
[/Edit]


A lot of games have a mechanic that influances how good you can aim. Let it be your own movement, weapon characteristics, range your target is away from you, how long you fire....
They all result in you hitting less.

You can see this in Battlefield, CoD, Crysis... and a lot of other game.
Yet in MWO we don't have this mechanic, all shots are extremly accurate. This leads to Alphas beeing very efficent and that the "time to kill" or TTK is very low. A point PGI is constantly working on in one way or the other.

So why don't take a mechanic, that has proven itself in other games and is a very importend part of the source rules and go with it? Also its allready part of the engine so it should take very little work to implement.
It would take the game closer to the lore and at the same time solve the TTK problem to a good degree.

It would also give room for heat to have another influance other then beeing the on/off switch it is now. (Higher heat would mean less accuracy for those who don't olay the TT)

Alphas would still be a bit of a problem but since they wouldn't be as effective anyway and risking that a missed alpha means the enemy gets a chance to close in while you can't hit a mountain thats in front of you, you might not want to alpha around...except you are Gaussing but that has allways been a problem...yet the Gauss would also be quite likely to miss at max range so ammo becomes a problem, forcing a mixed build...mh would we then maybe see more diverse builds?

When you think about it, this simple mechanic, that is proven and part of the lore and source, could solve a lot.

So vote for it !...as soon as I find out how to make a pool ^_^

Edited by Nesutizale, 29 April 2017 - 06:40 AM.

[Skipmagnet]

Cone of fire? It's been suggested. A lot. There's a very (VERY) vocal group of players that won't even discuss it, and will tell you you're an idiot for even bringing it up. They should be along shortly.

[invernomuto]

Interesting...
It could be implemented with an aiming reticle that "narrows" its lenght the more you have a lock on the target or the more you do not move or going below a certain speed.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

eyeballs, on 29 April 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

Cone of fire? It's been suggested. A lot. There's a very (VERY) vocal group of players that won't even discuss it, and will tell you you're an idiot for even bringing it up. They should be along shortly.

Present!

I dislike cone of fire as a way of spreading damage because damage spreading is already a big part of MWO and a quality skill that people should learn. Making damage spread around cheapens the value of both pure aiming skill and a player's ability to spread incoming damage.

I dislike dumbing things down in such a way and enjoy skill ceilings for people to work towards.

[WarPickle]

But lasers need no aim time just by the mere fact that they are lasers and immediately hit where they are aimed. Missles, well LRM's and SSRMs do have an aim that needs time to lock on already. SRMs they need to be led while moving to get a hit, Ballistics as well.

Not really sure how anything could be implemented on these weapons... unless you just mean more rewards for more accurate shooting but how in the world could you tell? Maybe amount of ammo and amount of actual hits could be an indicator of accuracy. 100 ammo... 50 hits.... 50% accuracy.

But lasers.... maybe amount of shots fired and amount of hits for percentage.

[invernomuto]

WarPickle, on 29 April 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

But lasers need no aim time just by the mere fact that they are lasers and immediately hit where they are aimed.

Agreed, but on realism side, you also should consider convergence... We have perfect istanteneous convergence in MWO. This is wrong IMHO.

[Shifty McSwift]

The only modifier I think I would agree to is some kind of crosshair shake/shudder when near and or overheating or when losing a side torso. STD engines could be buffed to not get shake until they lose both STs mebbe, IDK, that's about the only place I would vote for applying it.

[Nesutizale]

Dakota1000, on 29 April 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

Present!

I dislike cone of fire as a way of spreading damage because damage spreading is already a big part of MWO and a quality skill that people should learn. Making damage spread around cheapens the value of both pure aiming skill and a player's ability to spread incoming damage.

I dislike dumbing things down in such a way and enjoy skill ceilings for people to work towards.

I thinkt he question is how its implemented.
What if heat for example influances how fast your target reticule moves? You would maintain the accuracy but you have to wait a bit to get the reticule to where you want it.

Another way would be that you turn it more into a risk/reward system. Standing, low heat and close range would benefit your aiming, make it so that under ideal conditions you have the aim you have now.

Still it would be so that Gauss/PPC sniping wouldn't be as effective over range as they are now, working a bit against that meta but still keep them vaible.

Overall I would say that the spread is so that a good pilot should be able to hit a target but not to such an extreme the precice location as we have it now. Its sometime quite rediculuse...espacily with the Gauss.
Using doublegauss myself I find it shocking over what ranges I can pinpoint dismantle a target. That isn't good for gameplay and its definitly not Battletech like.

Edited by Nesutizale, 29 April 2017 - 04:36 AM.

[Johnny Z]

The day it couldn't be hacked it may be something worth a chat. The fact is it can and will be. Maybe something as simple as making lag spikes more difficult for legit players or what ever. Don't even suggest there is anything that cant be hacked because that simply isn't true.

This is a very clean game. I like to think I am a favourite of anyone that has cheats ready to go and I still do ok in matches.

I hope it remains that way.

Edited by Johnny Z, 29 April 2017 - 04:43 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

When players think of CoF, they are looking at the result of it being one weapon or a group a weapons, be it ballistics or energy weapons, and not including missiles since they are not pinpoint accuracy. For the non-CoF players

Quote

But lasers need no aim time just by the mere fact that they are lasers and immediately hit where they are aimed.

All the other games has the player firing only one weapon at a time. But as invernomuto pointed out, the lack of convergence. On the other hand, lasers firing from multiple locations hitting the exact same spot while two machines are running (not rolling)? Lasers are a DoT weapon, each "pulse" would move slightly the hit location within the CoF.

But may be the CoF is not needed if the crosshairs would bounce in the same pattern as the mech itself.

In the end though, how difficult/manhours would it take to implement? How would PGI implement it, in that how small/large of a bloom? What would effect it? I will circle back around, how would PGI actually implement it? Would it be to the bloom be set that one would see extreme blooms as seen FPS shoots, or would the bloom be minor, where firing more than one weapon at long range would make it harder to hit a target, whether it was a Gauss Rifle, ERPPC or lasers ?

[Nesutizale]

Reread the post and I can understand the argument about "dumping down" things...so let see.

The lore is basicly that with rising heat the onboard computers and mechanics aren't able to keep up with the pilot of the mech.
So while you might have the best pilot with 100% aim he can't do nothing without a good firing solution from its onboard computer and the arms/torso beeing lined up correctly.

In TT they use modifiers for Range, Movement, Heat and on top of that a hit-table to find out where you hit the target.
So how to represent this in MWO?

Hit-table:
I think this is hardly doable. Sure you could make it so that the game internaly calculates a hitzone but hitting (visualy) the torso and getting a damage in the leg is very off. So the hit-table dosn't work...and I think thats ok.

Movement:
I think we don't need a modifier here. Running around and hitting something is allready complex enough. This shouldn't modify targeting. It also rewards good players for investing the time to become that good. (High respect for some light mech players. I allways puke when I see you in spectator mode )

Range:
The further away something is the harder it is to hit. For this a very narrow cone could be used. It would be in a shape that at close ranges you might hit a bit more left or right but you still hit the zone you targeted, like it is now.
Over medium ranges you might hit a zone left or right of the target, like aiming at the LT and you have a chance to hit the CT or LA. Long ranges is where its more about hit or miss. A quite wide cone that realy gives you a risk not to hit at all.

Another option could be falloff damage to all directfire weapons (Laser, PPC, Gauss, IS AC) and more spread to SRM, LRM, Clan AC....
Point is that ALL weapons would need this without exception.
To me its a pretty uninteresting option because it dosn't solve the sniping/alpha issue as good IMO and dosn't create a risk/reward system where I have to decide between going in closer or try to get the "lucky shot".
Also as mention further down, waiting to get a better targeting solution and exposing myself that way is also even more a risk/reward system to consider.
Both these would be more interesting gameplay wise then "I just fire anyway, dosn't matter I will still do some damage"

Heat:
Heat should modify how fast your mech reacts to your commands. Riding the read line should slow down the crosshair and overall movement. When you run hot, you slow down in speed too.
This isn't directly a targeting modifier but would also seperate a good player from a bad one in the way that you need the experiance how hot you can run and if you have the nerves to pull it through. Also haveing the experiance to when its worth to get the slowdown seperates people.

To offset these changes you could add a mechanic that, the longer you keep your target under the crosshair, the more narrow the cone becomes, going from red (50/50 chance) to yellow and finaly green (100% hitchance)
That would offer a nice risk/reward mechanic and realy show true skilled pilots who not only have the skill to keep on target but also the nerves to wait till the ideal moment.

Overall I think that these changes would be quite nice to reduce the sniping/hiding tactic as people would risk not hitting as much or beeing exposed more to get a better shot.
Alphas have now to consider that the heat would slow them down, so reatreating would be harder and aiming too. So if you don't kill in the first strike you could be in trouble. Again a risk/reward situation.
Also TTK would increase a bit in a brawl as constant fire and theirfore heat could become a problem.

I think overall it would make for a nice risk/reward system that gives a little bit more TTK and wouldn't water down the game. A good player is still needed. Might it be that he has the experiance and nerves to decide when to fire a full alpha or wait till the target is green or be it positioning to have the time to wait to get a green fireing light.
Also teamplay could be promoted in one fireing an alpha, then the next mech comes to cover his retreat.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Yeah, perfect convergence should not be the default. If you really want it, it should be an option akin to Artemis which you can select, increasing the cost and tonnage/crit slots of your weapons in order to add gimballed mounts. Like Art, it's a big enough advantage to be worth buying on some 'mechs, but would have others that don't want/can't use it.

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 29 April 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

Present!

I dislike cone of fire as a way of spreading damage because damage spreading is already a big part of MWO and a quality skill that people should learn. Making damage spread around cheapens the value of both pure aiming skill and a player's ability to spread incoming damage.

I dislike dumbing things down in such a way and enjoy skill ceilings for people to work towards.

Not if CoF is controllable through lock time, mech heat, and movespeed, etc... it will still be skill based.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 April 2017 - 05:42 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

I mean what good would a mech be if it couldn't even fire straight without extreme preparation, in optimal or near conditions aim should be no real issue, but the idea of hindrances effecting it, like how screen shake when hit currently makes PP aiming a nightmare seem fine really.

By that measure I guess it could also apply to moving at "top speed" (at 90% or above for example), as that isn't necessarily optimal conditions.

[Nesutizale]

El Bandito, on 29 April 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Not if CoF is controllable through lock time, mech heat, and movespeed, etc... it will still be skill based.

What I said in a shorter Version

Quote

I mean what good would a mech be if it couldn't even fire straight without extreme preparation, in optimal or near conditions aim should be no real issue

Agreed. At optimal condition it should be like its now but should get more difficulte as the situation become less optimal.

Edited by Nesutizale, 29 April 2017 - 06:32 AM.

[El Bandito]

Shifty McSwift, on 29 April 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

I mean what good would a mech be if it couldn't even fire straight without extreme preparation, in optimal or near conditions aim should be no real issue, but the idea of hindrances effecting it, like how screen shake when hit currently makes PP aiming a nightmare seem fine really.

By that measure I guess it could also apply to moving at "top speed" (at 90% or above for example), as that isn't necessarily optimal conditions.

BT is not based on real life science--it is based on the brains of 80's game developers and novel writers. And in both the novels and the original TT game, perfect convergence with multiple weapons was near impossible to achieve even under the most ideal conditions. And that's what sets BT apart from other sci-fi titles, and that's the type of immersion I wish to experience to a degree. Right now, this instant convergence BS is a big turn off for me (ever since MW4 really, cause that's when my MW multiplayer career had began), since we finally had a multiplayer only MW game.

Just so disappointed that not even progressive heat penalty had carried over from MW4, not to mention water actually slowed down mechs, and mechs actually moved faster when going downhill.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 April 2017 - 06:46 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 29 April 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Not if CoF is controllable through lock time, mech heat, and movespeed, etc... it will still be skill based.

An entirely different set of skills related to simply waiting or knowing to stop before you shoot instead of actually having twitch aiming skills, ability to hold full beam durations onto a single location, leading your enemy perfectly, and on the receiving end knowing how to spread damage perfectly, whether you should deadside or spread to all torso sections, knowing how to jump jet to spread damage to legs properly, twisting in time to dodge incoming shots at long range, etc.

I prefer actually rewarding high skill intensive things. Holding a full beam on a target in a pitched battle where you are overheating and both you and your enemy are running and that one shot is all that matters and your ability to keep that crosshair where it needs to be is what determines if you win or lose is what seems to make a much better game to me rather than robbing the two players of that duel by throwing in a randomized spread because they are moving and running hot.

Personally I like having a bit more action and movement thrown into fights that just won't exist if accuracy gets bad when moving.

[SteelBruiser]

invernomuto, on 29 April 2017 - 04:21 AM, said:

Agreed, but on realism side, you also should consider convergence... We have perfect istanteneous convergence in MWO. This is wrong IMHO.

Yup, realism. With today's technology our tanks can hit moving targets while moving at high rates of speed, our missiles can take town other missiles before they hit their target, and we have aircraft that can destroy tanks, buildings and other structures on the ground from thousands of feet in the air while nearly out of sight of the enemy and we have targeting systems that will allow a fighter jet to simultaneously target, track and launch fire and forget missiles at multiple targets with a respectable hit rate. However, far into the future these guys would never have been able to correct a simple convergence issue? Folks keep trying to devolve the possible technology in these things, as if they could never have improved past the 80286 microprocessor. This mentality is what makes Start Wars so funny to me. Star Wars. A world where highly trained troopers can't hit the broad side of a sand dune with the latest point and shoot technology. Dumbing down the technology only helps the brawlers get more time to get close enough to brawl. In their mind, weapons shouldn't be accurate or effective until you can see the whites of your enemy's eyes. Instead of adapting the new technology or learning to work as a team to overcome the new technology, in other words "Get gud", they'd rather dumb down the game to fit the only way they feel it should be played. Throughout history, the introduction of new technology has forced the development of new tactics to defeat that technology until your side could come out with their own BFG. It's part of what makes life, and a game, dynamic. It keeps it from becoming boring. It's hard to get excited about an new mech when you know the whiners are going to cry until it gets nerfed to play the same as every other mech before it. Woohoo, I got a Kodiak...which now can easily be taken out in short order by a couple locusts...with machine guns...woo...hoo...the excitement. Wow look at those AC20's...cool unless you try to hit a light with them. Even when you hit them they can keep running, they don't even slow down, they aren't even knocked askew. There's something wrong with that picture. Anyway, this game will not really advance until new mechs and technology get to perform like new mechs and technology. And most of these issues come from folks still trying to place turn based board game limitations, where everything is slow and based on your luck with the dice against one enemy at a time, to a real-time dynamic simulation where you face a whole team at once and have to be adept with you keyboard and mouse. That's enough for this rant. Good hunting and I'll see you on the battlefield.

[Shifty McSwift]

El Bandito, on 29 April 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

BT is not based on real life science--it is based on the brains of 80's game developers and novel writers. And in both the novels and the original TT game, perfect convergence with multiple weapons was near impossible to achieve even under the most ideal conditions. And that's what sets BT apart from other sci-fi titles, and that's the type of immersion I wish to experience to a degree. Right now, this instant convergence BS is a big turn off for me (ever since MW4 really, cause that's when my MW multiplayer career had began), since we finally had a multiplayer only MW game.

Just so disappointed that not even progressive heat penalty had carried over from MW4, not to mention water actually slowed down mechs, and mechs actually moved faster when going downhill.

Happens a lot these days with titles that go on for long enough it seems :\

All it takes is a random indi or new/persistent developer/group to set a new trend or keep competition on their toes etc. I don't want to seem insensitive but MWO has always been one of those ongoing, never ending beta style setups (obviously not alpha or pre, just in ideal), which is great for a lot of reasons but is a double edged sword in how it often comes down to a skeleton crew, trickle speed sort of deal.

Despite the flaws (and all games got 'em) there are a lot of amazing aspects to MWO, it may never live up to expectations fully, as games rarely do, but for what it is, it certainly has its charms.

I would honestly suggest just not putting any more money into it, if you feel you have invested a certain amount already and not received the consistent worth. I am going to assume, I think pretty fairly, that you have put more than your fair share into this project already? Just give it your time for a while, if it entertains you enough to want to, and if not, it may just be time to get that perfect fix elsewhere if at all possible.

I mean this with all due respects.

[Nesutizale]

@SteelBruiser

Yah and Battlemechs are real. Don't go into the "realism" territory. Arguing with "thats how the rules of the TT are" or "thats how the novels discribed it" ok, totaly fine but going with realworld is kinda of don't you think?

As for game mechanics. Increasing TTK, alphas and reduce the effectiveness of sniping is an old topic that PGI wants to adresse.
Here is a solution that could work. Yes it would make the current meta less good but dosn't totaly screw over the skill of player.
You will still need to hold your laser at the target, need to know when to turn away/twist and so on but it also introduces a more thinking process over just reflexes.
It might even encurage more diverse builds as pure snipers or alphas get more of a handycap.

Also speaking of TT limits, why do you think I kicked out the hit-table and movement? It dosn't work in MWO but what can work and would improve the game are Range and Heat modifiers.

@TTK isn't low, and we're piloting mechs, not soldiers
You can core mechs in seconds...thats pretty low.

Edited by Nesutizale, 29 April 2017 - 07:24 AM.