36 replies to this topic

[Trev Firestorm]

SaintLucifer, on 30 April 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

You mean this https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf that was posted on the PTS 2 post? As you can see the AS7 will not lose any defensive quirk, just some minor weapon ones, that are becoming skills.

Problem is, the quirks are not becoming skills because every mech has equal access to them and quirks were there to boost mechs that were hurting.

[oldradagast]

Trev Firestorm, on 30 April 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

Problem is, the quirks are not becoming skills because every mech has equal access to them and quirks were there to boost mechs that were hurting.

Thank you - that's the point I'm trying to drive home to the people here.

I don't care if you can "kind of" rebuild all the quirks on your crappy IS mech with the skill maze because the powerful Clan meta-mech of similar tonnage that is ALREADY more competitive WITHOUT quirks also has access to the skill maze and can thus be more powerful than the IS mech after it goes through the skill maze.

The point is that removing quirks from already mediocre mechs that have trouble against quirk-free meta mechs kills those mechs completely. For every skill point you can gain to rebuild your crappy, quirk-dependent mech, the meta-mech can get a skill point to gain quirks he never had before and thus continue to perform better than the quirk-dependent mech.

Edited by oldradagast, 30 April 2017 - 10:23 AM.

[Elizander]

Queen of England, on 30 April 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

I don't think he's saying that - his point is this is happening, we can't stop it, so we need to plan to deal with it.

We're treating the skill tree like a natural disaster and helping each other with boarding up windows and putting up sandbags.

In that spirit, something like this looks like a good "generic" skill tree.



I've purchased all the agility and survival (minus all the trash nodes that don't gate anything) and all the sensors needed to get full seismic sensors and radar derp.

If PGI would just let us save skill templates I'd just apply this to all my 'mechs and save about 8000 clicks (depending on how many clicks saving a template costs).

Template is a good idea.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

oldradagast, on 30 April 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

- Take a look at any most of the lights. What the hell use is a Locust going to be with it's 80% acceleration and deceleration quirks reduced to ZERO? One could argue they might be a bit too mobile now, but come on!

- Mediums are in a similar boat. Nice seeing my Hunchbacks will drive like a truck now with a 30% to 35% reduction in Yaw and Turn Rate. Because having a sluggish brawling mech is totally viable in MWO... not...

Except that the locust's quirks were rolled into it's agility so guess what, you lost 0 agility, what you lost was the ability to have a .5s ERLL burn on one of the locusts. Most lights lost no mobility, and, in fact, the Urbanmech gained mobility.

Unfortunately PGI took down the PTS so you couldn't actually sit down and you know try the skill tree itself to see most mechs handled as they handled before with the exception of a few. But your IS Hunchbacks getting nerfed? So did the IIC's in the same way, that I am glad of, those ******* things were too good.

As for the Quirk changes of axing offensive quirks? PGI for some mind numbing reason rolled in quirk changes to prepare for new tech dropping (which they don't even have hard numbers for at this point) into a PTS unrelated to that. Because PGI couldn't do that in June Patch or July Patch or separately in the May patch, nope, got to throw it into the PTS and make people wonder why they are losing quirks beyond what they can regain via the tree. 'Good' old PGI. As it is, 50% PPC velocity was insane as that put's it at 1,800m/s for normal PPC's and 1,950m/s for ERPPC's which is GR velocities for a weapon system that is nominally being used at 500m-700m (which ideally the velocity would be 1,500m/s, which 20% nearly gets to, 30% would be ideal though for 1,560m/s).

[Cato Phoenix]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 30 April 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Except that the locust's quirks were rolled into it's agility so guess what, you lost 0 agility, what you lost was the ability to have a .5s ERLL burn on one of the locusts. Most lights lost no mobility, and, in fact, the Urbanmech gained mobility.

Unfortunately PGI took down the PTS so you couldn't actually sit down and you know try the skill tree itself to see most mechs handled as they handled before with the exception of a few. But your IS Hunchbacks getting nerfed? So did the IIC's in the same way, that I am glad of, those ******* things were too good.

I mean, did you test it? Agility was objectively worse for locusts, and the majority of other mechs I tested.

Plus, if there's 0 change to agility, as you suggest, then locusts should get -faster- with the skill tree adding bonuses. But they didn't. Mechs are not as mobile as before. Period.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

I did test it, I didn't feel much lost agility in a locust. I mostly felt it in my King Crab, in my Archer, in my clan heavy omni's. Pretty much anything over 65 tons I felt it in the torso twist outside of the Cyclops which was nimble as all hell. You might be having a perceptual bias against the system, if they do another test, get some software and go on PTS, take an unskilled locust, max engine, record moving around. Then skill it up, record, then grab on the live client maxed out mastered locust, same variant, move around as well, do the same movements as much as possible to not bias the data, and compare.

[Scyther]

@Cato Phoenix: Keep in mind that engine de-sync is in the same PTS/patch (I think). That means if you are testing a significantly up-engine mech, it's going to lose agility back to its 'baseline'. Then you apply the Skill Tree boosts which, again depending on how much up-engining you did before and how many skill tree agility nodes you purchase, may leave you short, about the same, or in some cases more agile.

As Moonlight pointed out, perception bias can be significant. You probably want to try something like circling a stationary object (that has some nearby reference markers) at top speed to measure the difference in turning radius, start/stop time, and speed. (Assuming we get another PTS run, which I actually doubt)

By the way, how many/which of the Agility/Mobility nodes did you put on the mechs you tested?

Edited by MadBadger, 01 May 2017 - 12:17 PM.

[Druarc]

I run one of my ravines as a spotter, this is some of the points I'm think for it.
[color=#000000]

84

unlocked nodes[/color]
Anchor Turn +15% Arm Pitch +12% Armor Hardening +17% Enhanced ECM +45% Hard Brake +20% Kinetic Burst +25% Radar Deprivation +100% Reinforced Casing −8% Seismic Sensor +200 Sensor Range +15% Shock Absorbance −50% Skeletal Density +32% Speed Tweak +7.5% Target Decay +3.5 Target Info Gathering +12% Target Retention +200 Torso Pitch +8% Torso Speed +8% Torso Yaw +4%

[VanillaG]

oldradagast, on 30 April 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

Thank you - that's the point I'm trying to drive home to the people here.

I don't care if you can "kind of" rebuild all the quirks on your crappy IS mech with the skill maze because the powerful Clan meta-mech of similar tonnage that is ALREADY more competitive WITHOUT quirks also has access to the skill maze and can thus be more powerful than the IS mech after it goes through the skill maze.

The point is that removing quirks from already mediocre mechs that have trouble against quirk-free meta mechs kills those mechs completely. For every skill point you can gain to rebuild your crappy, quirk-dependent mech, the meta-mech can get a skill point to gain quirks he never had before and thus continue to perform better than the quirk-dependent mech.

The majority of the offensive quirks that were removed/reduced were either minor quirks or just an overall reduction across all mechs. Keep in mind that PGI stated that these changes were in anticipation of the new Tech coming out in 10 weeks. That new tech will do more to bridge the gap between IS and Clans than any quirks because the IS gets a bunch of catch up tech as well as some unique weapons. It should be a fun time on July 18 to pilot IS mechs again with all the new shinies we will have access to.

[Scyther]

@Druarc:

Okay, looks like you are picking up more Anchor Turn, Armor, Structure, Hard Brake, Kinetic Burst and Shock Absorbance than is currently possible, which will clearly help a Spotter Raven. You've also got some Crit defense in Reinf. Casing although hard to tell how useful that will be.

You're getting full Radar Dep, full Seismic, some Sensor Range, Some Target Decay, some Target Retention, some Target Info Gathering, so you've basically got the equivalent of 4 Sensor Modules fit on it. Although the Seismic and Sensor Range boosts are't quite as large as current modules give.

Speed Tweak keeps current value, and not sure how your Torso Speed/Pitch/Yaw compares to current but it is probably equal or better.

My question would be, what is your Raven losing in this process, and do you feel it is a good or bad change for the mech?

[MrJeffers]

MadBadger, on 30 April 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

So I decided to get started with an example. I don't play most of my mechs, and what I do play, is mostly because I bought a new mech for whatever reason (often just to throw some $$ PGI's way to let them know I think they've done something right) and need to level it.

Bought the WarHammer pack a while back, liked the BW, play it from time to time. Checked the quirk changes on this link: https://static.mwome...Final%20PTS.pdf

For those who may have missed it, that comes from the informative PTS post: https://mwomercs.com...-test-session-2

Looks like my Black Widow will lose 10% Ballistic Velocity quirk and its 30% PPC Velocity will be trimmed down to 10%. The Energy Heat, Energy Range, and Structure bonuses all stay the same. (Edit: I checked wrong Quirk list earlier, latest says BW will lose its 10% Accel/Decel/Torso Turn boost as well)

<snip>

The part that is missing from this all, is that the boosts that IS mechs have now is over the existing baseline of IS and Clan mechs. So the Black Widow to be competitive with say the Night Gyr/Timber Clan mechs has 10% better ballistic velocity, and 30% better PPC velocity. In the new system it loses the ballistic bonus entirely and most of the PPC bonus relative to the Clan mechs because the clan mechs get access to the same nodes as the Black widow. The Best advantage it can hold over a similar configured Clan mech is 10% PPC velocity. So its still is a 10% velocity nerf on ACs and a 20% PPC velocity nerf relative to clans that it can't get back.

To get the full picture you have to not only look at the old versus new skills on that mech, but also have to view what it has gained/lost in comparison to it's competition. And this is why the IS losing all these quirks means IS mechs are getting screwed. The relative gains that they have in the current system are either eliminated or reduced vs their competition, which means an overall loss balance wise.

Edited by MrJeffers, 01 May 2017 - 12:57 PM.

[Scyther]

Right, well, it's cool that you brought up that point, that's been brought up literally dozens of times, to throw in with. However, Skill Tree 2 is coming in a month or so regardless of what it does to IS/Clan balance. And there are some global heat management nerfs being throw in with Skill Tree 2 that may or may not affect the balance again. And a month or three later new tech is being added in that will affect the balance again. And a few months after that, PGI will probably start making balance change passes.

It is no longer a question of 'is this a good change or a bad change'. It is a matter of 'this change is coming. Soon. What are we going to do with it?'

My Black Widow example shows that, for me at least, my BW will still be perfectly playable, it isn't getting nerfed into oblivion, and it will even have some bonuses over what it currently has. If you think your IS mechs will be useless against Clan mechs, then build an IS mech and show us. Build a Dread Night Gyr and show us how OP it is.

Edited by MadBadger, 01 May 2017 - 01:13 PM.

[A Man In A Can]

Hey Mad, just wanted to say it is refreshing to see your position on the matter and I too have reached the conclusion you have reached. Kudos for starting a thread about it. May you continue to have the energy to sustain it.

I also greatly appreciate the link to the mock skill web site. It's like the smurfy for skill paths. Very convenient, and the word should definitely be spread about that site so that more players can be prepared ahead of time for the change.

[SFC174]

For my ARC5W - SRM4 brawler

PTS - 91 unlocked nodes Anchor Turn +20% Arm Pitch +12% Armor Hardening +10.2% Consumable Slot +1 Cool Run +6% Cooldown −3.6% Hard Brake +10% Heat Containment +15% Heat Gen −4% High Explosive +3% Hill Climb +10% Improved Gyros −35% Kinetic Burst +20% Missile Rack +1 Missile Spread −2% Quick Ignition −14% Radar Deprivation +80% Range +9% Reinforced Casing −6% Seismic Sensor +100 Sensor Range +15% Shock Absorbance −20% Skeletal Density +16% Speed Retention +20% Speed Tweak +4.5% Target Decay +1.4 Target Info Gathering +9% Target Retention +200 Torso Pitch +2% Torso Speed +4% Torso Yaw +2% Velocity +6%

Vs live server mastered + quirks + modules (SRM4 range/cooldown, radar derp, seismic) Anchor Turn +5+50% Arm Pitch +5% Armor Hardening +0% Consumable Slot +1 Cool Run +15% Cooldown −17% Hard Brake +15+60% Heat Containment +20% Heat Gen 0% High Explosive 0% Hill Climb 0% Improved Gyros 0% Kinetic Burst +15+60% Missile Rack 0 Missile Spread 0% Quick Ignition −33% Radar Deprivation +100% Range +10% Reinforced Casing 0% Seismic Sensor +250 Sensor Range 0% Shock Absorbance 0% Skeletal Density 0% Speed Retention 0% Speed Tweak +7.5% Target Decay 0 Target Info Gathering 0% Target Retention 0 Torso Pitch 0% Torso Speed +5% Torso Yaw +5% Velocity 0%

Biggest obvious nerfs for me on the PTS were the reduced accel/decel/turn, missile cooldown, and heat issues. The mech felt sluggish, slow to fire and ran hotter.

Biggest gains were the survivability improvements. For brawling the extra armor is nice to have. The ARC5W already has structure quirks so I didn't notice the skeletal density or reinforced casing even though the effect should have been bigger than the armor gains. I also liked the increased ammo.

Things I didn't really notice but that might have an effect later were the radar derp and seismic nerfs (I'm thinking the seismic might really hurt in a full on brawl on HPG or River City), the missile spread buff and the addition of target retention (which could be useful trying to nail a backbiting locust).

Overall though, the PTS felt like a major nerf in terms of my playstyle for that mech. Some of the stuff that I picked up (hill climb, speed retention, gyros) I would have never used before and really added nothing to my game. If I didn't have to take those, I could probably have taken enough other stuff to call the PTS a wash with the exception of the chassis specific mobility nerfs. For the unquirked Clan mechs I played, the PTS still felt sluggish, but the nerfs were generally offset by the durability buffs.

While I don't like the new skill tree and it seems rather pointless to improving game play as currently structured, if they kept more IS quirks it would be hard to complain about balance with the new skill tree, but overall I still feel like quality of play is worse. But as long as IS is getting nerfed, its a big balance issue.

[MrJeffers]

MadBadger, on 01 May 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

Right, well, it's cool that you brought up that point, that's been brought up literally dozens of times, to throw in with. However, Skill Tree 2 is coming in a month or so regardless of what it does to IS/Clan balance. And there are some global heat management nerfs being throw in with Skill Tree 2 that may or may not affect the balance again. And a month or three later new tech is being added in that will affect the balance again. And a few months after that, PGI will probably start making balance change passes.

It is no longer a question of 'is this a good change or a bad change'. It is a matter of 'this change is coming. Soon. What are we going to do with it?'

My Black Widow example shows that, for me at least, my BW will still be perfectly playable, it isn't getting nerfed into oblivion, and it will even have some bonuses over what it currently has. If you think your IS mechs will be useless against Clan mechs, then build an IS mech and show us. Build a Dread Night Gyr and show us how OP it is.

Just use the exact same build as on your BW, the clans get the exact same quirks.Then compare that to the quirks that are on live now of the BW vs the Night Gyr (e.g. no quirks what so ever). It's overall a net loss for the BW because the clans *gain* all the weapon quirks they don't have now.

If you don't think that makes a difference in balance, you're in for a big surprise post skill tree launch.

Edited by MrJeffers, 01 May 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[oldradagast]

MrJeffers, on 01 May 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

Just use the exact same build as on your BW, the clans get the exact same quirks.Then compare that to the quirks that are on live now of the BW vs the Night Gyr (e.g. no quirks what so ever). It's overall a net loss for the BW because the clans *gain* all the weapon quirks they don't have now.

If you don't think that makes a difference in balance, you're in for a big surprise post skill tree launch.

Balance will be wrecked, but there's not much to do about it. While I don't agree with simply accepting this since there's no reason to believe the game will be much fun at all to play after the skill maze goes live (unless you already just play Clan meta-mechs), I do agree that Badger is right in saying we're stuck with it.

I consider this whole mess a disgraceful example of PGI's utter contempt for their community and a prime example of their staggering lack of even basic game design skills - you couldn't pay me to sign off on that skill maze even 20 years ago! - but, as others have said, we're stuck with it.

Enjoy the game while it lasts, but keep your hopes low and you won't be disappointed, I guess.

Edited by oldradagast, 01 May 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Druarc]

MadBadger, on 01 May 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

@Druarc:

Okay, looks like you are picking up more Anchor Turn, Armor, Structure, Hard Brake, Kinetic Burst and Shock Absorbance than is currently possible, which will clearly help a Spotter Raven. You've also got some Crit defense in Reinf. Casing although hard to tell how useful that will be.

You're getting full Radar Dep, full Seismic, some Sensor Range, Some Target Decay, some Target Retention, some Target Info Gathering, so you've basically got the equivalent of 4 Sensor Modules fit on it. Although the Seismic and Sensor Range boosts are't quite as large as current modules give.

Speed Tweak keeps current value, and not sure how your Torso Speed/Pitch/Yaw compares to current but it is probably equal or better.

My question would be, what is your Raven losing in this process, and do you feel it is a good or bad change for the mech?

I think it's all good still have a few points to spend on it. This build is for team play only and this will make it really hard to see or sneak up on.