172 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

http://www.sarna.net...Rocket_Launcher

(Chart made by Moonlight Grimoire)

Rocket Launchers, in TT, have a couple basic "advantages".

They are cheap, require no complex targeting systems (ideal for low tech units) and deal decent damage for tonnage/crit space investment.

Downside? Well, they are one shot, and done.

And according to yesterday's DevStream, each will use up a Missile Hardpoint.

Well, they are "missile weapons" so what is the problem?

Simply.... that to be effective, really, if you look to any of the Project Phoenix TRO designs, or later MWDA designs featuring RLs, you usually had 10 or more launchers, since once you fired one, it was empty, and thus, useless. Your reload was our next rack. Used that way, or occasionally, as a space filler, they had a place, albeit a limited one, made more relevant by fluff than fact.

I figure offhand about three options (maybe y'all can add more?):

-1) Leave as is, and basicaly ensure they are a waste of Development time
-2) Allow more than one launcher per Missile Hardpoint (not sure how hard this would be to code, but I can't imagine THAT difficult), or
-3) Not be tied to hardpoints at all. (Probably the most "lore correct, but also, most programming unfriendly, option, since MWO does use a "hardpoint base" type system for weapon allocation.)

I want all the goodies, whether Meta Approved or Noob Niche to be added. I just want them to actually be legitimately in the conversation to have SOME value. RLs and Light Ferro lead the pack for IS stuff of "meh to bad" usefulness.

Thoughts?

Also, for those who Tweet:
https://twitter.com/...400752254894080
feel free to join the discussion

*EDIT*
also adding my favorite idea from this thread so far:

Snowbluff, on 29 April 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

How about adding stacks of rocket launcher as a weapon

For example RL20 x2 is a different weapon from RL20, that has twice the ammo weight and slots or something? But you have to fire them in succession?

Similar to my preferred fix for MG arrays. Simply add 3x and 4x MG, L-MG and H-MG as weapon options. Possibly the best, simplest option yet. And one that should be relatively easy to model, too. Elegant in it's simplicity.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 April 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Unique hardpoint, not unlike AMS

Attached, ugly missile pods
Clamped on wherever they fit


Allow them to be taken without sacrifice of actual firepower (mechs with enough Missile hardpoints need to sacrifice their main weapons, mechs with backup hardpoints often don't have enough missile hardpoints to make them worth it)


Making them take Missile hardpoints is logical from an art perspective, assets there (in LRMs), just use them
From a gameplay perspective, just not worth it



It also allows arbitrary limits for whichever mechs, or buff those who need it
10 capacity on the Vindicators anyone?

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 April 2017 - 10:43 AM.

[AncientRaig]

One thing that could be done is to go the MW4 Mercs route. Sure, it's a lot less lore friendly, but it gets around the issue fairly easily. RLs wouldn't be one-shot, but would be rapid fire, high heat, medium damage weapons. An RL-20 for example would have 20 shots instead of firing 20 missiles at once.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 29 April 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

Unique hardpoint, not unlike AMS

Attached, ugly missile pods
Clamped on wherever they fit


Allow them to be taken without sacrifice of actual firepower (mechs with enough Missile hardpoints need to sacrifice their main weapons, mechs with backup hardpoints often don't have enough missile hardpoints to make them worth it)


Making them take Missile hardpoints is logical from an art perspective, assets there (in LRMs), just use them
From a gameplay perspective, just not worth it



It also allows arbitrary limits for whichever mechs, or buff those who need it
10 capacity on the Vindicators anyone?

Would add some serious viability options, at least in some niche uses. Would be fine with. Would make my 1X worth bringing out on occasion, again. Also could see some "Suicide Splat" Cicada applications. 10 RL racks and a coolshot.......

Sidefire, on 29 April 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

One thing that could be done is to go the MW4 Mercs route. Sure, it's a lot less lore friendly, but it gets around the issue fairly easily. RLs wouldn't be one-shot, but would be rapid fire, high heat, medium damage weapons. An RL-20 for example would have 20 shots instead of firing 20 missiles at once.

That's not going to happen, and TBH, I would prefer that they don't...since either they would be poor mans Thunderbolts, or essentially MRMs like that.

[GrimRiver]

I think they need an effect unique only to the RL.

Like armor penetration: Does full missile damage on hit to armor and 1/3 damage bleeds through to structure.

Or something like that.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Rocket Launchers, in TT, have a couple basic "advantages".

They are cheap, require no complex targeting systems (ideal for low tech units) and deal decent damage for tonnage/crit space investment.

Downside? Well, they are one shot, and done.

And according to yesterday's DevStream, each will use up a Missile Hardpoint.

Well, they are "missile weapons" so what is the problem?

Simply.... that to be effective, really, if you look to any of the Project Phoenix TRO designs, or later MWDA designs featuring RLs, you usually had 10 or more launchers, since once you fired one, it was empty, and thus, useless. Your reload was our next rack. Used that way, or occasionally, as a space filler, they had a place, albeit a limited one, made more relevant by fluff than fact.

I figure offhand about three options (maybe y'all can add more?):

-1) Leave as is, and basicaly ensure they are a waste of Development time
-2) Allow more than one launcher per Missile Hardpoint (not sure how hard this would be to code, but I can't imagine THAT difficult), or
-3) Not be tied to hardpoints at all. (Probably the most "lore correct, but also, most programming unfriendly, option, since MWO does use a "hardpoint base" type system for weapon allocation.)

I want all the goodies, whether Meta Approved or Noob Niche to be added. I just want them to actually be legitimately in the conversation to have SOME value. RLs and Light Ferro lead the pack for IS stuff of "meh to bad" usefulness.

Thoughts?

Maybe make them take up, IDK how to do this, half or a third of a hard point? Sure people could then boat them like mad, like they are in lore, but, more effective way to do it would be is put them on volley fire for that hardpoint for convergence sake and use that for their 'cycle time'. This allows for obviously things like the Archer 5W to take instead of 9 RL20's take 18 or 27, but then firing all of them off gets heat restrictive, ghost heating past 4 likely would be sane, or 2 really. Not certain if they can modify "how many hard points this weapon takes up", but, I want to say that is a value they could modify in the code to be a non 1 value and instead .5 or .33 allowing for 2-3 RL's per missile hardpoint.

[LordNothing]

i think i would rather stream fire them but not require you to fire all the rockets in one salvo. have rockets fire one at a time every 0.15 seconds while the button is held. if you fire half your rockets and release you still have the other half. then just increase the rocket damage.

or perhaps fire 5 rockets at a time so you get 2-4 shots depending on launcher size. this would better simulate the tt practice of using a lot of rocket launchers with no hardpoint restrictions.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 April 2017 - 10:55 AM.

[Nesutizale]

- Makeing RL avaible on all hardpoints? That way they could be used as a filler weapon more easly.

- Another idea is to give them a very limited ammo set, like two or three shots at max?

I like the "its own hardpoint" approach. From the art side it would give them a fixed spot to be placed, makeing them an extra box attached to the mech. Giveing it also the look and feel of beeing an cheap add on weapon that they are.

Edited by Nesutizale, 29 April 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[Bud Crue]

For those of us ignorant of the weapon, what are the presumed stats (tonnage, and crits specifically) for these things when applied to MWO?

[Bishop Steiner]

LordNothing, on 29 April 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

i think i would rather stream fire them but not require you to fire all the rockets in one salvo. have rockets fire one at a time every 0.15 seconds while the button is held. if you fire half your rockets and release you still have the other half. then just increase the rocket damage.

or perhaps fire 5 rockets at a time so you get 2-4 shots depending on launcher size. this would better simulate the tt practice of using a lot of rocket launchers with no hardpoint restrictions.

Hmmm, I kind of like this, though if fire at any real range, wouldn't AMS just eat them up like this?

[Mcgral18]

Bud Crue, on 29 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

For those of us ignorant of the weapon, what are the presumed stats (tonnage, and crits specifically) for these things when applied to MWO?

http://www.sarna.net...ket_Launcher_20

1 Dam/missile
1.5 ton RL20
0.5ton RL10

1 Crit per level (10-15-20)

360 max range

[El Bandito]

Another idea is to keep them one-shot and 1 RL per missile hardpoint, but jack up the damage to 1.2 or more and make it FLD. That way it will be a great filler weapon, to be used when the situation is ripe. I know I certainly wouldn't mind having a one-shot RL10 backup that costs mere 0.5 ton, on my Grasshopper's head, while carrying 5 ERLLs. Same deal on my Battlemasters. Plus it will retain its uniqueness.

And it can be a great Heavy/Assault busting tool for Light mechs, which are strapped for tonnage. Might even make a puny mech like Locust-3S deadly if ignored.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 April 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Bud Crue, on 29 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

For those of us ignorant of the weapon, what are the presumed stats (tonnage, and crits specifically) for these things when applied to MWO?

Rocket Launcher 10 - .5 tons - 1 crit - 10 damage - 10 missiles - 1 damage per missile - 3 heat - 540m range - 15,000 cbills
Rocket Launcher 15 - 1 ton - 2 crits - 15 damage - 15 missiles - 1 dmg/missile - 4 heat - 540 to 450m - 30,000 cbills
Rocket Launcher 20 - 1.5 tons - 3 crits - 20 damage - 20 missiles - 1 dmg/missile - 5 heat - 540 to 360m - 45,000 cbills

[Requiemking]

Bud Crue, on 29 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

For those of us ignorant of the weapon, what are the presumed stats (tonnage, and crits specifically) for these things when applied to MWO?

.5 tons, one crit for RL10, 1 ton, 2 crits for RL15, and 1.5 tons, 3 crits for RL20. You can actually fit 4 RL20s and an ERML onto a LCT-3S.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bud Crue, on 29 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

For those of us ignorant of the weapon, what are the presumed stats (tonnage, and crits specifically) for these things when applied to MWO?

http://www.sarna.net...Rocket_Launcher

Honestly Bud, the info is easily found for anyone. Not trying to sound dickish (though probably failing, I'm sure my new stalker will be by to rescue you from my churlish behaviour, shortly), but for someone who does post, comment (and usually well) on stuff in these forums as much as you, you need to favorite Sarna for quick consultation, bro.

Yep, we can piss and moan to our hearts content that PGI doesn't have it all right here for us, (and there is truth to that), but it don't change the ease of access to that info, realistically. Hell I just googled Battletech Rocket Launchers to grab that link.

That said, the number of folks who posted before me shows how easy the info is to grab.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 April 2017 - 11:04 AM.

[Armored Yokai]

PGI should just make 3-5 per missile hardpoint
and make Machine guns 2-3 per ballistic hardpoint

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 29 April 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Another idea is to keep them one-shot and 1 RL per missile hardpoint, but jack up the damage to 1.2 or more and make it FLD. That way it will be a great filler weapon, to be used when the situation is ripe. I know I certainly wouldn't mind having a one-shot RL10 backup that costs mere 0.5 ton, on my Grasshopper's head, while carrying 5 ERLLs. Same deal on my Battlemasters.

And it can be a great Heavy/Assault busting tool for Light mechs.

Interesting, though IDK if it really is enough to bridge the gap. But I'd test it. Especially with LRM5s and SRM4s being less the "go to" than they once were.

RLs having a better cluster effect (maybe RL20 gets a spread like an aSRM6?) than SRMs might also help. I'd rather have them group tighter, than do more damage, if I had to choose one or the other, for effectiveness, ya know?

Armored Yokai, on 29 April 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

PGI should just make 3-5 per missile hardpoint
and make Machine guns 2-3 per ballistic hardpoint

for machine guns they should at lest just add 3 MG and 4MG arrays as option. Maybe the array would require more CoF to return, IDK, maybe not. But it would seem the simple way to defeat their issues with implementing MG arrays.

[FupDup]

My idea from another thread:

• The Rocket Launcher comes default with enough free "ghost ammo" to fire exactly one salvo. This means that TT stock builds with RL's are untouched.
  
• You can equip additional Rocket Launcher ammo as you wish so that you can fire more than once.
  
• The weapons will have fairly long cooldowns (most lightweight weapons in this game have fast cooldowns, for reference) to preserve the "flavor" of high burst damage for low tonnage. Basically the missile equivalent of Heavy Lasers.
  
• The lengthy cooldown also represents the very crappy bare-minimum junky reloading mechanism that you install if you decide to take extra ammo.
  
• Not sure about stream fire or not. I guess try it to help keep them more distinct from SRMs and make super crazy oneshots less likely.
  
• Spooky Heat may need to be involved to deter people from loading up a mech with nothing but Rocket Launchers as a missile equivalent of the Dire Star mech.

Basically I'm trying to find a halfway point between keeping the emphasis on burst damage while also breaking the lore a little to allow more than one shot if you spend some more weight on ammo.

Edited by FupDup, 29 April 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[Nesutizale]

From the images they showed the RL seams to have smaller missiles that are more tightly packed. Might point to them beeing fired in a thighter way with less spread? Just guessing here.

Also I think they should fire in one salvo as AMS would eat them otherwise. It allready feels like smaller Clan LRMs (5+10) don't get through at all.

[LordNothing]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Hmmm, I kind of like this, though if fire at any real range, wouldn't AMS just eat them up like this?

maybe give the rockets more hitpoints so ams has a harder time killing all of the rockets. or give them some splash so that if ams takes them out they explode and cause a smaller amount of damage.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 April 2017 - 11:08 AM.